Long term plan - the future of BoS?

[Reflected]

I was thinking yesterday: imagine that by the summer of 2014 BoS is released as a great game, all the bugs ironed out, everything working properly, etc...

 

The battle of Stalingrad is not a very long period, and kind of limited if we compare it to WWI. In RoF you can fight through the war - at least the second half - in plenty of different scenarios. You can be an Eindecker pilot in 1916, fly bombers, scouts, seaplanes, whetever you want. What about BoS? 30-40 missions in a 109 over the snowy ruins of the city and that's it?

 

I'm hoping that it will be extended to a more "general" Eastern front game, for example the battle of Kursk as a sequel. That way you could really enjoy a long career, and it would offer versatility too.

 

I really hope it won't be abandoned and left like this after release.

[Foobar]

In BoS we trust.

[ATAG_Slipstream]

I don't know, I've been fighting the Battle of Britain now for a couple of years now and that only lasted a few weeks in reality

[Quax]

I think there is already some work done for other places. I would be surprised, if this will not be used some day ...

[Rama]

It only depends on game success.

[Fifi]

I'm hoping that it will be extended to a more "general" Eastern front game, for example the battle of Kursk as a sequel. That way you could really enjoy a long career, and it would offer versatility too.

 

 

That's how i see it (well, greatly hope)

Because Stalingrad area could be boring after a year or 2...

 

 

 

 What about BoS? 30-40 missions in a 109 over the snowy ruins of the city and that's it?

 

According to Rudel's testimony, it was often around 10 missions a day on the East front!

Even up to 17 missions some bad days, for Stuka pilots 

[Reflected]

It only depends on game success.

 

Fingers crossed, then!

 

 

According to Rudel's testimony, it was often around 10 missions a day on the East front!

Even up to 17 missions some bad days, for Stuka pilots

 

Holy Molly! 

[unreasonable]

Perhaps this limitation is part of the price we pay for more detailed maps, scenarios, plane models etc.

 

In IL2 FB you use Lohengrin's DCG and construct a career on the eastern front from Lvov, Kiev, Crimea, Smolensk and Leningrad if you had the inclination. Of course the maps were 1/2 size and very simple by comparison to BoS. But much innocent pleasure could be had SP.

 

I fear that by the time that the team get round to a few more maps I will be too doddery to fly.

[Finkeren]

If BoS breaks even or maybe even starts generating profit, I have confidence, that we'll see much more of the Eastern Front. Right now we are talking about a sim that isn't even halfway done. Once the basics are in place, and everything works like it's supposed to, adding new content may be time consuming but not exactly difficult.

 

Comparing the scope to RoF is not exactly comparing apples and oranges but something like grapefruit vs. oranges. When RoF first launched it had 4 flyable aircraft, 1 static campaign and a stripped down random mission generator functioning as a placeholder career mode. Eventually we got more campaigns, a fairly fleshed out semi-dynamic career mode (which is still considered a beta), a large hangar full of interesting and unique plane types and at last another large map. Almost all of RoF up to that point took place on one static map, which was continuously improved but never really expanded upon. This was somewhat defensible (but not completely) due to the relatively static conditions on the Wester Front in WW1, but in BoS it's a completely different story. It is covering a war, where the front lines moved tremendously over the course of mere months, which puts the devs in something of a conundrum: It is extremely time consuming to make the large maps of thousands of square miles, which are necessary for accurate portrayal of WW2 air combat, but it is absolutely required to expand the sim beyond a few months of operations, at the same time players will be clamoring for more planes to be added, which also takes away rescources.

 

The devs could have gone another way and made a map, that might last somewhat longer. A map of the Leningrad area would have given close to 3 years of operations, and the Rzhev area would have given at least 2. They propably chose Stalingrad for the name recognition and because the air war was rather intense and neatly divided into different chapters, which makes it posible to construct a limited but highly dramatic campaign. Kursk, Bagration or the defense of Moscow might have given the same opportunities, but one can't really blame them for going for the obvious.

