Have some mercy on the newbie please

[MADOV_server]

Hello

 

Starting with the ME after being with this sim since its early access. Working on a simple map where I have a flight training airfield. The scenario I have in vision goes  like this :

 

Aircraft spawn, start up and taxi to the flagpole at the start of runway. A Check Zone object linked to the pole activates a delay timer to give me time to get into position behind the lead aircraft already there with engine running and NoTaxi Takeoff set. After 90 secs a flare is fired and 10 secs later the lead takes off with me in perfect formation thinking how clever I am. Alas!

 

I have tried so many combinations of things and only one worked but that was with a direct and delayed link between Mission Begin MCU  to Command Take Off. Meant I was on the clock to get into position and is not as ideal as using a Check Zone. The Mission is Multiplayer Dogfight so I use my DServer as I have a Check Zone.

 

If any of the ME Gurus out there, you know who you are, would like  to assist in any way I would be most grateful. Just a list of the 'obvious' links would be fine if I have missed them. Most of my Triggers have Activate Triggers associated with them. I have a Mission Begin MCU linked to the Check Zone with a delay trigger before the Activate linked to the Command Take Off. Also I haven't set a frontline as it's a non-combat map but the Check Zone has True set for both sides and neutral so every aircraft should set  it off.

 

I understand from what I read here that once once can get one's head  around the 'logic' then it is fairly intuitive but I feel that I am not there yet.

[Leon_Portier]

@MADOV_server Can you link the mission file or screenshots? In your description in the second paragraph you mentioned you linked a check zone to a flag pole, if you object link something to any check zone it will only detect the linked object

Edited June 22, 2018 by Leon_Portier

[Madov]

Hello Leon

 

Don't seem able to link the mission file so I have a screenshot, I am sure you will find it a bit of a mess and a spider's web. I had linked to the pole and linked to triggers to activate consequences of any aircraft entering the zone. Any help would be appreciated. Thank you. I have removed the pole object link and will  test again.

 

The screenshot is not really very clear either but you may be able  to see the type of MCUs I used.

 

 

[Leon_Portier]

@SCG_MADOV I did reproduce the mission based on your description, https://www.dropbox.com/s/f8rsnhk98but107/Gofast.zip?dl=0

Am I close enough? Also I remember the checkzone not working on Deathmatch mode.

[Madov]

From my understanding the Check Zone does not work on the in-game server but it does work on DServer hosted missions. Can you shed further light?

 

Thank you for your efforts,  I will look at this mission tonight.

[Leon_Portier]

No problem! I dont know much about DServer though, so somebody else has the light.

[JimTM]

2 hours ago, SCG_MADOV said:

From my understanding the Check Zone does not work on the in-game server but it does work on DServer hosted missions. Can you shed further light?

 

Thank you for your efforts,  I will look at this mission tonight.

 

Sorry, no time to help test right now. However, you are correct about check zone with in-game server vs. DServer. Coconut logged a bug for that issue.

[Madov]

Seems my breakthrough has finally arrived - using the Complex Trigger was the key and now just finding the correct combination of triggers in order to have a flare go off 10 secs before the lead takes off. Don't need to use DServer either.

[Madov]

Thank you for your helpings. The mission is more or less now as I would have it except one thing - my aircraft after having taken off and done a couple of circuits of the airfield is given the Command Land instruction but refuses to touch down. I have the icon in the direction of active runway and the approach is at an appropriate altitude and speed. The aircraft makes a base leg with nav lights on and gear down and dips his wing as if he was about to turn onto final approach. He then picks up the wing and starts to wind in his gear to go around again. The AI then continues like this ad-nauseum.

Has anyone had a similar experience and if so, how did you force the landing?

 

Thanks for your assistance.

[JimTM]

Can you post your mission please. Place all the mission-related files in a zip file and attach it to your post.

[Madov]

Hello Jim, here is the .Mission file. Thanks for your consideration.

SCG's F.A.R.T. Training.zip

Edited June 25, 2018 by SCG_MADOV

[JimTM]

Hi MADOV,

 

Waypoint id 150 (just before landing) is at 50m, which is below the ground level of about 63m. You may need to move the waypoint further away from the land command, such as the distance of waypoint id 144.

