Bf 109 K4 information?

[catchthefoxes]

it has to be the airplane I'm most looking forward to but it's still bothering how sims are able to recreate it if there are almost no records on it(not regarding engine performance but regarding how to build the engine), how do they know the cockpit looks the way it did? is there a good enough record on the way to build it ? are there any blueprints on it or how to build the airframe?  is there any footage of it or high-quality/film scanned photographs? why the hell are there no more K4s anymore? were they all destroyed? who destroyed them? Why are there more ME 262s than k4s in real life? is there a perfect book or website that gives perfect information about it? I know there are other planes that have very little information on but the K4 bugs me the most. maybe im thinking to hard into this, maybe the k4 and g 14 or g 10 are the exact same aircraft. so far this is the only site that's "good enough" http://kurfurst.org/Performance_tests/109K_PBLeistungen/Leist_109K_EN.html  and apparently, this guy is building one but i have no idea if he gave up https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6R3Ypwb84VY. sorry if I asked too many questions or if I sound as if I have no idea what I'm talking about, I'm just very curious.

Edited June 5, 2018 by catchthefoxes

[LukeFF]

1 hour ago, catchthefoxes said:

how do they know the cockpit looks the way it did?

 

https://www.deutscheluftwaffe.de/cockpitprofil-messerschmitt-bf-109-k-4

 

1 hour ago, catchthefoxes said:

why the hell are there no more K4s anymore? were they all destroyed? who destroyed them?

 

Umm...the Allies?

 

1 hour ago, catchthefoxes said:

is there any footage of it or high-quality/film scanned photographs?

 

Try Google? You know, you can get your answer really quickly that way.

[catchthefoxes]

2 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

 

https://www.deutscheluftwaffe.de/cockpitprofil-messerschmitt-bf-109-k-4

 

thanks for this, but ive already looked on google couldn find any footage on the k4 and i just thought it was weird that literally 0 k4 are around

[AndyJWest]

It's worth bearing in mind that at the close of WW2, nobody really considered combat aircraft as having any historical significance. Or at least, not enough to bother about preserving minor variations of each type. Almost all were scrapped, or in the case of some naval aircraft, dumped over the side of a carrier. What we have today is mostly down to luck.

[Finkeren]

Also keep in mind, that by the war’s end, there was little reason to take abandoned aircraft as prizes any longer. The Allies knew they wouldn’t be fighting these machines for much longer, so no need to keep them for testing purposes. And there was no point in simply keeping them as trophies either. Earlier in the war, it was fairly rare to capture an operational Bf 109 intact and airworthy and such a prize was highly valued. As the Third Reich was collapsing in late 44/early 45 lots and lots of equipment was abandoned and allowed to fall into Allied hands, but it had almost no value anymore, it was not rare, it served no purpose for testing or propaganda, so why waste time on it, when you had your hands full just keeping your own aircraft running. 

 

Ironically, the more abundant captured equipment becomes, the less the chance that it will be kept and survive in the future. There’s a reason why the only Tiger I tank that is operational today was the very first one that was captured intact by the British.

[Diggun]

1 hour ago, Finkeren said:

Ironically, the more abundant captured equipment becomes, the less the chance that it will be kept and survive in the future. There’s a reason why the only Tiger I tank that is operational today was the very first one that was captured intact by the British.

Speaking as a librarian of history (and philosophy) of science, you hit the goddamn nail on the goddamn head there. 

[RAY-EU]

We could do that ? :

 

 

[Ehret]

5 minutes ago, RAY-EU said:

We could do that ? :

 

With thrust vectoring, maybe, and assuming the G-loads wouldn't black-out you or kill you. You could try to enter a spin and hope to get a snapshot.

Edited June 6, 2018 by Ehret

[D3adCZE]

Technically if he was close enough, you could pull, throttle to 0, kick right rudder, and if you time it right, you might hit the enemy. But afterwards you will fall at least 600 meters before you picked up enough airspeed(in this case you would become nice warm pancake in the forest). 