 

There is no question, that BoS is going to be a far more polished and complete product, when it is released, than RoF was back in 2009 (to say nothing of ClOD) but the happy days of the old IL2, where new content was so relatively simple to make, that the sky was the limit in terms of maps and planes, are completely over.

 

All things considered, BoS isn't really gonna be too different in scope from ClOD: A limited set of planes (all of them flyable), a limited timespan of a few months, an intense, high stakes battle divided into distinct chapters etc. To my knowledge it wasn't really the limited scope that caused simmers to abandon ClOD in droves, so that it never got to be expanded upon.

Edited January 20, 2014 by Finkeren

[6./ZG26_Emil]

I was thinking yesterday: imagine that by the summer of 2014 BoS is released as a great game, all the bugs ironed out, everything working properly, etc...

 

The battle of Stalingrad is not a very long period, and kind of limited if we compare it to WWI. In RoF you can fight through the war - at least the second half - in plenty of different scenarios. You can be an Eindecker pilot in 1916, fly bombers, scouts, seaplanes, whetever you want. What about BoS? 30-40 missions in a 109 over the snowy ruins of the city and that's it?

 

I'm hoping that it will be extended to a more "general" Eastern front game, for example the battle of Kursk as a sequel. That way you could really enjoy a long career, and it would offer versatility too.

 

I really hope it won't be abandoned and left like this after release.

 

It's funny when the original IL2 came out I was a bit disappointed as I'd spend my entire youth reading about the air-war over Europe and I had very little knowledge about the Eastern Front. For some reason I didn't like the look of Yaks and the red star did nothing for me even when it was in my gunsights. The IL2 release corresponded with my finishing my Masters Degree so once I got a job (one that game me a lot of time to read) I found I really missed having something to study so I started reading political history and when I started playing IL2 I started reading up on the Eastern Front. I'd always pined for a BOB sim but was sorely disappointed with CLOD as it really didn't reproduce the actual battle. Now I look back to those early years of IL2 with fond memories and I would love to see the Eastern Front fleshed out in detail rather than progressing quickly on to P51s and Spitfires....again.

[6./ZG26_Emil]

 

All things considered, BoS isn't really gonna be too different in scope from ClOD: A limited set of planes (all of them flyable), a limited timespan of a few months, an intense, high stakes battle divided into distinct chapters etc. To my knowledge it wasn't really the limited scope that caused simmers to abandon ClOD in droves, so that it never got to be expanded upon.

but the happy days of the old IL2, where new content was so relatively simple to make, that the sky was the limit in terms of maps and planes, are completely over.

 

I have the opposite memories to be honest. It felt that IL2 went hyper with the addition of planes and maps and focusing too much on numbers of aircraft rather than quality and they didn't go back to fix the FM of certain aircraft which were game breaking in my memories. Once the number of aircraft got so big it was impossible to address problem FMs that seemed to crop up over and over again.

 

I like the approach we have right now with the limited aircraft and maps providing they will make sure they address FM issues as they crop up. I would be happy with similar sized additional packs of aircraft and maps being released ever year (or quicker) so we've always got something to look forward to. In the short term I'd been keen to see an autumn Stalingrad map so we can flesh out a campaign.

[Matt]

I think the BoS and RoF maps are roughly comparable.

 

The RoF map is basically just a 1918 map, based on the frontline. Recreating battles which took place in 1916 or 1917 (Battle of Cambrai for instance) was almost impossible. The Stalingrad map has no fixed frontline and could be used to create more flexible (even if unhistorical) missions.

 

Also the BoS lasted roughly 6 months, that's quite long for an individual battle and about as long as the RoF map practically covers. Of course we'll only have the Winter map for now. An autumn map would help. But i think there's still some room for very different mission setups. The area to the west of Stalingrad is pretty big and can probably stand in for different battles (again, even if unhistorical, what-if scenarios).

