Controls Responses

[JG1_Vonrd]

Will there be the ability to adjust the "Responses" curves for each individual plane as in ROF?

Gawd, I SURE hope so!

This IMO is essential to these crates.

[Legioneod]

1 hour ago, II./JG1_Vonrd said:

Will there be the ability to adjust the "Responses" curves for each individual plane as in ROF?

Gawd, I SURE hope so!

This IMO is essential to these crates.

I doubt it but maybe. We can't do it in the current BoX so I'm not so sure they are going to add it. Personally I stopped flying with curves in RoF, it dampens some controls and really limits some of the aircrafts capabilities. It gets tiring after a while but in a fight it helps not to have any curves set.

[US103_Baer]

Good question.

I can't imagine trying to fly them with the same curve. 

Half the planes need tons of down trim to be remotely sensible, but the other half are fine with almost none.  

Nearly all have no trim wheel and out of the box, they're all over the place.

Edited July 7, 2018 by PaulLMF

[Cynic_Al]

21 hours ago, II./JG1_Vonrd said:

Will there be the ability to adjust the "Responses" curves for each individual plane as in ROF?

 

 

If there is not, at the very least an elevator trim will have to be provided, otherwise I suspect there'll be trouble for everyone.

[US103_Baer]

Just a thought for an easy-to-implement elevator trim.

If the existing BoX 'Pitch Trim' control (RCtrl+Up/Down cursor) was applied to the whole elevator for aircraft without elevator trim tabs ( ie all FC types) wouldn't that provide some sort of replacement solution for what we do in pitch curves now?

 

It would mean manually adjusting it in cockpit each time you fly but that isn't too big a deal.

IRL tailplane incidence was adjusted with shims and probably customized by senior pilots, so a form of that would ideal. But understand that's unlikely in game at this point.

RoF works brilliantly, but curve control is a part of that.

 

Edited July 8, 2018 by PaulLMF

[HagarTheHorrible]

It amuses me no end that the developers go to a lot of trouble to fine tune FM's only for players to try and then do their best to mitigate against any unwanted quirks or behavior in individual aircraft.  I admit that much of it is to smooth out pitch and roll sensitivity between controllers, but not all.

[unreasonable]

4 hours ago, Plank said:

 

 

 

By pulling the zero point of your Y axis down to enable level flight with hands off stick

you are creating this detente which you can flee to if you think your nose is waaaaaay too up.

....

If we are locked into stock linear pitch response then I will physically adjust my stick with some kind of actual trim.

....

 

Bottom line I guess is that stick forward all the time is quite tiring and makes it harder to fly planes like the Camel where a nose up stall at low altitude is quite bad news.

....

 

 

The trick if you think you are in danger of stalling is to push the stick well forwards - always works, no fiddling with curves required.

 

I do not think we will be locked into stock response: much more likely that we will get the current BoS treatment, ie one set of curves to rule them all and in the settings bind them. Mind you, if the devs were to get round to introducing a settings page per plane type now would be the time to do it for FC when there are only two planes.  TBH I use the same slightly adjusted rudder curves and stock elevator curves for everything : it is the ability to reverse the throttle control axis that I want, since the froggies insist on doing it back to front. 

 

Stick forwards is tiring - it was for the RL pilots too, but this is how most of the scouts were rigged - (as were Spitfires) - but it only matters if you have FFB or a very strong spring. I hope the default position reflects this - (it does not in BoX Spitfires) but I am sure you will be able to rig it out if you want: but this will effect how quickly you can enter a turn.  

 

 

[US103_Baer]

Worth bearing in mind the actual pilots didn't have to use spring centred joysticks. 

[unreasonable]

6 minutes ago, PaulLMF said:

Worth bearing in mind the actual pilots didn't have to use spring centred joysticks. 

 

No they did not, but if the design and trim was such that flying level required constant down elevator - as you see in many WW1 planes and Spitfires, then the feeling while flying level would be similar.  Release forwards pressure from the stick and you get an immediate and sharp nose up pitch.

[kramer]

On 7/7/2018 at 6:36 AM, Legioneod said:

I doubt it but maybe. We can't do it in the current BoX so I'm not so sure they are going to add it. Personally I stopped flying with curves in RoF, it dampens some controls and really limits some of the aircrafts capabilities. It gets tiring after a while but in a fight it helps not to have any curves set.