 

*Off topic warning* When we are talking about Red Tails and it's "historical accuracy" combined with 140% trustworthy physics I find this wunderpony rather amusing:

 

[RAY-EU]

There is a conceptual technical error In these videos when the ME 262 shoot with the 4 of 30 millimeter cannons the P51 D in the cristal the holes of the bullets are less than 7,92 mm like  MG 17 meanwhile  are 30 millimeter MK 108 cannons of compares a 0,7 centimeters holes you see only  in the P51 versus the  3 centimeters like 2 inches  holes of MK 108 cannons ! Should be and impact like you had and  If a bullet of 30 millimeters, 3 centimeters 2 inches touch your body every  bullet means that  could easily make you a hole like your hand so anyone  should be  instantly death , and if are several ones ? , How Like you can see in the en of this video:

 

Edited June 6, 2018 by RAY-EU

[sevenless]

1 hour ago, RAY-EU said:

There is a conceptual technical error In these videos when the ME 262 shoot with the 4 of 30 millimeter cannons the P51 D in the cristal the holes of the bullets are less than 7,92 mm like  MG 17 meanwhile  are 30 millimeter MK 108 cannons of compares a 0,7 centimeters holes you see only  in the P51 versus the  3 centimeters like 2 inches  holes of MK 108 cannons ! Should be and impact like you had and  If a bullet of 30 millimeters, 3 centimeters 2 inches touch your body every  bullet means that  could easily make you a hole like your hand so anyone  should be  instantly death , and if are several ones ? , How Like you can see in the en of this video:

 

 

Ahh Hollywood...Seriously 1 hit by a 30mm shell and nearly the whole Mustang is pulverized.

[catchthefoxes]

i thought the same thing

[Wolf8312]

17 hours ago, AndyJWest said:

It's worth bearing in mind that at the close of WW2, nobody really considered combat aircraft as having any historical significance. Or at least, not enough to bother about preserving minor variations of each type. Almost all were scrapped, or in the case of some naval aircraft, dumped over the side of a carrier. What we have today is mostly down to luck.

 

It's fascinating how short sighted they could have been! Are there not companies out there today that actually just build old fighter planes like 109's and thus preserve them?

17 hours ago, Finkeren said:

Also keep in mind, that by the war’s end, there was little reason to take abandoned aircraft as prizes any longer. The Allies knew they wouldn’t be fighting these machines for much longer, so no need to keep them for testing purposes. And there was no point in simply keeping them as trophies either. Earlier in the war, it was fairly rare to capture an operational Bf 109 intact and airworthy and such a prize was highly valued. As the Third Reich was collapsing in late 44/early 45 lots and lots of equipment was abandoned and allowed to fall into Allied hands, but it had almost no value anymore, it was not rare, it served no purpose for testing or propaganda, so why waste time on it, when you had your hands full just keeping your own aircraft running. 

 

Ironically, the more abundant captured equipment becomes, the less the chance that it will be kept and survive in the future. There’s a reason why the only Tiger I tank that is operational today was the very first one that was captured intact by the British.

 

Yeah as newer models came out it would probably have been no diffrent to what happens with cars today. You dont keep some old banger around when you've got the new delux model, you just sell/scrap the old one and move on.

 

[Sokol1]

3 hours ago, RAY-EU said:

We could do that ? :

https: //youtu.be/mxskki5epls

 

 

If P-51 can do, why not?

 

https://youtu.be/TolhfyNrCkM?t=2297

 

[Ehret]

28 minutes ago, Sokol1 said:

 

If P-51 can do, why not?

 

https://youtu.be/TolhfyNrCkM?t=2297

 

 

A spin plus quick recovery and a lucky snapshot - this is not what the scene from R-Tails shows.

[LukeFF]

5 hours ago, RAY-EU said:

We could do that ? :

 

 

 

In garbage Hollywood movies, yes.