[Georgio]

I think it was brought up a few months ago that if BoS is a commercial success then there are other theatres that could form the basis of an on-going WW2 flight sim theme.

So the operative words there being 'commercial success' which I'm sure it will be assuming the resident detractors of this sim don't put off prospective buyers with their selfish whining.

[FlatSpinMan]

Based upon pretty much nothing at all, my guesstimate is:

- expand Stalingrad with a summer and autumn map (started late Sept????)

 

- offer a new 'battle' on the Eastern Front - any one recall the theatre? Kuban? with a few key lend-lease planes

 

-perhaps one more Eastern expansion to make use of the existing plane set, textures, objects etc

 

- go west! With probable pre-existing plane set including (in my little fantasy world) 109F/GS, 190s before the major change (A8?), Ju88, He111, Stuka Dora, Mitchell, Havoc, Tomahawk, Airacobra, perhaps a Spitfire here, a Hurricane there, I know which scenario comes to my mind...

 

-add the P38, some mountains, ships and landing craft,mayhaps a carrier or two,and you've got Torch/Tunisia. Also a chance to reuse some Italian types from the East, perhaps.

 

- next, slide up to Italy, add in the Liberator (i wouldnt complain if they added it earlier), Jug and more P38s, later mark Gustav's

 

- then all you have to do is make all of western Europe in high detail with all seasons plus the developments brought about by the Western Allies invasion, make heavy bombers and their bases in Britain, a few more marks of Jugs and Mustangs, the Mosquito, the Marauder,and boom! Just like that you have much of the Western Front - easy!

 

Probably be done by Christmas.

2015 can see them turn their attentions to the PTO. Start either late with the Jugs and Stang's from Chichijima, or early with the Tomahawk and early Burris (if they do Burma).

 

Then in 2016...

[I./ZG1_HeTzeR]

And the 190D the Me262 the 109 K the Me163, B17 B24 and a He177 Do17 (117 217) :D 

[I/JG27_Rollo]

Based upon pretty much nothing at all, my guesstimate is:

- expand Stalingrad with a summer and autumn map (started late Sept????)

- offer a new 'battle' on the Eastern Front - any one recall the theatre? Kuban? with a few key lend-lease planes

-perhaps one more Eastern expansion to make use of the existing plane set, textures, objects etc

- go west! With probable pre-existing plane set including (in my little fantasy world) 109F/GS, 190s before the major change (A8?), Ju88, He111, Stuka Dora, Mitchell, Havoc, Tomahawk, Airacobra, perhaps a Spitfire here, a Hurricane there, I know which scenario comes to my mind...

-add the P38, some mountains, ships and landing craft,mayhaps a carrier or two,and you've got Torch/Tunisia. Also a chance to reuse some Italian types from the East, perhaps.

- then all you have to do is make all of western Europe in high detail with all seasons plus the developments brought about by the Western Allies invasion, make heavy bombers and their bases in Britain, a few marks of Jugs and Mustangs, the Mosquito, the Marauder,and boom! Just like that you have much of the Western Front - easy!

 

Probably be done by Christmas.

So we can expect all of your "Luftwaffe-Pilot" and "RAF-Pilot" campaigns redone by new year's eve yes?

[Zoring]

It's funny when the original IL2 came out I was a bit disappointed as I'd spend my entire youth reading about the air-war over Europe and I had very little knowledge about the Eastern Front. For some reason I didn't like the look of Yaks and the red star did nothing for me even when it was in my gunsights...

 

I had almost the exact same experience, I knew almost nothing about the Eastern Front at all in general, including its significance to the entire war. Really was an eye opener for me Glad to be back.

[FlatSpinMan]

And the 190D the Me262 the 109 K the Me163, B17 B24 and a He177 Do17 (117 217) :D

 

Well OBVIOUSLY! They'll already have the Do17 and 217 from Ostfront 2 or 3 even if its not right because I've always wanted to shoot that type down. It'll be the work of a moment to build the 163, convert the 109G to the K, stretch out the 190 and whack in a Jumo from the Ju88 in Ostfront 2, Lib comes in around Tunisia, as does the B17. Why, this game is practically building itself!

