Photo Recon Lightnings

[Poochnboo]

After taking part in a discussion about the coming PO-2, I got to thinking. There's a forgotten aspect of the war in the air that has never been a part of a combat flight sim. And it's vital to the success of any real life battle.

It's airial reconnaisance. I guess flight sim developers figure no one wants to fly an unarmed airplane. But we have the JU-52. And people seem to be excited about that little Russian biplane. What about the F5, the recon version of the P-38 Lightning?

It wouldn't be difficult to convert the BOS P-38L into and F5....anyway, I wouldn't think so. It might be pretty exciting flying into a combat zone when your mission is to AVOID combat. Use you speed and brains to stay away from German fighters, get your pictures, and rush back to base so they can be developed.

It's an aspect of the air war that I've always been interested in. I have several books on the subject, dealing with the 9th Air Forces 31st Recon Group  and the 8th's 7TH Recon Group. They flew some pretty hairy missions!

I realize you could just use the games's P-38, but it would be so much more immersive to have the correct airplane, and not have the gunsight in front of your face. Would you guys fly such an airplane, or would that just be a waste of time for Jason to even look in to?

Edited June 19, 2018 by Poochnboo

[danielprates]

A while back I too commented on some more mission types and I got in response an official list of planned future mission types, a very thorough one btw, and it included photo recon. A short while later, the new (current) career system came into place and indeed several of those mission types were implemented, including a 'intercept recon plane' type, which I got to fly in career mode. 

 

So my guess is that this may be a thing, and soon too!

 

Recon  IS combat - specially if you get jumped along the way!

Edited June 19, 2018 by danielprates

[RedKestrel]

7 minutes ago, Poochnboo said:

After taking part in a discussion about the coming PO-2, I got to thinking. There's a forgotten aspect of the war in the air that has never been a part of a combat flight sim. And it's vital to the success of any real life battle.

It's airial reconnaisance. I guess flight sim developers figure no one wants to fly an unarmed airplane. But we have the JU-52. And people seem to be excited about that little Russian biplane. What about the F5, the recon version of the P-38 Lightning?

It wouldn't be difficult to convert the BOS P-38L into and F5....anyway, I wouldn't think so. It might be pretty exciting flying into a combat zone when your mission is to AVOID combat. Use you speed and brains to stay away from German fighters, get your pictures, and rush back to base so they can be developed.

It's an aspect of the air war that I've always been interested in. I have several books on the subject, dealing with the 9th Air Forces 31st Recon Group  and the 8th's 7TH Recon Group. They flew some pretty hairy missions!

I realize you could just use the games's P-38, but it would be so much more immersive to have the correct airplane, and not have the gunsight in front of your face. Would you guys fly such an airplane, or would that just be a waste of time for Jason to even look in to?

I'd fly recon sorties in a career, even in just a regular aircraft, though a recon mod would be nice (if doable). It would be fun. It would test your navigation skills and give a little variety to the missions.

The question is...how do you evaluate success? Simply reaching a pre-destined point for recon seems too simple. It would be nice to actually have the player take a photo, and the success/failure of the mission is based on whether they took the photo of the right location. That, however, seems like it would be a total nightmare to program.
 

[69th_chuter]

And, if you wanted guns you could use the DGP-1 gun pods (two .50s per pod w/170 rds. ea.) which were actually trialed by the 7th Photo, 8th AF but rejected because of their drag and 450 lbs weight ... each.  They weren't super accurate either.  lol

[Mesha44]

Programming the take a photo might be hard but it could be reduced to flying through a series of small well defined waypoints that cover the objective of the mission.

[RedKestrel]

4 minutes ago, Mesha44 said:

Programming the take a photo might be hard but it could be reduced to flying through a series of small well defined waypoints that cover the objective of the mission.

Or having a patrol area, finding the 'target' within the area and loitering for a certain amount of time perhaps? That way you have to actually put eyes on target.

I admit I really like the idea of recon missions even without a dedicated type, I really want to see it in careers now.

[Poochnboo]

5 minutes ago, Mesha44 said:

Programming the take a photo might be hard

Yeah, that's the only sticky part of the idea. You'd want to snap your pictures and then have to check them when you got back to see if they came out, or if you got enough of the assigned area covered. If not....you've gotta go back!