 

You have waypoint id 151 target linked to the land command. Instead, try creating an OnPlaneLanded event message from the plane to waypoint id 151. Note that when AI planes get a land command, they fly one more circuit of the field (independent of the route defined by your waypoints) before landing.

 

Why do you have the takeoff command triggered by a player spawning and by a timer linked to the entry of the player into complex trigger id 147? Would the mission work without the player spawn trigger?

 

Hope that helps.

 

Jim

 

Edited June 25, 2018 by JimTM

[Madov]

Jim, thank you so much for the help here. I love your attention to detail. I imagine that once one gets used to this stuff it becomes easier to spot one's own mistakes.

Reference your last observation - a temporary measure to allow me to run the mission on a test bed, I just spawn in and then watch the flight lead and what he does on external view. Saves me having to taxi over to the active. Once I have the AI logic down then I can delete that step out and revert to the Complex Trigger assembly which was the original method of getting him going.

 

I will make the amendments you suggest reference height, which I should have spotted myself, and the OnPlaneLanded event which I hadn't thought of.

 

Thanks for your valuable assistance. I will report back on the outcome.

 

 

 

Post Test Flight EDIT : Behaviour of AI is the same. Performs the close in circuit as before and then flies in low over the Command Land, reacts to it and starts its final circuit lowering gear and flaps. However, as before, the AI gets confused and doesn't perform a complete circuit but cuts the downwind leg short, turns on base leg and approaches the airfield perpendicular to the active. AI then gets confused as to how to proceed, raises gear and flaps and goes round again. AI seems not to understand the size of the landing field.

Edited June 26, 2018 by SCG_MADOV

[JimTM]

FYI, after you get your current mission working, you may be able to eliminate your taxi waypoints by editing the post-landing part of the taxi chart defined in the airfield object. For details, see "Make a Plane Taxi To and From a Runway" in the mission editor manual. It's up to you though as to which taxi method you want to use.

Edited June 26, 2018 by JimTM

[Madov]

Yes, that step is on my to-do list once I get the AI behaving as I want. I had seen the taxi chart and will look into it, looks like a neat and quick way to get the taxi phase done properly.

[JimTM]

On 6/26/2018 at 8:31 AM, SCG_MADOV said:

...

Post Test Flight EDIT : Behaviour of AI is the same. Performs the close in circuit as before and then flies in low over the Command Land, reacts to it and starts its final circuit lowering gear and flaps. However, as before, the AI gets confused and doesn't perform a complete circuit but cuts the downwind leg short, turns on base leg and approaches the airfield perpendicular to the active. AI then gets confused as to how to proceed, raises gear and flaps and goes round again. AI seems not to understand the size of the landing field.

 

Try the attached simplified version of your mission, which works. The AI plane turns left when it receives the land command and comes back around with nav lights on for landing. I set up the taxi path in the airfield object so that the AI plane taxis in from the runway.

JimTMTestSimplifiedMADOVMission.zip

 

I noticed that you have some enemy objects at the base in your mission. I wonder if that is why the AI plane is aborting the landing?

 

Good luck!

 

Jim

Edited June 27, 2018 by JimTM

[Madov]

Thanks for the simple circuit mission Jim. For the landing I have done the same thing so the problem lies elsewhere. There are Ju52s on the airfield, these in fact belong to Russia and have neutral skins so the AI shouldn't see them as enemy objects. I have cleared the airfield of all objects not on the periphery. Is there anything else that could make the AI refuse to land?

[JimTM]

Aside from the planes, your vehicle and other objects are "Neutral", which is considered enemy by the AI and friendly to the player. If you change those items to Russian, that may solve your problem. For more details, see step 6 in "Populate the View Port with Buildings and Other Objects" on pg. 51 of the editor manual.

 

UPDATE: I tested my simplified mission with a neutral truck, but the AI plane still landed. I'm not sure if it's because the neutral setting is irrelevant to the AI landing or because perhaps the vehicle was not close enough to the runway. Try my suggestion anyway and if it still doesn't work, post your updated mission and I'll have another look.