[DD_Crash]

Sounds like a plan FSM.

[FlatSpinMan]

Simple when you think about it. I'm an ideas man, see.

Tomorrow I'm curing cancer, then after morning tea I'll get cracking on mortality in general.

[Skoshi_Tiger]

It took the original IL2 over 10 years to mature and reach it's peak. Hopefully in 10 years time we'll be looking forward to the next great installment! 

 

I'm pretty sure that Intel announced a few weeks ago that by 2024 their processors will have more transistors than the Human brain has synapses. Just imagine the possibilities!

[Finkeren]

I'm gonna be that obnoxious guy, who says, that I don't hope to see anything Western Front-related before the Eastern Front is well covered, which in my book means about as extensive as IL2 was at the time of Forgotten Battles.

 

Moving on to another theatre means that you more or less start all over again content-wise and render at least half the vehicles you've modelled useless in the new theatre.

[71st_AH_Hooves]

Well doesnt 1cgs already have all the artwork from the cancelled BoM ? So they should have alot of work already completed for a summer map. I think well see much more eastern front battles.

[Rama]

Well doesnt 1cgs already have all the artwork from the cancelled BoM ? So they should have alot of work already completed for a summer map. I think well see much more eastern front battles.

I'm not sure if anything can be recycled.... everything is different (objects vector specification, texture size and numbers, formats, etc....)

[BeastyBaiter]

My main concern is the aircraft. I may get crucified for this here, but to me dirt is dirt and snow is snow. Whether the map labels the town I'm flying over as Moscow, Stalingrad, Leningrad or Berlin makes little difference to me. That said I would like a summer map and a little more variety. As such, I actually prefer maps that are only roughly similar to the real world area they try to represent. It's a lot quicker to make a semi historical map than to try to recreate each individual building and street. I want the time and effort put into the planes, not some dinky farm house I'm only going to see once while going 700km/h strafing a column of trucks.

 

So with that in mind, I would be completely fine with making a summer version of a current map (literally just retexture it) and extend the game back in time 6 months. With additional planes, this would fill out that part of the war nicely. It could then be moved on to Kuban or elsewhere. With any new map, I would suggest merely trying to match topography and basic town/road structure. By that I mean their locations and approximate size. The towns need not look anything like the real thing at the time. Only their location and general size needs to be correct. This is how maps were made in IL2 and they churned out a lot of them. I don't recall too much complaining about their accuracy. This is a CFS, not google maps.

[FuriousMeow]

 

So with that in mind, I would be completely fine with making a summer version of a current map (literally just retexture it) and extend the game back in time 6 months. With additional planes, this would fill out that part of the war nicely.

 

Well, gotta pay for the additional work - so with those additional planes I'm betting that's their plan. An expansion of the battle, introduce new planes, pay for them, and enjoy far more.

 

This stuff ain't free.

Edited January 20, 2014 by FuriousMeow

[BeastyBaiter]

Of course. I'd like to see regular packs available for purchase. So maybe a Stalingrad summer pack for next January, then a Kuban map for summer 2015, North Africa the following winter and so on. My point was mostly that they took a staggering amount of time to build the channel map for RoF and are likely doing the same with the Stalingrad map. I think this time could be better spent on other things while also shortening the release cycle.

[LLv44_Mprhead]

I wouldn't mind having Stalingrad: The Prequel... It could use most of the planes we get now, so it wouldn't have to be much more than autumn map and maybe 4 more planes. Bf-110 and 109 E-7/B for Germans and maybe I-16 and Mig-3 for Russians. After that Kursk or Kuban.

 

But after that, I think it would be high time to go to sunny Tunisia, Sicily and Italy...

