The amazing Pe2 gunner strikes again!

[Haza]

Gents,

 

I must admit I have not got to involved in the whole PK issue regarding the Pe-2.  However, today in my HS129, I attacked a Pe-2 that was bombing an airfield and to my delight I watched as I blew his wing off with a salvo from the 30mm and 20mm and watched as he was spinning round, like a record baby, right round, right round, without having even allowed the gunners to hit me.  Then just as I was celebrating my fantastic kill, I was PK'd by the gyro-stabilised gunner from about 300m.  Therefore, does anybody have the stats regarding the number of PKs per side that they can discuss/explain please, as I'm now becoming a little tired over the Pe-2 gunner accuracy! 

Thank you

 

If only the Allied Bomber force over Western Europe had employed a few of these Gyro-stabilised Russian gunners, the war would have been over in '43.

[dkoor]

Unfortunately these kind of things happened a lot in old sturmo as well... but you may find your way around it by hi-speed attacking from your most favourable angle which is also his hardest angle to defend. That is not an easy thing to do in Hs-129 as the crate does not posses some stellar speed which would enable you to position yourself properly and fast.

In lack of more proper words, you can work around it by 'gaming the game', it is possible to rack up anti-bomber (on most difficult Ai) score sky-high.

Edited June 2, 2018 by dkoor

[InProgress]

 

[Leon_Portier]

Track or it didn't happen.

[Lusekofte]

1 minute ago, Leon_Portier said:

Track or it didn't happen.

 

Personally I have no problem believing him, but I do not think this got anything with the PE 2 gunners accuracy per see. I find the 12, something gun in a PE 2 very effective and the hit he describes you can compare with impossible AA hits in other situations. I think there is something else happening in these peculiar instances . A combined weapon effectiveness,/ damage model together with bullet-projectory. 

You see this happening in many occasions in different settings. I simply do not believe it is only gunner accuracy.

Try to man a PE 2 gunner posission , you will feel like a god. It do not take much training to being able to shoot down a  fighter. 

[Porkins]

Hero of the Soviet Union!

[Haza]

I realise not a track, however, this was the engagement (below) as evidence that I'm not talking *ollox, although not I'm sure why it doesn't reflect a kill against me for the other guy, although it is clearly his gunner!  I'm guessing that he had already commenced the bail-out and therefore it doesn't show up as a kill!?  Oh well!!

 

http://il2stat.aviaskins.com:8008/en/sortie/log/3161906/?tour=36

 

http://il2stat.aviaskins.com:8008/en/sortie/log/3161907/?tour=36

 

I always assumed that the HS129 was a fairly well armoured aircraft and gave the pilot some protection. However, perhaps I need to have the invincible cannon proof and nuclear proof crew protection offered in a Pe-2. However, at least I know that the 30mm will blow Pe-2 wings off!!

 

Regards

 

 

Edited June 2, 2018 by Haza

[Leon_Portier]

1 hour ago, LuseKofte said:

Try to man a PE 2 gunner posission , you will feel like a god. It do not take much training to being able to shoot down a

 fighter. 

I disagree, I find the forward facing guns much more effective that any rear gun. Also the bullets of the rear guns tend to go all over the place but the plane. Why do you think its easy to down a fighter? They move all over the place!

Spoiler

 

 

[JG1_Shadepiece]

I understand that it is probably an extremely difficult problem to tackle, and is much more complex than would seem however, it has been documented beyond what should be necessary for the devs to take a look at. The gunners are broken. Period. They need to be adjusted.

[unreasonable]

2 hours ago, LuseKofte said:

 

Personally I have no problem believing him, but I do not think this got anything with the PE 2 gunners accuracy per see. I find the 12, something gun in a PE 2 very effective and the hit he describes you can compare with impossible AA hits in other situations. I think there is something else happening in these peculiar instances . A combined weapon effectiveness,/ damage model together with bullet-projectory. 

You see this happening in many occasions in different settings. I simply do not believe it is only gunner accuracy.

Try to man a PE 2 gunner posission , you will feel like a god. It do not take much training to being able to shoot down a  fighter. 

 

Not Pe2 gunners' accuracy but all gunners' accuracy is the problem. They should not be able to fire at all when spiraling into the ground, but it not only happens but they often get hits if you are not manoeuvering rapidly;  German gunners are no different. 

 

Hits from Pe-2s just feel worse because he has a nastier gun.

[Lusekofte]

1 hour ago, unreasonable said:

They should not be able to fire at all when spiraling into the ground,

Amen to that , accurate shooting in G forces are extremely difficult and I think they should stop firing the moment a plane turn, climb or dive  steeply . It simply have no purpose in real life. You risk shooting at your own plane in relatively low G. 