 

I was flying without any curves also. And i was really happy with amount of control and precision i have in linear axis in RoF.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

Best Camel jokeys that I know  use linear curves, but for starters it might help to stay alive  bit longer I use individual curves  for some planes like S16 because my hand just get tired from constant forward pressure.

[Legioneod]

2 hours ago, kramer said:

 

I was flying without any curves also. And i was really happy with amount of control and precision i have in linear axis in RoF.

Yep, it's the way the aircraft is meant to be flown, without curves you get full control. If you use curves you restrict the responsiveness of the aircraft and it becomes more sluggish and slower to react in some cases.

[unreasonable]

I have generally only used rudder curves: I find without them fine control is impossible, and if you want to put on lots of rudder the slightly reduced precision at high deflection is not important since you are usually dabbing the rudder for a moment.  With better quality rudder pedals I might not even need them.  For pitch I have never seen the need. 

[J2_Trupobaw]

I have tried using S-Curves for rudder, but high precision around the center wasn't worth the slide when I kicked the pedal furhter. I've used it for few months when I've been learning the pedals, never needed them again. (On CH pedals).

[US103_Baer]

Guys, curves or no curves isn't really the original question. 

BoX HAS  a response curve IF you wish to use it, so that isnt even up for debate.

 

What was asked is if there would be curves PER plane as in RoF. There are 2 parts to this. 

1. Response curves 

2. Axis Offsets

In RoF they are both part of the response curve setup - per plane.

 

Some people have created very detailed response curves for their favourite planes. Which can help.

 

But I suspect nearly everyone in RoF adjusts the pitch offset per plane, because out of the box the planes all exhibit radically different pitch tendencies.

The Dr1 and Spad are prime examples of this variation.

[Cynic_Al]

On 7/8/2018 at 4:46 PM, PaulLMF said:

Worth bearing in mind the actual pilots didn't have to use spring centred joysticks. 

 

Not sure what point you're making. Their controls were airflow centred, which in flight could require more physical effort.

[DD_APHill]

On 7/7/2018 at 8:57 PM, Cynic_Al said:

 

If there is not, at the very least an elevator trim will have to be provided, otherwise I suspect there'll be trouble for everyone.

I suspect many will opt out of flying the sim altogether.

[Guest deleted@83466]

I don't care as much what they do for Flying Circus alone, but I sure hope they don't ever allow axis offsets like in Rise of Flight, used to provide fake trimming, into the WW2 aircraft.   Personally, I think that if people are flying a World War One aircraft that wants to nose up, and there is no trim to counter it, then they should just have to push the stick forward, even if it makes their hand tired.

Edited July 21, 2018 by SeaSerpent

[Cynic_Al]

1 hour ago, SeaSerpent said:

I don't care as much what they do for Flying Circus alone, but I sure hope they don't ever allow axis offsets like in Rise of Flight, used to provide fake trimming, into the WW2 aircraft.   Personally, I think that if people are flying a World War One aircraft that wants to nose up, and there is no trim to counter it, then they should just have to push the stick forward, even if it makes their hand tired.

 

In practice WW1 planes were trimmed on the ground via various methods, so to provide a trim that is non-adjustable in flight is in no way unrealistic.

 

[Stumble]

2 hours ago, SeaSerpent said:

I don't care as much what they do for Flying Circus alone, but I sure hope they don't ever allow axis offsets like in Rise of Flight, used to provide fake trimming, into the WW2 aircraft.   Personally, I think that if people are flying a World War One aircraft that wants to nose up, and there is no trim to counter it, then they should just have to push the stick forward, even if it makes their hand tired.

 

I'm pretty sure they used to rig their planes on the ground before taking off to account for un wanted nosing up.

 

S!

Edited July 21, 2018 by Stumble

[J2_Trupobaw]

On 7/7/2018 at 6:36 AM, Legioneod said:

I doubt it but maybe. We can't do it in the current BoX so I'm not so sure they are going to add it. Personally I stopped flying with curves in RoF, it dampens some controls and really limits some of the aircrafts capabilities. It gets tiring after a while but in a fight it helps not to have any curves set.