[JG27_Chivas]

If my memory serves correctly,  I believe the developer has been rumored to stay on the Eastern Front for atleast one more addon and eventually map other major theaters of the war for the life of the series if sales warrant.

[Tr.Gr.186_Schutze]

Well one more snow covered campaign and the game would take dive. Eastern Campaign sure but no snow. Meditterean campaign was never done before and would be very interesting to play. The few three months after release will be critical. How many people are enjoying game and how many will stay to play single map just for support. If in that period no plans will be announced how the game will develop further well.. At any case i have backup plan in il-2 1946 which is being modded and developed by dedicated community.

Edited January 20, 2014 by Rastignac

[andyw248]

Whether the map labels the town I'm flying over as Moscow, Stalingrad, Leningrad or Berlin makes little difference to me. [...] As such, I actually prefer maps that are only roughly similar to the real world area they try to represent. It's a lot quicker to make a semi historical map than to try to recreate each individual building and street.

 

[...] would be completely fine with making a summer version of a current map (literally just retexture it) [...]

 

It's the opposite for me. I like the maps in the game relate to the real world maps (to a reasonable degree) so that I can identify rivers, landmarks, and imagine how things looked like in '42/'43. Good scenery adds immersion.

 

The summer/fall version would also have to add good boundaries between rivers and riverbanks etc. I don't think it would be just a retexturing effort.

[72sq_Savinio]

Could be very interesting another Eastern front like Midway?   

[TheBlackPenguin]

I'll just be happy to see it expand and improve, similar, but perhaps even greater than what we've seen with ROF.

[VBF-12_Stick-95]

If all goes well and BOS is popular and maps of other areas in Russia come out, I hope 777 doesn't make the mistake they did in ROF and charge for the map.  And yes, I do consider that one issue a mistake.  In MP most of the time the Channel Map came up in the rotation it would empty the servers, at least in the US evening time zones, as not as many owned it.  There are certain things that are worth throwing in to keep the community in sync.  Charge more for other items to offset it if necessary.  Fingers crossed.

[Jason_Williams]

We've already stated that we will be releasing expansions that are a "new theatre" which will include both maps and planes. And we have stated many times that the business model will be different than ROF's. Nothing we have done is a mistake in regards to what we have sold because it brought in the necessary revenue and continues to do so. The channel map cost us a lot of money to develop and we had to recoup the cost to stay in business. We'll try something different with the new company and new product.

 

Jason

[Reflected]

That's great Jason, thanks for sharing. I must have missed these news. I hope it's gonna work out!

[Fifi]

+1! Thanks for the reminder Jason. I've missed that as well...good news indeed!

Edited January 22, 2014 by Fifi

[bivalov]

I was thinking yesterday: imagine that by the summer of 2014 BoS is released as a great game, all the bugs ironed out, everything working properly, etc...

 

it's what i thinking during last month too...

 

The battle of Stalingrad is not a very long period,

 

What about BoS? 30-40 missions in a 109 over the snowy ruins of the city and that's it?

BOS it's summer'42 - winter'43, in fact if i'm not mistaken, not small period with many hard various actions...

 

plus, besides fact that we waiting only winter period, in game no lot of planes for correct planeset during BOS and almost BOS - we need yak-7b with PA, yak-7b with PF and high gargrot, several series of yak-1 including yak-1b and yak-1 s96, several series of lagg-3 including with PA and correct lagg s34, il-2 one-seater with shvaks, il-2 one-seater with am-38f, il-2 two-seater with am-38/am-38f (about some ils i not absolutely sure), la-5 of late series, la-5f type 37, looks like i-153, i-16 of several types including early types/uti-4, su-2, a-20, p-40, hurricane, several types of u-2 etc what i forgot...

 

no emils, 123s, 129s, macci/iar, 110s, 88s, 126s, 156s, 189s, 200s, 52s etc what i forgot...

 

ie even before release LOT of WORK and missed planes, sometimes, absolutely needful... just dont forget about...

