What do when enemy on 6 and 2vs1?

[Irtis]

Hello!

 

I don't know what really do when someone is on my 6! 

I only know 2 manoeuvres (scissor and a roll on the side/top) but it's really difficult to escape rapidly!

Any tips or easy manoeuvres?

 

And other questions in 2vs1, what can I do? I'm always destroyed..

 

Edit: i play yak plane for now.

 

Thank!

Edited June 4, 2018 by Irtis

[D3adCZE]

If he is in gun range, stay out of his vector of lift, π radians at best and use your turn rate against german planes.

If he is not, he will be soon, use your superior turn rate and E retention in turns against him. 

 

If they are two, good luck. Pray that they are bad. They will most likely beat you to the ground and there kill you. Get a wingman.

[Irtis]

Thank you for your help. I try to correctly understand concepts on energy but during action it's hard to focus on it!

 

 

[LuftManu]

I agree on what CSAF-D3adCZE has said.

People usually try to get away when the enemy is close and sometimes that's not the best idea.

If he is very close you have to obstruct his shot on you the best you can. On a turn, the best way to do this if he is following you is to give negative pitch when he is going to shoot you and change heading.

If he has energy advantage try to tire him. Time always goes in your advantage if you are being engaged and he is not getting hits on you. He will make a mistake.

Avoid low speeds and always check your six when you can.

Also, chat is helpful if someone is on your tail, morevoer flying with a wingman is the best way to clear your tail!

Edited June 5, 2018 by LF_ManuV

[RedKestrel]

An enemy on your six is a worst-case scenario and it will always be difficult to get away. The best thing, obviously, is not to let them on your six in the first place, but this is not very helpful.

Your actions when you have an enemy on your six are dependent on a lot of things:
-your aircraft and their performance (how you climb, turn, dive, roll)
-your airspeed relative to your opponent (who is faster? and by how much)

-your altitude

The most important thing in air combat is what you know. Knowing you turn better at high speeds shows you the way forward. Knowing the enemy turns better at low speeds means you never let yourself get slow. Knowing these things about your enemy makes you less likely to panic and do the wrong thing.

One thing I will say: climbing to evade almost never works! Even in a well climbing aircraft it slows you down right in front of them, giving them an easy shot. If you have someone far behind you you can use a long shallow climb to gain energy and altitude, but if they are right on you it's suicide. So don't climb unless you have to!

So, for example, an aircraft that rolls well should go for a rapid scissoring (perhaps combined with chopping the throttle) to force an overshoot and a snap shot on  your enemy. Bear in mind that roll rates very massively depending on speed, so some planes roll better at high speed and others at slow speed. 

An aircraft that climbs well and rolls well should go for a rolling or vertical scissors (basically an ongoing barrel roll). Once again this can force an overshoot and give you a snap shot or put you on his tail. 

If you have altitude and some separation you can dive away. But if he is already in gun range or nearly in gun range, this is suicidal, since the speed difference will not get you out of gun range fast enough. Not recommended against German fighters, except in the P-40.

You can also try a few back and forth split-s maneuvers to try and lose them and gain speed, plus get them closer to the deck where soviet fighters do better...but this costs you altitude and thus defensive options.

If he is right on your six and already shooting at you, one thing that works for me honestly is the most violent maneuvers possible in as many planes of movement as possible. An aggressive barrel roll, combined with sudden changes in direction, can make you very difficult to hit. When I'm being fired upon I often kick in as much rudder as possible. The side-slip induced is difficult to compensate for, since the enemy will be trying to lead you based on the orientation of your nose, but your flight path is offset from your nose.

In 2 vs. 1 combat the same applies, but you will have a hard time dealing with it, because as soon as you gain an advantage against one opponent the other will be on you. This is why it was rare for pilots to fly alone in combat.

IMO you have to fly very aggressively if you are in the worse-performing aircraft. if you are in the faster aircraft it is a little easier, since you can run away, gain altitude and re-engage at will. But if you are in the slower aircraft IMO the best thing to do is to kill or damage one enemy as soon as possible. My rule of thumb is, if he starts to smoke, leave him alone and focus on his healthy buddy. AI will still attack you but with their engine damaged or control surfaces compromised they are less  of a threat. Finishing them off might open you up to attack from the healthy enemy, so better to focus on him. obviously an outright kill is preferable but not always possible.

Most of my flying is in SP, though I have had some very good fights on the Berloga server. Since I'm familiar with it, I usually fly the I-16. The I-16 is very well suited for low level knife fights and sharp maneuvering. I've often ended up in 2 or even 3 vs 1 scenarios and they, generally speaking, do not end well for me. However, I have managed a couple times to drive off both enemies, sometimes by killing 1. In my most recent excursion a week or so ago I wound up in a rolling scissors with two 109s. I was able to keep them off me long enough for two friendly yaks to come to my rescue and kill both of my enemies. This is another thing about 2 vs. 1. The objective is to live, not kill, because the longer you survive the more likely someone comes to your rescue. This seems strange given how aggressively I fly, but the aggression is just to keep the enemy from being able to seize his advantage. Even snapshots that miss force the enemy to maneuver, throw off his aim, or panic.