 

Jim

Edited June 30, 2018 by JimTM

[Madov]

Hello Jim

 

Some good ideas there. So I went through my object tree and there were a few of them designated as 'Neutral'. Everything is now 100% Russian. The Ju52 transport planes are Russian also including all the buildings and blocks. This wasn't enough to entice the AI to land on the field though. I also have played around a little with placement of the Land command and still nothing happens. I just might have to scrap the whole project and start again from scratch, at least I know a lot more about what I should be doing.

You have been a great help to me in this Jim for which I thank you.

 

If you care to have a look at the mission as it lies currently, then I post it here.

 

 

SCG's F.A.R.T. Training.zip

[JimTM]

1 hour ago, SCG_MADOV said:

Hello Jim

 

Some good ideas there. So I went through my object tree and there were a few of them designated as 'Neutral'. Everything is now 100% Russian. The Ju52 transport planes are Russian also including all the buildings and blocks. This wasn't enough to entice the AI to land on the field though. I also have played around a little with placement of the Land command and still nothing happens. I just might have to scrap the whole project and start again from scratch, at least I know a lot more about what I should be doing.

You have been a great help to me in this Jim for which I thank you.

 

If you care to have a look at the mission as it lies currently, then I post it here.

 

 

SCG's F.A.R.T. Training.zip

 

Hi MADOV,

 

I think I'm learning something re. the relation between the land command and airfield objects with or without a taxi path, but I need to do more testing. In the meantime, try setting up the airfield object taxi path onto the runway, that is, set it up as in my simplified mission. 

 

[Madov]

I was surprised to see that there was already a taxi path within the Airfield properties of the mission. I would have thought that it would be more prominent. So I deleted it totally and the AI wouldn't land. I then added a taxi path from the Land command and still no landing. This is such an enigma!

[JimTM]

7 hours ago, SCG_MADOV said:

I was surprised to see that there was already a taxi path within the Airfield properties of the mission. I would have thought that it would be more prominent. So I deleted it totally and the AI wouldn't land. I then added a taxi path from the Land command and still no landing. This is such an enigma!

 

Here's another simplified version of your mission that works. Check out the taxi path in that one. I reduced the airborne waypoints to five and added a subtitle translator to announce the land command. Note that the ground-based taxi waypoint triggers do not work in this case. The plane follows the airfield object post-landing taxi path.

 

JimTMTestSimplifiedMADOVMission3.zip

 

Note that you need the runway-based taxi path. I ran a test where I deleted the taxi path and when the plane got the land command, it flew a left-hand circuit relative to the direction of the airfield object orientation, turned final in the direction of the airfield orientation, and landed in the trees to the East of the airfield object. I need to test that behaviour more as I mentioned before.

 

Edited July 1, 2018 by JimTM

[Madov]

I am going to have to do some in-depth reading of the ME Guides available. At the moment I cannot see the logic that makes AI land properly. I set up a very basic circuit map from scratch like yours and the AI didn't land properly. Then I tried the taxi path in the airfield properties and that didn't improve things. I am obviously missing something crucial, nothing I do to the original mission makes the AI land. Could be that there is a limit to the number of waypoints an AI can respond to  without losing track. It is so frustrating though.

[JimTM]

3 minutes ago, SCG_MADOV said:

I am going to have to do some in-depth reading of the ME Guides available. At the moment I cannot see the logic that makes AI land properly. I set up a very basic circuit map from scratch like yours and the AI didn't land properly. Then I tried the taxi path in the airfield properties and that didn't improve things. I am obviously missing something crucial, nothing I do to the original mission makes the AI land. Could be that there is a limit to the number of waypoints an AI can respond to  without losing track. It is so frustrating though.

 

That's pretty frustrating! If you can post your scratch mission, I'll have a look and see if we can pinpoint the issue. This will likely help improve the manual.

[SCG_Schneemann]

I am anxious to see what you guys come up with. In my dawn mission where the searchlights turn off right at dawn I too have planes come back and land in the trees.