In current BoX we have trims and adjustible stabilisers... and when we don't have them, it's historical disadvantage.

Rather than response curves, I would love the option to do it historical way - rig your plane on the ground. We have trims and 109 style stabilisers now in BoX, an option to adjust their default position from mods menu would archive the same as curves. Of course, rigging the stabiliser would also have its historical disadvantages - the more tail heavy plane is the more manuverable it is, so pilots have to balance comfort and combat responsiveness. 

Edited July 22, 2018 by J2_Trupobaw

[DD_Arthur]

17 minutes ago, J2_Trupobaw said:

Rather than response curves, I would love to option to do it historical way - rig your plane on the ground. We have trims and 109 style stabilisers now in BoX, an option to adjust their default from mods menu would archive the same as curves. Of course, rigging the stabiliser would also have its historical disadvantages - the more tail heavy plane is the more manuverable it is, so pilots have to balance comfort and combat responsiveness. 

 

That is a great idea.

[Guest deleted@83466]

1 hour ago, Stumble said:

 

I'm pretty sure they used to rig their planes on the ground before taking off to account for un wanted nosing up.

 

S!

 

Like I said before, Slick, I don't particularly care what they do with the World War One component of Il-2, but I do not want to see axis offsets introduced into the World War Two planes, where it can be used as faux trim.  I like it just the way it already is.  Got it?

Edited July 21, 2018 by SeaSerpent

[Mitthrawnuruodo]

6 minutes ago, SeaSerpent said:

Like I said before, Slick, I don't particularly care what they do with the World War One component of Il-2, but I do not want to see axis offsets introduced into the World War Two planes, where it can be used as faux trim.  Got it?

 

Players can always implement axis offsets with external software if they want.

[Guest deleted@83466]

Just now, Mitthrawnuruodo said:

 

Players can always implement axis offsets with external software if they want.

 

Then I guess there is no need for the developers to implement it in the game.

[Stumble]

4 hours ago, SeaSerpent said:

 

Like I said before, Slick, I don't particularly care what they do with the World War One component of Il-2, but I do not want to see axis offsets introduced into the World War Two planes, where it can be used as faux trim.  I like it just the way it already is.  Got it?

Ok my apologies.

 

S!

[SeaW0lf]

I use only linear responses for all surfaces but the rudder, since mine has a pot and it is not that precise, and the foot movement from one side to another doesn't have enough amplitude to give it a total smooth operation. I can live with the current curved profile for the rudder, but it is not the ideal and my impression is that whoever has the best rudder pedals will have a clear advantage. I mean, they always do, but with custom curvers you can aleviate the problem of a short pedal working with a pot. I use a more pronounced curve for the pedals in ROF. I might consider building a DIY rudder pedal with a hall sensor, but it might take a while if I ever make one.

 

And I agree that axis offset should not be offered. In fact I love the Dr.1 tendency to nose up (I don't use centering force or spring). The stick is a G940.

 

If they modeled it right, no reason to change it. If they modeled it wrong, we could ask to fix it.

Edited July 22, 2018 by SeaW0lf

[Guest deleted@83466]

Yeah.  It's supposed to be a flight simulator, and if the plane flies a certain way the player shouldn't be able to conveniently override it because they don't like it.  If people want to use external joystick software to game it up and do things like fly straight and level at full throttle with their hands off the stick, I guess nothing can stop them from doing it, but 777 shouldn't spend a dime of money, or a minute of manpower helping them.

[Trooper117]

I never used to change the response curves on any of the RoF planes... never saw the need for it.

I don't see the need for it now with FC either... hey, but what do I know  

 

[RNAS10_Oliver]

never adjusted the curves either, but did make great use from the responses tab, in order to reverse them for some aircraft, something I am missing in GB

[unreasonable]

7 hours ago, SeaSerpent said:

Yeah.  It's supposed to be a flight simulator, and if the plane flies a certain way the player shouldn't be able to conveniently override it because they don't like it.  If people want to use external joystick software to game it up and do things like fly straight and level at full throttle with their hands off the stick, I guess nothing can stop them from doing it, but 777 shouldn't spend a dime of money, or a minute of manpower helping them.