Maybe it could be tied in to the screenshot button. 

[Legioneod]

3 minutes ago, RedKestrel said:

Or having a patrol area, finding the 'target' within the area and loitering for a certain amount of time perhaps? That way you have to actually put eyes on target.

I admit I really like the idea of recon missions even without a dedicated type, I really want to see it in careers now.

Pretty much how they did it in Rise of flight if I remember correctly. You'd fly to the designated point and patrol over the recon target for a while. I also recall they had actual cameras in RoF and as you flew over the target area you could take pictures to complete the objective and then return to base.

Edited June 19, 2018 by Legioneod

[Juri_JS]

The last patch added a subfolder called "airrecontargetslist". It contains a swf file which will probably be used in the future for some kind of recon mechanism.

[Poochnboo]

2 minutes ago, Legioneod said:

in RoF and as you flew over the target area you could take pictures to complete the objective and then return to base.

I don't remember that. But, if ROF had it, then Jason wouldn't have any trouble implementing it, here. Boy, it really sounds doable and I think could be a hell of a lot of fun.

[Legioneod]

Just now, Poochnboo said:

I don't remember that. But, if ROF had it, then Jason wouldn't have any trouble implementing it, here. Boy, it really sounds doable and I think could be a hell of a lot of fun.

All I really remember is that you could equip an actual camera and take pictures when flying over the objective. I can't remember if it was in career or in multiplayer and I'm not sure if it took the pictures automatically or not but I do remember there being a camera and taking pictures.

[RedKestrel]

3 minutes ago, Juri_JS said:

The last patch added a subfolder called "airrecontargetslist". It contains a swf file which will probably be used in the future for some kind of recon mechanism.

!!!

THE PLOT THICKENS!

[Stryker07]

There are indeed air recon mission the the SP campaign in RoF. Get a lot of those when you fly in an R.E.8 or 1 1/2 Strutter squadron. I still have yet to fly all the aircraft I have in RoF in campaigns. For sure I have flown them in quick missions, but not in career,

[Herne]

I wondered if  2TAF had any recon squadrons. Wiki says 140 RAF squadron was assigned to 2 TAF which flew mosquito's  

 

In the interest of MP balance though, what did the LW use for photo recon ?

[RedKestrel]

7 minutes ago, =FEW=Herne said:

I wondered if  2TAF had any recon squadrons. Wiki says 140 RAF squadron was assigned to 2 TAF which flew mosquito's  

 

In the interest of MP balance though, what did the LW use for photo recon ?

I think Ju-88s or Ju-188s? Not sure there were many of them around by 44-45 though.

RCAF army cooperation squadrons used Allison-engine mustangs early and mid-war, maybe into 44 or 45.

[Poochnboo]

29 minutes ago, =FEW=Herne said:

I wondered if  2TAF had any recon squadrons. Wiki says 140 RAF squadron was assigned to 2 TAF which flew mosquito's  

 

In the interest of MP balance though, what did the LW use for photo recon ?

I know there was a recon version of the 109F. The BF 109F-4/R3. It had cameras mounted behind the pilot's seat, where the radios usually were. Don't know if they were placed somewhere else, or it went without.

 

 

13 minutes ago, Poochnboo said:

I wondered if  2TAF had any recon squadrons. Wiki says 140 RAF squadron was assigned to 2 TAF which flew mosquito's  

 

In the interest of MP balance though, what did the LW use for photo recon ?

No 84 Group:
35 Reconnaissance Wing
2 Squadron Mustang IA OI
268 Squadron Mustang IA 
4 Squadron Spitfire XI TV
 

34 Reconnaissance Wing:
16 Squadron Spitfire XI
140 Squadron Mosquito IX/XVI
69 Squadron Wellington XIII

Edited June 19, 2018 by Poochnboo

[Godspeed]

Bf-110's did photo recon in every theather would be nice to have such missions in career.

[PatrickAWlson]

The RoF implementation is pretty simple.  You hit the target point and click on an icon.  Picture taken.  On to the next.  You don't actually see what you are photographing and the game does not do a sophisticated analysis of what you took a picture of.  It's just click the icon with a certain number of meters of where you are told to do so.