[Thad]

1 hour ago, SCG_MADOV said:

I am going to have to do some in-depth reading of the ME Guides available. At the moment I cannot see the logic that makes AI land properly. I set up a very basic circuit map from scratch like yours and the AI didn't land properly. Then I tried the taxi path in the airfield properties and that didn't improve things. I am obviously missing something crucial, nothing I do to the original mission makes the AI land. Could be that there is a limit to the number of waypoints an AI can respond to  without losing track. It is so frustrating though.

Salutations,

 

For Reference: Attached is a single player Bf109 G2 Section flight mission. The flight taxi and take off from one airfield.... they make a short flight to a neighboring airfield and land. They then will taxi to their new flight line.

109G2_Section Flight.rar

Edited July 1, 2018 by Thad

[Madov]

Thank you very much Gentlemen, I will be investigating over the next couple of days and post my findings. Good to have your support.

[JimTM]

FYI, I did some testing tonight on a very simple mission where the AI plane took off and flew a circuit defined by four waypoints. The last waypoint triggered a land command. I found the following:

 

- Land command only

  The AI flies the circuit and when it gets the land command, it flies the additional canned AI circuit before landing.

 

- Added an airfield object, halfway down the runway and pointed in the same direction as the land command

  The AI flies the circuit and when it gets the land command, it flies some additional canned AI circuit before landing.
  The canned circuit pattern depends on whether there is a taxi path defined.

 

- Turned the airfield object 90 degrees right to the direction of the land command

  The AI flies the circuit and when it gets the land command, it flies a complex additional canned AI circuit,
   ending up on a final approach that is oriented in the direction of the airfield object and landing in that direction.

 

More testing needed. I need to find out how airfield objects in parking spots affect the AI landing behaviour.

Edited July 2, 2018 by JimTM

[Madov]

I have the same experience reference the airfield object orientation. Not only does this dictate how spawning aircraft line up but also how AI are directed to view the landing pattern. This may not be an intended consequence of course.

[Madov]

After some more trial and error I now see where I was going wrong and how to proceed with more success. JimTM put me on the right path of thought and Thad's 109 single mission made me see just how the built in taxi path from the Airfield properties is connected to the AI's understanding of the correct circuit and landing routine.

 

If the AirfieldSpawn object in placed on the runway threshold pointing down the runway then it is a straight  forward job to plot  the waypoints and get the AI to perform the circuit and make a correct approach and land. This is so even if the taxi path is deleted. The AI simply follows the direction set within the AirfieldSpawn object.

When the AirfieldSpawn object is placed differently is where my problems arose. I was spawning in at a blast pen and then I would taxi myself to the threshold where I would meet with the AI flight leader and then take off together. I had the airfield object pointing perpendicular to the line of the runway and that  was always the approach line that the AI would take to make a landing and consequently always mess it up. I had ignored the built in taxi pathway.

So now with this 'eureka' moment, though I wasn't in the bath when it happened, I have success with the following.

 

I spawn in, start  up and taxi to the threshold where  the flight leader is already waiting. My presence is detected and shortly a flare is put up after which we both take off together in perfect formation. After circuits we can land together or I can continue performing solo aerobatics. The AI's flying abilities do not stretch this far so I let him make his solo approach which he does correctly and then taxies round the perimeter track and parks himself in one of the blast pens before switching off.

 

Shortly I will post the complete Mission file for this routine which will form the basis for the SCG Flying School as well as  our Formation Aerobatics Relativework Team - F.A.R.T. based out of Kerch airfield. I still want to develop the behaviour a little with a few more embellishments but thanks to the collaborative approach adopted here and some major help and support offered to me I have managed to get over this learning curve and can see my way to further horizons.

[Thad]

Outstanding and congratulation. 

[Madov]

Hello

 

Thought I would include a little in-cockpit video of a recent sortie of the KRASNAYA TROIKA, or Red Three,  just the two of us on this one. Action is at Kerch airfield, home of the SCG F.A.R.T. and credit for the beautiful and authentic looking skins goes to -IRRE-Trefil. Nice work mon vieux.

 

 

 

 

This is only my first ever video uploaded but I hope to develop this channel with formation and aerobatic flying.

 

Also here is the .Mission  file for anyone who is interested -

 

Euan

 

SCG's F.A.R.T. with I-16.zip

Edited July 4, 2018 by SCG_MADOV