So AI should stop firing at some point in a maneuver. My point earlier , I think this issue is more than gunner settings . 

[BraveSirRobin]

First of all, the problem is the same with German gunners.  Too often gunners are really good when they probably should be bad, and other times they are terrible when they should have a pretty easy shot.  AI programming isn’t easy.

Edited June 2, 2018 by BraveSirRobin

[NETSCAPE]

This is why you never disengage when you "think" the enemy is going down. VAPORIZE ALL HOSTILES. 

[EAF19_Marsh]

Quote

other times they are terrible when they should have a pretty easy shot.  AI programming isn’t easy.

 

Sometimes 110 gunners seem to miss ridiculous easy shots. Maybe they were reloading?

[LukeFF]

7 hours ago, Haza said:

watched as he was spinning round, like a record baby, right round, right round

 

Excellent reference to the 80s song. ? 

[Gambit21]

5 hours ago, ACG_RED_Shadepiece said:

 The gunners are broken. Period. They need to be adjusted.

 

The AI always knows where you're at, it's getting them to pretend like they don't that's the challenge.

So no, they're not "broken" per se.

 

Haza, I want to see a mission file (or from anyone else for that matter) where this happens.

I'm betting the AI is set to "Ace", which will always lead to this behavior.

[LukeFF]

1 hour ago, Gambit21 said:

The AI always knows where you're at, it's getting them to pretend like they don't that's the challenge.

So no, they're not "broken" per se.

 

And that's exactly what Jason referred to in his Q&A session - it's hard to tell the AI how to miss.

[Lusekofte]

Well I still think it is something wrong with the balance when a gunner in a spinning plane manage to shoot down a fighter. dent it perhaps. It should be possible to get gunners to stop when g forces get to a point

[E69_geramos109]

just feelings man everything is fine with P2

[BraveSirRobin]

10 minutes ago, E69_geramos109 said:

just feelings man everything is fine with P2

 

Fly VVS more often.  You’ll quickly have the same “feelings” about Ju88 gunners.

[LukeFF]

13 minutes ago, E69_geramos109 said:

just feelings man everything is fine with P2

 

Yes, the P2 Orion is a fine plane.

[unreasonable]

5 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

And that's exactly what Jason referred to in his Q&A session - it's hard to tell the AI how to miss.

 

I find that hard to understand since people had no difficulties whatsoever doing it in the Flakmod in RoF. I could even make my own version and make them miss even more. 

 

Anyway, we already have AI settings for low/normal/high that affect the behaviour of flak guns - so how are plane gunners different?

 

You can stop them firing altogether by making their ammo count = 0, or their firing arcs = 0,  if certain simple conditions obtain.

 

[BraveSirRobin]

making them miss isn't hard.  making them miss realistically is the hard part.  which i'm pretty sure is what he meant.

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

2 hours ago, BraveSirRobin said:

 

Fly VVS more often.  You’ll quickly have the same “feelings” about Ju88 gunners.

 

Lol not even close.  Ju88 gunner performance seems better than most other German options, but it's still nowhere near Pe2 gunner performance.  At first I thought this was due to gunner positioning (The 88 has offset positions that allow it to fire dead 6).

 

However, a long time ago it was suggested that gunner AI for different aircraft could be set by the mission designers.  I am curious if this can be set according to plane type, because you would think that bf110 gunners, with a similar tail layout to the Pe-2, would be similarly accurate; but this isn't the case.

 

You can mostly park safely behind a 110, while with the Pe-2 doing so is, depending on aircraft, a high probability death sentence.  Even the 88 isn't the headshot waiting to happen that the Pe-2 is.

 

Basically, a (serious) human gunner should never be looked at as a downgrade.

Edited June 3, 2018 by hrafnkolbrandr

[BraveSirRobin]

7 minutes ago, hrafnkolbrandr said:

 

A long time ago it was suggested that gunner AI for different aircraft could be set by the mission designers.  I am curious if this can be set according to plane type, because you would think that bf110 gunners, with a similar tail layout to the Pe-2, would be similarly accurate; but this isn't the case.

 

The 110 has a single gunner.  The Pe-2 has 2 gunners and 4 guns.  They are not even close to being the same.

 

And the 88 is definitely just as bad as the Pe2.  It may even be worse.

[Haza]

1 hour ago, BraveSirRobin said:

 

The 110 has a single gunner.  The Pe-2 has 2 gunners and 4 guns.  They are not even close to being the same.