[Rjel]

As cool as it might be to think "someone" would've had the foresight to save hundreds off captured enemy aircraft, tanks, ships not to mention all the homegrown equipment that was left over in each country, who in the Hell was going to pay for hanging on to now useless product? Where was it all going to be stored for decades until the pain of a world war wore off to the point anyone wanted to look at it all again? People were tired. Economies were in ruins around the world. Not to mention the monumental task of rebuilding most of Europe and Asia. We're damned lucky any of it survived to this day.

[P51DMatt]

8 hours ago, RAY-EU said:

We could do that ? :

 

 

I just spit my coffee out all over my keyboard...

[Higaluto]

Actually there are alot of documents on the K4 that survived the war, at least thats what i heard from the other company that have a fully modeled K4.  So i think we will get a fairly accurate plane. It was alot harder finding documents on the P47 as almost all was destroyed.

[Rjel]

3 minutes ago, Higaluto said:

Actually there are alot of documents on the K4 that survived the war, at least thats what i heard from the other company that have a fully modeled K4.  So i think we will get a fairly accurate plane. It was alot harder finding documents on the P47 as almost all was destroyed.

And yet many more P-47s exist both static and flyables. It shouldn't be an issue recreating it in this sim accurately.

[Higaluto]

Yes, i asked about this to. But that was not easy and almost impossible to get information that way, either from museums or from pilots flying them today at airshows etc. They just dont care about a video game developer, anyways thats what i was told when i asked why it took so long to develop the P47.

[LLv34_adexu]

19 hours ago, RAY-EU said:

We could do that ? :

 

 

I think only Russian planes can do that in BoX.

18 hours ago, RAY-EU said:

There is a conceptual technical error In these videos when the ME 262 shoot with the 4 of 30 millimeter cannons the P51 D in the cristal the holes of the bullets are less than 7,92 mm like  MG 17 meanwhile  are 30 millimeter MK 108 cannons of compares a 0,7 centimeters holes you see only  in the P51 versus the  3 centimeters like 2 inches  holes of MK 108 cannons ! Should be and impact like you had and  If a bullet of 30 millimeters, 3 centimeters 2 inches touch your body every  bullet means that  could easily make you a hole like your hand so anyone  should be  instantly death , and if are several ones ? , How Like you can see in the en of this video:

 

 

For me, it seems like from 0:40, german 30 mm is modelled pretty same in the BoX. At least now we know the source of developer's FM and DM. At least when I hit SpitIX in to the middle of the wing with 108, it continues flying. Nothing like this:

 

Edited June 7, 2018 by LLv34_adexu

[Legioneod]

38 minutes ago, LLv34_adexu said:

I think only Russian planes can do that in BoX.

 

For me, it seems like from 0:40, german 30 mm is modelled pretty same in the BoX. At least now we know the source of developer's FM and DM. At least when I hit SpitIX in to the middle of the wing with 108, it continues flying. Nothing like this:

 

 

All depends on what it hits. Even in the Video it is said that it is probable that it is lethal but there is always a slim chance of survival.

 

Also that hit was from directly astern going through all the structural frame, I'm curious to see how it would have been at differing angles.

 

I'm not saying it's modeled correctly in-game but you shouldn't expect a one hit kill all the time, there is always variables when it comes to ballistics.

[D3adCZE]

47 minutes ago, LLv34_adexu said:

snip

Are you sure, that you are hitting with 30mm? Mk108 is rather hard to shoot accurately. Try to either shoot with 13mms or 30mms. Not both together, since they have MUCH different ballistic curve. On the other hand, mk151/20 and mk131 are another topic. They have similar ballistic properties and are absolutely destructive when used together.

 

Most of the time 1 hit with 30mm is enough to evaporate red fighter, 2 at most and 3 for bombers.

Edited June 7, 2018 by CSAF-D3adCZE

[LLv34_adexu]

Just now, Legioneod said:

 

All depends on what it hits. Even in the Video it is said that it is probable that it is lethal but there is always a slim chance of survival.