[Juri_JS]

The system from RoF wouldn't really work for the serial photo aircraft cameras in ww2. The cameras would be activated when approaching the target area and it would automatically take overlapping images. I am not sure how this could be realistically implemented in the game

[falle96]

1 hour ago, Juri_JS said:

The system from RoF wouldn't really work for the serial photo aircraft cameras in ww2. The cameras would be activated when approaching the target area and it would automatically take overlapping images. I am not sure how this could be realistically implemented in the game

I was going to say, I remember RoF having photo recce missions.

 

Adding that functionality would be really nice, but that would have to come with the rest of the update to Career mode that's soon to come.

[Poochnboo]

1 hour ago, FarflungWanderer said:

I was going to say, I remember RoF having photo recce missions.

 

Adding that functionality would be really nice, but that would have to come with the rest of the update to Career mode that's soon to come.

Well, I was really thinking along the lines of adding this feature along with a photo recon f5. So, since we won't be seeing the Lightning this year, (at least, I doubt it) there's plenty of time to implement such an idea. If they were so inclined.

[=27=Davesteu]

Highly interesting part of air war history. Definitely worth being represented in game.

First generation IL-2 had a very crude implementation of it and I always wished for actual pictures. In Silent Hunter (4 at least) one could take a photo looking through the periscope and I always liked that.

 

My idea would be a designated area triggering the camera operational only within so no one just takes pictures of the steppe. While inside this area, the player himself has to activate the camera and keep the aircraft level for a certain time. Within the activation area itself would be a second smaller area, covering the actual point of interest.

In case the pilot returns to base without having taken a single hit into the camera's hitbox, the pictures (condensed number) can be viewed and the mission being fulfilled. It's rated successful in case the aircraft passed the smaller area while the camera's timer was running. In Multiplayer a sign could appear in the pre-flight map visible to everybody on player's team, showing the pictures taken if clicked on.

 

For BoBP Bf 109 G-6/R2&3 or G-8, F-5E, F-6D and Spitfire PR Mk.XI are conceivable.

[Herne]

1 hour ago, =27=Davesteu said:

Highly interesting part of air war history. Definitely worth being represented in game.

First generation IL-2 had a very crude implementation of it and I always wished for actual pictures. In Silent Hunter (4 at least) one could take a photo looking through the periscope and I always liked that.

 

My idea would be a designated area triggering the camera operational only within so no one just takes pictures of the steppe. While inside this area, the player himself has to activate the camera and keep the aircraft level for a certain time. Within the activation area itself would be a second smaller area, covering the actual point of interest.

In case the pilot returns to base without having taken a single hit into the camera's hitbox, the pictures (condensed number) can be viewed and the mission being fulfilled. It's rated successful in case the aircraft passed the smaller area while the camera's timer was running. In Multiplayer a sign could appear in the pre-flight map visible to everybody on player's team, showing the pictures taken if clicked on.

 

For BoBP Bf 109 G-6/R2&3 or G-8, F-5E, F-6D and Spitfire PR Mk.XI are conceivable.

 

In gliding competitions the cameras are sealed and mounted in line with one of your wings. to aim you basically point your wing at the turning point. I think the spitfire recon had a similar set up in that the pilot would basically aim by lining up his left wing with target. 

Those big old engines on the F5 would make taking piccies in this manner a bit difficult. I wonder how they aimed the camera ?

[HBPencil]

I'm a fan of WW2 single seat recon aircraft, skinned plenty of PR.XIs back in the day. And from that I see plenty of potential in BoBP for indulging in the ancient and honorable custom of using hack-skins to fill these niche roles if need be; I suspect the F-5 would be the hardest to pull off but others like the F-6, F-3A (nocturnal recon variant of the A-20), FR.IX, 109 and the 190 would probably be relatively straight forward.
It's been awhile since I last checked but I don't recall seeing recon hack-skins for the Pe-2, Yak and Vb?

[xvii-Dietrich]

Back in the Storm of War (v4) campaign, my squad was a dedicated recon-unit. Target discovery, damage evaluation, status updates. We flew Ju 88 aircraft and used the bombsight to get alignment on the target, so it would be in the frame. All great stuff, and the fact you had to return with your cameras made the mission even more intense as if you didn't land safely, the recce-photos were lost.