 

And the 88 is definitely just as bad as the Pe2.  It may even be worse.

 

I thought that the lower gunner had  4 firing positions with one fixed gun and the other gun that had to be moved between the other three positions (portside, starboard side and upwards although I believe that the latter position is not used in game), therefore the Pe-2 in game has 3 guns or am I missing something apart from the flare gun. I guess the JU-88 although a great gun platform does not shoot wings off or Pk pilots like the Pe-2 does and at the same cosistant rate, otherwise I'm sure we would have heard it from the VVS guys. However my disbelief was being Pk'd in a HS129 by a Pe-2 spiralling downwards minus a mainplane from 300m away. 

 

Regards

Edited June 3, 2018 by Haza

[unreasonable]

30 minutes ago, Haza said:

 

I thought that the lower gunner had  4 firing positions with one fixed gun and the other gun that had to be moved between the other three positions (portside, starboard side and upwards although I believe that the latter position is not used in game), therefore the Pe-2 in game has 3 guns or am I missing something apart from the flare gun. I guess the JU-88 although a great gun platform does not shoot wings off or Pk pilots like the Pe-2 does and at the same cosistant rate, otherwise I'm sure we would have heard it from the VVS guys. However my disbelief was being Pk'd in a HS129 by a Pe-2 spiralling downwards minus a mainplane from 300m away. 

 

Regards

 

If you are hit by the Pe's 12.7mm that will be equivalent in total momentum to at least 5-6 German 7.92mm hits. It could be even more destructive than that comparison due to the concentration of effect and superior ability to penetrate your windshield, engine etc.

 

Problem is I do not recall a "Pe gunner is OP" thread that sorted the out relative accuracy of Pe gunners vs the relative destructiveness of hits.

 

The firing and hitting while in an impossible spin/crash etc is a universal flaw in the game, nothing specific to the Pe-2.  It was there in RoF.   People getting stuck on the six of a Pe-2 is common (I am sure we have all done it) because we (in the fighter) easily overestimate our speed advantage. This happened to actual 109 pilots too.  Being hit by a single 12.7mm round really should be nothing like being hit by a single 7.92mm round.

 

Ideally we could sort out these factors and look at them separately.

 

[Bilbo_Baggins]

8 hours ago, Haza said:

 

I guess the JU-88 although a great gun platform does not shoot wings off or Pk pilots like the Pe-2 does and at the same cosistant rate, otherwise I'm sure we would have heard it from the VVS guys. However my disbelief was being Pk'd in a HS129 by a Pe-2 spiralling downwards minus a mainplane from 300m away. 

 

Regards

 

I sometimes just wish people would stop with their feelings and start providing evidence.. With all due respect, we need to actually start seeing some historical documents and supporting proof, along with recorded tracks and statistics- only then can you expect a case be made with any credibility to approach the devs with. 

 

You talk about Pe-2s taking wings off and PKs from red gunners at impossible closing angles, but you're going to have to provide historical proof against this until any of us here can start taking seriously what you, or others here are claiming. I think it's important that those feelings are put aside until the appropriate historical documentation and proof can be presented here, as these forums are not really the channel to be voicing out such feelings... not without said proof and documentation, that is! 

Edited June 3, 2018 by Mcdaddy

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

Then there's this guy...

 

Quote

You're such a noob.  These things never actually happen if you are properly attacking from the angle of Saturn's third moon on the winter solstice while carrying alabaster and anthricite prayer beads inscribed with the first twelve runes of the futhark.  Pe2 gunners are just fine!  Show me the track.

 

Quote

+1

 

 

Edited June 3, 2018 by hrafnkolbrandr

[Lusekofte]

Personally I do not mind a good defense in a bomber, let the 109 jockeys work for their easy kills. Same with the JU 88 . But during evasive actions gunners simply did not fire . 

And I am not sure if they do, My gunners are way more accurate if I help them with easy light rudder turns, if I start evasive actions they simply do not hit. 

Anyway that is the feeling you get while flying the PE 2.

I think it probably need a tweak or two concerning those seldom instances described here. 

[E69_geramos109]

10 hours ago, BraveSirRobin said:

 

Fly VVS more often.  You’ll quickly have the same “feelings” about Ju88 gunners.

I fly often VVS on TAW and sometimes on wings. And i can tell you that with luck the Ju88 will hit you damaging your engine if you attack from 6. The P2 can kill your pilot, explode your plane or ripp your wing with one hit with a retarded angle. 

 

I even  used the P2 sometimes as a fighter on TAW just to wait emils and F2 on my back to kill them with the gunner so....