 

many of these planes needful for many next battles too...

 

I'm hoping that it will be extended to a more "general" Eastern front game, for example the battle of Kursk as a sequel. That way you could really enjoy a long career, and it would offer versatility too.

il-2 BOS is absolutely not il-2 FB, and looks like not will be FB in near future, here really lot lot lot of work with another level of detalisation... well, you know...

 

but, we really can think about some near future...

 

for example, here i tried to imagine approximate development of series, mainly based on info about types of planes during some battles, but this is early example, and just example, of course...

 

well, we have choice and timeline like - summer BOS'42 > battle of velikye luki'42-43 (almost similar planeset, map is WIP by 3d-party) > battles on north of russia'4X-4X (many LL types and different soviet/german planes of many periods) > battle of kuban'43 (similar planeset in some sence, plus many A-5s, 39s, spit-5) > mediterranean theatre'42-43 > summer-autumn'43 ie kursk etc > ... (baltic area it's exellent choice, but size of map and work fears, with summer BOS'42 very possibile something like charkov'42 etc)...

 

or something like this, if immediately not do famous labels like "battle of kursk", although, after summer'42 really could be BOKursk as starting point for next development...

 

about needful planes - if we have f-4 > easy get f-1/2 and subtypes of f-2/4, g-2 > g-1, g-2 late and g-4, a-3 > a-2, a-4, a-5 and F/G etc... ie we have almost ALL needful german fighters/jabo during most popular early'42-late'43, besides emils and g-6...

 

if we have yak-1 s69 > easy get similar series for all 1942 with PA/PF, lagg-3 s29 > apparently easy, s34, s35 and some early series with m-105pa, la-5 type 37 with m-82a of 8 series > series between 1-8, and 8-XX including la-5f type 37, il-2 one-seater with am-38 > il-2 one-seater with shvak, il-2 one-seater with am-38f etc... yak-1b, la-5f type 39, il-2 two-seater with 38/38f very possible too, in this case we have many needful types 42'43...

 

if we get p-40e in near future > several similar 40s, if i not mistaken, hurri > almost all mark 2s, IAR > almost all series, macci > something like above, apparently, etc etc etc with another planes, new or not really new...

 

ie p-400 for east front in middle'42 > any other p-39s, spit-5 > any other 5s and 9 in future (for africa and east front'44 with 9 LF/merlin 66), a-20 > any other 20s etc...

 

yak-7b with PA/PF > yak-7b PF with low gargrot and early series of yak-9, just any yaks-9 with PF, i-16 type 5/10 for BOS > any early types plus uti-4 (+ ki-27 = almost khalkhin-gol/nomongan), apparently, late types too etc...

 

emil > any Es etc...

 

hope you enjoy and will understand my simple calculations... good additions are welcome too...

[Original_Uwe]

Wake me up when the series gets to Africa

[III/JG53Frankyboy]

actually, in old IL2 the Stalingrad map, espacially the winter one, was one of my "hate it" maps.......when building missions on it for the VOW i always had to force myself to do it :D

anyway, it is like it is - the comming map is a Stalingrad winter map. Most important for me is that with its release the game does not focus on fighters only. There will be flyable bomber/attackers too - compare that to IL2 ( exception the IL 2 : D ) and RoF release versions!

 

My favorite as next adon would be the Kuban1943:

i always liked the map in IL 2 with its coastline, hills and valleys

it has water, si 777 can use its RoF channelmap experience

Shipattack and torpedoes ..... interesting possibilities for missiondesigner

A lot of western planes via L&L could be brought in the game, even Spitfire :D

As the german singleseater force would be almost the same as in BoS, the developers could here more concentrate on bombers/attackers ( Bf110, Ju88, Hs129 )

 

BUT, as already said, first BoS has to be a financial succsess.

I can remember a lot of such topics about future scenarios in CloD related forums, and we all know what happened with all these "dreams" .......

Edited January 23, 2014 by III/JG53Frankyboy