 

Also that hit was from directly astern going through all the structural frame, I'm curious to see how it would have been at differing angles.

 

I'm not saying it's modeled correctly in-game but you shouldn't expect a one hit kill all the time, there is always variables when it comes to ballistics.

You are trying to say that hit from a 70-90 degrees deflection shot straight to the middle of the wing or tip of it from 50-100 m, where spitIX is climbing up, with a 30 mm HE ammunition where huge *puff* effect is seen, could possibly do no damage IRL?

2 minutes ago, CSAF-D3adCZE said:

Are you sure, that you are hitting with 30mm? Mk108 is rather hard to shoot accurately. Try to either shoot with 13mms or 30mms. Not both together, since they have MUCH different ballistic curve. On the other hand, mk151/20 and mk131 are another topic. They have similar ballistic properties and are absolutely destructive when used together.

 

Most of the time 1 hit with 30mm is enough to evaporate red fighter, 2 at most and 3 for bombers.

I don't think that hit from 12,7 mm is doing those huge *puff* clouds. I will tho test this SOON tm. as other Finnish pilots have been noticing same. If the shot goes near fuselage, wing will come off, it will cut the SpitIX in to half, but if the shot is middle or tip of the wing, it does nothing. I had that maybe 4-5 times during fighting at Berloga or Virtualpilots.fi server, (where SpitIX and G-14s are available)

[-TBC-AeroAce]

Aircraft are recycled by governments because they are assets with a value, and they need to recover costs via scrap value or they are contractually or politically obliged to destroy them, TSR 2 prototypes for example. To a government they are just stock and there is no thoughts what so ever towards preservation. Many of the examples that are left are there because of luck such as, was forgot about in a hanger or was lent to a mechanic training school then restored....

[D3adCZE]

13 minutes ago, LLv34_adexu said:

I don't think that hit from 12,7 mm is doing those huge *puff* clouds.

Mk131 is 13mm. Germans use uber metric system, not those banana units US and UK used and is using. If you wish to do some testing, I am able to get onto Berloga and test the damage model and performance of some planes. I could be online at ~22:30 local time(20:30 UTC)

Edited June 7, 2018 by CSAF-D3adCZE

[Legioneod]

11 minutes ago, LLv34_adexu said:

You are trying to say that hit from a 70-90 degrees deflection shot straight to the middle of the wing or tip of it from 50-100 m, where spitIX is climbing up, with a 30 mm HE ammunition where huge *puff* effect is seen, could possibly do no damage IRL?

I don't think that hit from 12,7 mm is doing those huge *puff* clouds. I will tho test this SOON tm. as other Finnish pilots have been noticing same. If the shot goes near fuselage, wing will come off, it will cut the SpitIX in to half, but if the shot is middle or tip of the wing, it does nothing. I had that maybe 4-5 times during fighting at Berloga or Virtualpilots.fi server, (where SpitIX and G-14s are available)

 

No, that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying you should not expect a one hit kill all the time. It all depends on where you hit the aircraft, hitting the wingtip wont be very fatal at all and hitting the mid section of the wing can have various results depending on if it destroys much the internal structure or not.

[LLv34_adexu]

5 minutes ago, CSAF-D3adCZE said:

Mk131 is 13mm. Germans use uber metric system, not those banana units US and UK used and is using. If you wish to do some testing, I am able to get onto Berloga and test the damage model and performance of some planes. I could be online at ~22:30 local time(0:30 UTC)

My bad, don't know exact calibre of my guns. That is too late for me, I think I get someone from our TS to test it. 

EDIT: we are going to test it with Temuri, tonight. Will use Mk108 and some russian 23 mm or something.

Edited June 7, 2018 by LLv34_adexu

[Blackhawk_FR]

25 minutes ago, CSAF-D3adCZE said:

Not both together, since they have MUCH different ballistic curve.