[Dakpilot]

Seems there will be a never ending whine until the option in MP is given to fit UBS. 50 cal on Lufwaffe aircraft in multiple manned gunner stations ?

 

Notwithstanding the unlucky wiered snapshots that happen from All AI gunners from unlikely situations (legacy from pretty much all flight sims) this could certainly do with looking at.. But of course it is actually only a Pe-2 problem... Not

 

Cheers, Dakpilot 

[Wolfram-Harms]

Maybe the rear gunners must be lethal like this - otherwise our top guns would kill them by the dozens (I won't mention any names, especially not Scharfi's...) ?

 

But I found, that I learned to approach and kill them better, without getting damaged (well, sometimes they do, of course).
It seems to be important to approach them in a curved path, to make it harder for them to adjust their aim.
It seems most deadly for the attacker, to approach them in a straight line.

 

So, if the gunners would be totally precise AI shooters, they would hit me the same easy way EVERY time.
But in a curved approach, and if you don't go too close - they don't.

 

 

Edited June 3, 2018 by Wolfram-Harms

[unreasonable]

Exactly - I think the AI is predicting a straight line path:  at best it is predicting a constant rate of change in the path. If you are constantly changing the rate of change of your path you defeat the formula: by the time the shots arrive at your predicted position, you have changed your path.  So, obviously, at shorter range you have less time to change your path, plus you present a wider aspect as a target.  Hence the advice you see about getting really close to fire may apply to fighter targets, but to any target with a defensive gun it is very, very stupid.  Open fire at maximum range. If you are chasing a bomber the defending gun has effectively a greater range than you anyway.

 

The problem in the firing while spinning case is that the AI can do the calculation almost instantly, which is clearly wrong. But it can be defeated in the same way. 

[=362nd_FS=RoflSeal]

The most annoying thing is the fact that gunners have perfect situational awareness and can "track" you even if you are out of their field of vision, and when you enter it they absolutely nail. A good example is Ju-88 and Pe-2 ventral gunners, where if you do a high attack, you obviously pass below the bomber for a split second at high speed. Well, the AI gunners don't care, they are onto you the moment you enter the gimbal limits of the gun. Imo the Gunner should have delay of something like 1/4 to 1/3 a second, so they can still nail you if you are approaching on a constant bearing, but otherwise, they should have a much harder time/

[Haza]

12 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

Yes, the P2 Orion is a fine plane.

 

So was the Neptune.

[Bilbo_Baggins]

4 hours ago, hrafnkolbrandr said:

Then there's this guy...

These things never actually happen if you are properly attacking from the angle of Saturn's third moon on the winter solstice while carrying alabaster and anthricite prayer beads inscribed with the first twelve runes of the futhark.  Pe2 gunners are just fine!  Show me the track.

 

 

 

Luftwhiner doctrine should have been followed through with in Haza's wingless Pe2 engagement here. With an enemy Pe2 in a wingless spin, an inverted snap roll shot, bouncing the round off the pilot seat to silence the rear gunner is what should have been applied in the Henschel here. His PK from the Pe2 gunner could be avoided. And these Luftwhiners think they know how they should attack Pe-2s!

Edited June 3, 2018 by Mcdaddy

[Wolfram-Harms]

28 minutes ago, Mcdaddy said:

..an inverted snap roll shot, bouncing the round off the pilot seat to silence the rear gunner is what should have been applied in the Henschel here.
His PK from the Pe2 gunner could be avoided. And these Luftwhiners think they know how they should attack Pe-2s!

 

The new pilots they send out here these days - enough to make you weep...!

 

 

[LLv24_SukkaVR]

23 hours ago, EAF19_Marsh said:

 

Sometimes 110 gunners seem to miss ridiculous easy shots. Maybe they were reloading?

 

110 has ridiculously narrow field of fire. So narrow the gunner almost feels useless. Maybe they simply couldn't engage the target, or they were reloading like you said.

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

The gunner AI should be reworked so it isn't as good with quick deflection snapshots, the Pe-2 is the best case scenario for the gunner AI, as it has a good unrestricted field of fire paired with a high velocity, powerful high rate of fire gun and its belt fed so the gunner doesn't have to stop to reload.

The B-25C will also be a similar case, with it's twin turrets and twin tail design.

 

For the German side if one day we get a Do 217 or a Ju 188 they would be troublesome as well, in one case with a MG 131 turret in a unobstructed twin tail, and the other one with two rear gunners, one being a turret with an MG 151/20 in some cases
 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 3, 2018 by -=PHX=-SuperEtendard