Basically in a 2 vs. 1 with the slower craft you always have to be attacking the highest threat, turning into them or engaging them in some way to limit their ability to attack you. Snap-shooting and head-ons are the order of the day, you will not be able to hang out on an enemy's tail for a tracking shot. If he's flying away from you you probably need to be engaging his friend who is likely looking to get on your tail.

Finally, in a 2 vs. 1, even with the slower plane, look for the exit. If you are out of sight of both your enemies, dive away in the opposite direction they are flying and get as far away as possible. Put yourself out of gun range, at least for a while, and try and find some friendlies or gain some altitude.

I'm not a great pilot by any means and I have trouble implementing the theory, but I believe this is all pretty sound advice (I have gotten most of it from others before, in the same position as you). 

Sorry for wall of text, this is something I think about a lot in my attempts to improve.

[Ehret]

If you have some altitude or enough speed to climb a little then:

1) dive hard at 90 degrees

2) start rolling erratically

3) pull up hard at very last moment to avoid the ground

4) hopefully the enemy just crashed trying to follow you or recovered in a different direction

Edited June 5, 2018 by Ehret

[D3adCZE]

16 hours ago, Ehret said:

If you have some altitude or enough speed to climb a little then:

1) dive hard at 90 degrees

2) start rolling erratically

3) pull up hard at very last moment to avoid the ground

4) hopefully the enemy just crashed trying to follow you or recovered in a different direction

4b) get shot down by enemy who managed to learn how to work his stab trim properly. 

At high speeds the 109 outturn yaks. What works is that you pull, and as soon as he pulls the lead on you, you roll around and disappear under his nose. He cannot roll fast enough to follow.

[JG27*Kornezov]

On 6/4/2018 at 12:58 PM, Irtis said:

Hello!

 

I don't know what really do when someone is on my 6! 

I only know 2 manoeuvres (scissor and a roll on the side/top) but it's really difficult to escape rapidly!

Any tips or easy manoeuvres?

 

And other questions in 2vs1, what can I do? I'm always destroyed..

 

Edit: i play yak plane for now.

 

Thank!

You got many good answers but I bet you are even more confused after reading them.
A common mistake is to use "scissor and a roll on the side/top" when the bandit is not in gun's range with no enough energy to catch you. So not every six is equally dangerous.
Regarding the dangerous sixes, that is a problem for every player and looking for solutions never ends.

Regarding 2 on your six I call it "Ace traps". The reason is that even if you are an ace you are very likely going to be shot down. And that is also making the game interesting (constant challenge) because even if you are better  1 on 1 than anyone around you  in the combat area,  if you get yourself  in dangerous situation you are getting shot down.

There is very few I can add to what was previously mentioned. But what I find important is for you to join a squad. In our training what I do:

1. Exercise 1 is to get the guy in front of me and to ask him to show me his defensive maneuvering. Only then I can really assess his level and make proper recommendations that can be immediately useful
2. Exercise 2 to show him the jinking routine as minimum base line.
What jinking does, is that buys you time. Also jinking allows you to defend against more than one bandit. And jinking also allows your team mates to help you, that is not going to happen if you maneuver violently.
 

Edited June 6, 2018 by JG27_Kornezov

[Diggun]

What to do when you have two enemies on your 6? 

 

1) Question your life choices up to this moment.

2) Relax and enjoy your problem!

[Ehret]

2 hours ago, CSAF-D3adCZE said:

4b) get shot down by enemy who managed to learn how to work his stab trim properly. 

At high speeds the 109 outturn yaks. What works is that you pull, and as soon as he pulls the lead on you, you roll around and disappear under his nose. He cannot roll fast enough to follow.

 

It will be a hard but short dive - not high speed necessarily. The point is a bit different than just out-pulling the enemy. It's to get the enemy to mismatch his roll angle moments before the ground. Human reactions are delayed - the defender know in an advance what will be doing - the following attacker don't so he is a subject to reaction lag.  A well timed roll just above recovery point may be impossible to match.

 

To handle this properly the attacker shouldn't follow, keep altitude and wait when the defender lands on the deck. Besides, if you shot your target in such close vertical you are at high risk being hit by damage debris.

Edited June 6, 2018 by Ehret

[D3adCZE]

1 hour ago, Ehret said:

 

It will be a hard but short dive - not high speed necessarily. The point is a bit different than just out-pulling the enemy. It's to get the enemy to mismatch his roll angle moments before the ground. Human reactions are delayed - the defender know in an advance what will be doing - the following attacker don't so he is a subject to reaction lag.  A well timed roll just above recovery point may be impossible to match.

 

To handle this properly the attacker shouldn't follow, keep altitude and wait when the defender lands on the deck. Besides, if you shot your target in such close vertical you are at high risk being hit by damage debris.

Well, being used to 30mm mk108 style(stick my nose into enemy tail and shoot) I am "Hartmanning" myself pretty often. You are right on this one though. Main advantage of red fighters over blue(except 190) is it's roll rate at high speeds.

[Irtis]

Thank you all for your advices. 

I will try to apply it. First step,  i'm in a squad now! And after, just practice all this stuff.. again and again!