 

Disagree. Cause:

1. There is not so much difference between the ballistic of those 2 guns

2. If you don't put enough deflexion, you'll hit your target with 13mm at least

[Reckoner_]

On 6/5/2018 at 10:14 PM, catchthefoxes said:

it has to be the airplane I'm most looking forward to but it's still bothering how sims are able to recreate it if there are almost no records on it(not regarding engine performance but regarding how to build the engine), how do they know the cockpit looks the way it did? is there a good enough record on the way to build it ? are there any blueprints on it or how to build the airframe?  is there any footage of it or high-quality/film scanned photographs? why the hell are there no more K4s anymore? were they all destroyed? who destroyed them? Why are there more ME 262s than k4s in real life? is there a perfect book or website that gives perfect information about it? I know there are other planes that have very little information on but the K4 bugs me the most. maybe im thinking to hard into this, maybe the k4 and g 14 or g 10 are the exact same aircraft. so far this is the only site that's "good enough" http://kurfurst.org/Performance_tests/109K_PBLeistungen/Leist_109K_EN.html  and apparently, this guy is building one but i have no idea if he gave up https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6R3Ypwb84VY. sorry if I asked too many questions or if I sound as if I have no idea what I'm talking about, I'm just very curious.

 

These two documents might contains some of the info you are looking for.

 

Spoiler

http://www.avialogs.com/index.php/en/aircraft/germany/messerschmitt/bf109/2194todo.html

http://www.avialogs.com/index.php/en/aircraft/germany/messerschmitt/bf109/2193todo.html

 

Edited June 7, 2018 by Reckoner_

[=362nd_FS=RoflSeal]

1 hour ago, LLv34_adexu said:

You are trying to say that hit from a 70-90 degrees deflection shot straight to the middle of the wing or tip of it from 50-100 m, where spitIX is climbing up, with a 30 mm HE ammunition where huge *puff* effect is seen, could possibly do no damage IRL?

Honestly, yes

Couple the Mk108 delayed fuze and the Spitfire's thin wing, the shell could potentially pass completely through the wing be before it explodes

[JG27*Kornezov]

17 hours ago, Sokol1 said:

 

If P-51 can do, why not?

 

https://youtu.be/TolhfyNrCkM?t=2297

 

Here in il 2

 

[LLv34_adexu]

2 hours ago, RoflSeal said:

Honestly, yes

Couple the Mk108 delayed fuze and the Spitfire's thin wing, the shell could potentially pass completely through the wing be before it explodes

But on screen I still see that it exploded? Or is that just wrong animation?

[Voidhunger]

From my short observation when you hit spitfire in the middle of the wing there is a chance that the wing will not break. Seems to me that the blast is spread out to more hit boxes. When the round hit the root of the wing , it will break. Also the tail, when you hit the elevator it will often break, but when you hit the rudder the hit is spread out to elevator. There are only some holes. Like I wrote recently in a different thread , spitfire can survive even 4 hits by the MK108 cannon.

[sevenless]

33 minutes ago, Voidhunger said:

Like I wrote recently in a different thread , spitfire can survive even 4 hits by the MK108 cannon.

 

How could that possibly be? And how likely is that?

 

Some Mk 108 damage pics:

 

 

Edited June 7, 2018 by sevenless

[FTC_Riksen]

Never had more an aircraft take more than 2 30mm rounds for me. It is usually 1 to 2 hits ... 4 hits is just too much

[D3adCZE]

3 hours ago, F/JG300_Faucon said:

 

Disagree. Cause:

1. There is not so much difference between the ballistic of those 2 guns

2. If you don't put enough deflexion, you'll hit your target with 13mm at least

mk 108:

Rate of fire: 650 rounds/min

Muzzle velocity: 540 m/s (1,770 ft/s)

I could not find mass of a projectile.