 

On 6/19/2018 at 7:17 PM, RedKestrel said:

The question is...how do you evaluate success? Simply reaching a pre-destined point for recon seems too simple. It would be nice to actually have the player take a photo, and the success/failure of the mission is based on whether they took the photo of the right location. That, however, seems like it would be a total nightmare to program.

 

This is a key point.  There are some ways to detect aircraft location ( Ref: https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/36496-recon-mechanisms/ ) but it is far more effective and rewarding if there is a photograph shutter button to press. Then, timing is a factor. There can also be a limited number of frames in the camera too, rather than criss-crossing the map until the fuel runs out.

 

In Storm of War there was a separate mechanism to do it. However, the recon mechanism is actually built in Rise of Flight, on which BoX is supposedly based. The RoF system works really nicely. What is missing in RoF, however, is recognition for taking photographs. In the end, no-one flew recon much because you can get points for flying bombers and fighters and destroying something, but nothing for "just" taking pictures.

 

 

 

 

[Sgt_Joch]

In september 44 , 9th AF had 217 and 2nd TAF 194 recon ACs.  (see p. 596)

 

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/AAF/III/AAF-III-17.html

 

9th AF used many P-51s modified as F-6 recon models:

 

Quote

The major modifications were on fighters, the Ninth's chief weapon. Most important of the changes made immediately after groups began operating from fields in Normandy was the addition of engine filter ducts. The "appalling dust conditions" in France had caused an abnormally high consumption of oil, which in turn had produced an excessive number of engine failures. Directly attributable to changed combat conditions after D-day was the installation on fighters of rocket-firing equipment and "droop snoots," this term meaning the use of a Norden bombsight in the nose of a P-38. Through the use of special radio equipment, lead planes could control the release of bombs by a whole group, and by the end of October 1944 most of the planes in the Ninth's three P-38 groups carried the equipment required for droop-snoot bombing.136 Installation of rocket launchers and electric bomb releases was begun in July, but the work proceeded slowly because of a shortage of kits and parts. Another major modification was the conversion of a large number of P-51's to F-6's for use as photo reconnaissance planes

 

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/AAF/III/AAF-III-16.html#fn137

 

(p.589)

[CountZero]

3 hours ago, xvii-Dietrich said:

Back in the Storm of War (v4) campaign, my squad was a dedicated recon-unit. Target discovery, damage evaluation, status updates. We flew Ju 88 aircraft and used the bombsight to get alignment on the target, so it would be in the frame. All great stuff, and the fact you had to return with your cameras made the mission even more intense as if you didn't land safely, the recce-photos were lost.

 

 

This is a key point.  There are some ways to detect aircraft location ( Ref: https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/36496-recon-mechanisms/ ) but it is far more effective and rewarding if there is a photograph shutter button to press. Then, timing is a factor. There can also be a limited number of frames in the camera too, rather than criss-crossing the map until the fuel runs out.

 

In Storm of War there was a separate mechanism to do it. However, the recon mechanism is actually built in Rise of Flight, on which BoX is supposedly based. The RoF system works really nicely. What is missing in RoF, however, is recognition for taking photographs. In the end, no-one flew recon much because you can get points for flying bombers and fighters and destroying something, but nothing for "just" taking pictures.

 

 

 

 

 

That worked great and recon was so important as you could not detect or even close target by just bombing it and not doing recon of it and confirmed its destroyed, I think they should implement it that way, so then mission maker has options to add recon to finish objectives like we see now on DF servers , insted just destroying all neccesary objects and target is removed from objective like its now. Mission maker could add so recon had to be done over that target.

Also there could be some hidden targets in few locations ( briefing can say something simple like check thouse 3 towns to loacate in wich is the real target ). In thouse cases doing recon after or before would have big impact even on simple fast food servers and show importance of doing recon.

Edited June 21, 2018 by 77.CountZero

[Jade_Monkey]

I have a feeling that the tech behind the bombing aid (the yellow reticle when you fly on normal) could be leveraged to make photo recon. Im sure it can be adapted somehow for this purpose.