 

You do not have to exert 50lbs of pressure to maintain aileron deflection in a fast roll, like a RL pilot, do you? People are not asking for the plane's response to a particular cockpit stick position to be altered, so they are not asking to over-ride how it flies: just to be able to change the relationship between the cockpit stick and the toy like thing that gives the cockpit stick instructions. HOTAS just happens to be more analogous to a planes joystick than mouse control, but that is about it.  Some of them are going to do that whether you like it or not (you obviously do not!) 

 

The game simulates the physiology of the pilot by slowing down roll response, providing black out etc, only where these are important and easy to model. It does not and cannot make the physical and mental experience of the player replicate that of a real pilot. Trying to make everyone play the same way that you do is entirely counter-productive and rather mean spirited.  

 

If Jason decides that he cannot afford the programming time to add plane specific controls I will be disappointed: not because of the offset curves which I do not use, but because the French aircraft have full throttle at the rear position not the front, and I do not want to have to go to settings and reverse my throttle axis every time I switch to a French plane. In other words, sometimes plane specific controls are needed to make your HOTAS more accurately mimic the cockpit controls, not to over-ride things one does not like.

[dburne]

I sure hope at some point they can see the way clear to add plane specific controller configurations.

As this great sim continues to grow, and now with WWI planes and more tanks, it would be of great benefit for the end user for sure.

[Guest deleted@83466]

7 hours ago, unreasonable said:

 

You do not have to exert 50lbs of pressure to maintain aileron deflection in a fast roll, like a RL pilot, do you? People are not asking for the plane's response to a particular cockpit stick position to be altered, so they are not asking to over-ride how it flies: just to be able to change the relationship between the cockpit stick and the toy like thing that gives the cockpit stick instructions. HOTAS just happens to be more analogous to a planes joystick than mouse control, but that is about it.  Some of them are going to do that whether you like it or not (you obviously do not!) 

 

The game simulates the physiology of the pilot by slowing down roll response, providing black out etc, only where these are important and easy to model. It does not and cannot make the physical and mental experience of the player replicate that of a real pilot. Trying to make everyone play the same way that you do is entirely counter-productive and rather mean spirited.  

 

If Jason decides that he cannot afford the programming time to add plane specific controls I will be disappointed: not because of the offset curves which I do not use, but because the French aircraft have full throttle at the rear position not the front, and I do not want to have to go to settings and reverse my throttle axis every time I switch to a French plane. In other words, sometimes plane specific controls are needed to make your HOTAS more accurately mimic the cockpit controls, not to over-ride things one does not like.

 

You need to learn how to follow a discussion, and read exactly what is being said.

 

I have no problem with airplane specific controls, that, as you point out, would allow you to do things like reverse a throttle axis on a French plane.  That's fine. I don't have a problem with people being able to put in an S curve, as they can now, because I'm well aware of the different sensitivities that come from a short desktop joystick compared to a real control stick. (I have a stick extension, otherwise I would probably put a slight curve in there).  I just don't want to see axis offsets, and I would be dissapointed if the developers implemented such a capability.   I certainly don't want to see something like this in the World War 2 planes, which have trim.

 

" Trying to make everyone play the same way that you do is entirely counter-productive and rather mean spirited." ----Apparently you are the one who wants changes to the current system that has been used in IL-2 for several years.  Unless people are biasing their controls downward in their joystick driver,  the people playing IL-2 are playing the way I do:  No offsets.  Unlike you, I almost exclusively play in muliplayer, and I have no desire to see the developers create the ability to allow users who are flying against each other to have magic control inputs to make their airplanes appear to behave in a way that they don't actually behave.

 

Edited July 23, 2018 by SeaSerpent

[HiIIBiIIy]

45 minutes ago, SeaSerpent said:

Unlike you, I almost exclusively play in muliplayer, and I have no desire to see the developers create the ability to allow users who are flying against each other to have magic control inputs to make their airplanes appear to behave in a way that they don't actually behave.

Control off-sets do not change the way a plane behaves. It give some relief of the control input device.  

[Guest deleted@83466]

4 minutes ago, HiIIBiIIy said:

Control off-sets do not change the way a plane behaves. It give some relief of the control input device.  