 

mk 151/20:

Rate of fire: 750 rpm

Muzzle velocity: 805 m/s (M-Geschoss); 705 m/s (HE-T, AP)

Projectile(M-Geschoss) weight: 95g

Muzzle energy of the projectile: 30781J

 

mg 131:

Muzzle velocity : ~ 750 metres per second (2,500 ft/s)

Rate of fire : ~ 900 rounds per minute

Projectile(HEI-T) weight: 34g

Muzzle energy of the projectile: 9562J

 

Note that these calculations are for perfect environment without gravity, air resistance and vertical convergence targetting(as we lack this feature in the game from what I know). In real world, the differences will be much more severe.

 

Spoiler

From the data we can see that much heavier and slower round will have completely different ballistic curve, compared to rather light and fast projectile.

Let me give an example. You are in 109 G14 with mk108 and mg131 on board. Enemy is 100m in front of you. Both planes are flying at the speed of 500kph IAS, that is 139 meters per second.  Because the difference between both planes' speeds is 0, we can omit it. 

20mm M-Geschoss will fly through this distance in 0.12 sec, 13mm HEI-T will do it in 0.13 sec and 30mm M-Geschoss will do it in 0.18 sec.

For 200m the times, in the same order - 20, 13, 30, without counting speed loss which will be significant, but it would move us into differential equations , are: 0.25sec , 0.27 sec and 0.37 sec. 

If you are shooting at 100m at the plane traveling straight in front of you, the enemy plane will move for 16.7 meters until 20mm reaches it, 18.1 meters until 13mm reaches it and 25 meters until the 30mm reaches it. This tells you that due to the speed of those projectiles, you must lead much more, the difference of point of impact between 13mm and 30mm on 100 m distance is 6.9 meters, it is still possible to hit Spit with both of these guns. However, if the distance is 200m, the difference is greater: 34.75 meters, 37.53 meters and 51.43 meters. That is 13.9 meters of movement between the impact of 13mm and 30mm round. It is impossible to hit a Spit with both of these rounds. 

 

Now lets calculate this for situation, where you are in 90 degree deflection. Both planes are at 500kph IAS, but he is going perpendicular to your trajectory. 

Now we must add 139 m/s to the velocity of the projectile, it will be like this: 994 m/s for 20mm, 889 m/s for 13mm and 679 m/s for 30mm.

The projectiles will close the distance of 100m in(same order- 20, 13, 30mm): 0.1sec, 0.11sec and 0.15 sec

For 200m it is: 0.2 sec, 0.22sec and 0.29 sec. 

That means, that if you are shooting from 100m, you must lead for 13.9 meters, 15.29 meters and 20.85 meters. That means, that you have 5 meters difference between point of impact of 13mm round or 30mm round.

If you are shooting from 200m, you must lead for 27.8 meters, 30.58 meters and 40.31 meters. At this range there is no way that you can hit simultaneously with 13mm and 30mm rounds. That is 9.73 meter difference.

Conclusion is that if you want to shoot all 109s guns at the same time, you should pick combination of 13mm and 20mm, as they have similar ballistics on these distances. Shooting 13mm and 30mm at the same time is useless as you probably will waste either 30mm or 13mm ammunition as it will miss. Please note that in real environment, those distances and differences will be even greater due to the air resistance and gravity influence. 

 

Your point 1) debunked and 2) as well as you can completely miss both of your burts due to the distance between point of impact and the fact, that Spit is ~9.2 meters long. 13mm rounds can land ~26cm in front of the Spit, and 30mm will land ~26cm behind it's tail.

 

The best range for simultaneous use of 13mm and 30mm is from 20 to 50 meters.

 

 

Sorry for big wall of text, no potato though.

Edited June 7, 2018 by CSAF-D3adCZE
Moved calculations into spoiler.

[Voidhunger]

34 minutes ago, sevenless said:

 

How could that possibly be? And how likely is that?

 

Some Mk 108 damage pics:

 

 

Wait for the Jug, MK 108 will be like 7.92mm

[D3adCZE]

10 minutes ago, Voidhunger said:

Wait for the Jug, MK 108 will be like 7.92mm

Hit in the turbo and it will be flying tractor