[Royal_Flight]

Not a programmer so not sure if this implementation is feasible, but something could be jury-rigged from the bombsight view.

Bombs are set to give points when the hit a target and destroy it. The code for bombs could be rejigged so that the bombsight view becomes a ‘camera shutter’ sight, and pressing the photo button releases an invisible ‘bomb’ object that falls instantly with no gravity or speed effects applied and is assumed to cover everything visible in the sight.

 

So when you press the shutter, the game interprets this as having everything in view receiving a ‘hit’ which is worth points.

To make it more interesting, defer awardng the points until you’re back at a friendly airfield with the engines off to simulate landing to unload photos. 

[Jade_Monkey]

Its even simpler. The camera doesnt need to take into account speed, wind, etc. Just altitude for a straight shot of whats down there. They have the tech to estimate the bombs, so this should be less complex. You can estimate the spot the camera is pointing at, and based on altitude, the area it would capture. Then calculate whether the objective is within the shot.

[Poochnboo]

On 6/22/2018 at 5:42 AM, Royal_Flight said:

So when you press the shutter, the game interprets this as having everything in view receiving a ‘hit’ which is worth points.

To make it more interesting, defer awardng the points until you’re back at a friendly airfield with the engines off to simulate landing to unload photos. 

This sounds like a good way to do this.

[dkoor]

On 6/19/2018 at 6:50 PM, Poochnboo said:

Would you guys fly such an airplane, or would that just be a waste of time for Jason to even look in to?

As a person that very much like the P-38, I even made the skins for it back in a day (1946), as a guy that likes non-combat missions such is transport, recon etc., as a guy that has 0 air to air combat kills in his ongoing JABO career (flew about 20 sorties so far - I don't suck that much I just stick to the mission and avoid enemy planes), as a guy that enjoyed such missions in RoF (DFW and Bristol sorties), heck as a person that uses DSLR here and there... do I really have any other option say yes to such idea?

[Poochnboo]

On 6/21/2018 at 9:14 AM, Sgt_Joch said:

Another major modification was the conversion of a large number of P-51's to F-6's for use as photo reconnaissance planes

Yes, but the difference between the Mustang and Lightning recon models was that the F-6's were armed. They were fully equipped fighters that had cameras mounted in the fuselage, behind the pilot. They could fight, and often did. There were a number of Mustang recon aces during the war. As a matter of fact, Bill Shomo was flying an F6 when he won his Medal of Honer in January of 1945, over the Phillipines. He and his wingman, Paul Lipscomb dived into a formation of no less than 11 Japanese fighters escorting a Betty bomber. Shomo shot down the bomber and SIX of the fighters. Lipscomb got three more.

The thing that makes the F5 a better choice is that it would be a very different mission, with those. You'll want to avoid a fight and use your head to get in and out of the target area. 

Edited June 26, 2018 by Poochnboo

[dkoor]

Another thing that could be of use with Lightning recon is that it really has good climb rate and solid speed at higher altitudes so "escaping" that way should be a valid option versus Fockes... Me-109 is whole another story, only speed will work against it. So anyway if we get that F5 variant it would be nice to see just how much weight is shaved off by deleting all the guns, cannon and ammo... someone may know the numbers but surely those are heavier than only camera. Perhaps further improvements were made to make F5 faster?

 

 

Edited June 26, 2018 by dkoor

[Herne]

Did they solve the problem with the supercharger on the F5 late war ? saw a vid saying it had problems with the supercharger freezing making it common for at least one engine to fail above 15000'

 

time stamped for relevance.
 

 

[=27=Davesteu]

10 hours ago, =FEW=Herne said:

Did they solve the problem with the supercharger on the F5 late war ? saw a vid saying it had problems with the supercharger freezing making it common for at least one engine to fail above 15000'

Probably this might be just another attempted explanation of quite frequent engine failures. It was ultimately traced back to the antiknock properties of RAF avgas.

He specifically refers to the supercharger, which might raise doubt, but there was wild speculation all over the place. Virtually every unit had its own idea what might be the cause.

 

He continues explaining nicely how they took the pics. I honestly think it's not that far off my previously posted idea of how ingame reconnaissance mechanics could be working.

Really a great interview, I enjoyed it, especially the part they show him the footage he never saw before.