 

I specifically said, and I quote, "...magic control inputs to make their airplanes appear to behave in a way that they don't actually behave."  The control offsets are essentially providing automatic input to the axis so that the user doesn't have to trouble themselves.  Plain and simply put, it's a method to make things easier:   Psuedo Trim.

[HiIIBiIIy]

1 minute ago, SeaSerpent said:

 

I specifically said, and I quote, "...magic control inputs to make their airplanes appear to behave in a way that they don't actually behave."  The control offsets are essentially providing automatic input to the axis so that the user doesn't have to trouble themselves.  Plain and simply put, it's a method to make things easier:   Psuedo Trim.

Do you have FC or ROF?

[Guest deleted@83466]

Not Flying Circus, but RoF.  I used Control Offsets on every plane in Rise of Flight.  In retrospect, I think the ability to do so should not have been there, and now that it isn't there in IL-2, I think that's a good thing.

[unreasonable]

51 minutes ago, SeaSerpent said:

 

You need to learn how to follow a discussion, and read exactly what is being said.

 

I have no problem with airplane specific controls, that, as you point out, would allow you to do things like reverse a throttle axis on a French plane.  That's fine. I don't have a problem with people being able to put in an S curve, as they can now, because I'm well aware of the different sensitivities that come from a short desktop joystick compared to a real control stick. (I have a stick extension, otherwise I would probably put a slight curve in there).  I just don't want to see axis offsets, and I would be dissapointed if the developers implemented such a capability.   I certainly don't want to see something like this in the World War 2 planes, which have trim.

 

" Trying to make everyone play the same way that you do is entirely counter-productive and rather mean spirited." ----Apparently you are the one who wants changes to the current system that has been used in IL-2 for several years.  Unless people are biasing their controls downward in their joystick driver,  the people playing IL-2 are playing the way I do:  No offsets.  Unlike you, I almost exclusively play in muliplayer, and I have no desire to see the developers create the ability to allow users who are flying against each other to have magic control inputs to make their airplanes appear to behave in a way that they don't actually behave.

 

 

You need to learn how to follow a discussion, and read exactly what is being said.

 

Yes it is pseudo trim, the issue is what it makes "easier". If it is flying straight and level, who cares when you can use "auto-level" in BoX?  Why should you care how other people fly straight and level?  No-one has AFAIK lobbied for offsets in WW2 planes, this is simply a suggested option for those who cannot easily take advantage of the various other methods to achieve pseudo-trim.

 

I did not use offsets in RoF - experimented and found that reducing my spring strength was more satisfactory, gives better feedback and has none of the detrimental consequences. I personally am not affected whether there is a RoF style offset available or not: and neither are you.   If Jason thinks it is not worth the programming effort, fine, but the argument that you are disadvantaged in some way by a program option that is available to all is simply ludicrous. 

 

 

[HiIIBiIIy]

May I suggest you read this, then tell us control off-sets is a evil thing.

 

[Guest deleted@83466]

Chill specifically said that he needs to provide downward pressure on the stick.  He takes issue with the amount of downward pressure, and suggests that future changes could be made to the angle of incidence of the horizontal stabilizer in the FC aircraft.  No inconsistency here.  So apparently, as it is now, you need to hold the stick a little more forward than he thinks should be necessary, but you still need to hold it there.  As we talked about earlier (and moderator saw the word "Flight Model" and freaked out?), those are FM considerations.

 

@unreasonable.  You are no doubt familiar with the I-16.  This has no trim.  So you need to constantly apply stick pressure.  It's part of the workload of the aircraft.  It's part of the very character of the aircraft!  It isn't a big deal, but it definitely is a factor in flying and fighting in the thing, and I don't think that some guy ought to be able to calibrate that away, especially in a competitive multiplayer environment.  Guys like you want to provide a gamey workaround so that the plane will fly level and true, without the need to attend to anything like that?  Or maybe, to further demonstrate the effect on planes even if they do have some measure of trim, maybe you don't like having to park your foot on the rudder when doing a high speed getaway in the 109?  Novice pilots frequently forget to center the ball, and die as a result, but viola, thanks to magic offsets, one need not bother! This is a flight simulation, and while certain concessions can be made to playability,  I think that automatic flight control inputs go a step too far, and that's exactly what control offsets are.

Edited July 23, 2018 by SeaSerpent