Gyro sight

[BOO]

2 minutes ago, 56RAF_Roblex said:

 

No argument here.  It just seemed like some people expected the gyro to magically remove the problems of using the wrong convergence.

The problem with sims is we all are too comfortable with the sniper blip kill where expending more than 4 rounds is considered amateur. The MkII is an aid to good gunnery, not a replacement for it for sure!!

Just now, ATAG_dB said:

I am always right. Ask my wife LMFAO

Which one - the first, second or third? ?

[CisTer-dB-]

Just now, BOO said:

The problem with sims is we all are too comfortable with the sniper blip kill where expending more than 4 rounds is considered amateur. The MkII is an aid to good gunnery, not a replacement for it for sure!!

Very true

[ZachariasX]

Set convergence defines the range from a minimum to a maximum at wich you can obtain a gun solution on your enemy. It is not that guns are usless BUT at said distance. How big this range is in wich you can have a gon solution depends on the arrangement of your guns. The narrower and nearer to centerline, this range gets larger. The more apart, the more this window closes.

 

 

If you set convergence to say 250 m, then you can expect to land hits at ranges, say, anywhere between 150 to 300 m. Also know that in the first 250 m, there will hardly be any ballistic drop. Beyond 350 m, drop gets significant.

 

Knowing that, you can creep up to your foe and twist the range knob (after you identified the type of enemy AC and set wingspan correctly) until it the piper matches the wingspan of the enemy AC. You can read then the distance to your foe on the scale next to the range knob. As long as you are within the ranges that make a gun solution possible according to your gun arrangement, you will have computed the lead you require to land hits.

 

The „range“ knob is meant to be played with. You do not just set it after your exact gun convergence. Else it would be factory set along with the harmonization of your guns. Instead, Thy even put it as a twist axis on the rhrottle lever in the P-51 to provide some sort of HOTAS arrangement.

[CisTer-dB-]

4 minutes ago, BOO said:

The problem with sims is we all are too comfortable with the sniper blip kill where expending more than 4 rounds is considered amateur. The MkII is an aid to good gunnery, not a replacement for it for sure!!

Which one - the first, second or third? ?

 

LOL I am a quick learner BOO, second? Never gonna happen

[BOO]

2 minutes ago, 56RAF_Roblex said:

 

That is the ideal way to use the sight yes.  Personally I would always keep the convergence dialed in and  If the gyro showed that the target was a bit over my convergence range I would adjust by eye rather than fiddle with the settings in combat.

 

This

 

Unless its a 111, then I might take a punt with the range. But ive also tweaked the range against 109s to see if it works well and it does provided the tweaks are relatively small. Where it can be something of a bonus is against those fly guys who judge your distance and move just before you fire. Shoving on a bit more range and scoring even a non critical hit messes em up. 

 

Anyhow its all moot when the mossie arrives! ? 

[CisTer-dB-]

15 minutes ago, ZachariasX said:

Thy even put it as a twist axis on the rhrottle lever in the P-51 to provide some sort of HOTAS arrangement

Also true but the P51 had a shot gun .50 cal 1100 yards convergence pattern with a lethal cone of lead was a bit different then what we have on a spit. The other aircraft that had a similar system was in the 190 but again the cannon are in the nose so the convergence was more irrelevant.

 

As for the MK IID I am convince that no one in the heat of the battle was fighting with the left hand on the gunsight to change the range while twisting and turning 

 

     

Edited May 29, 2018 by ATAG_dB

[BOO]

27 minutes ago, baylor703 said:

Just out of curiosity, what convergence do you all typically go with? I have success at 300, but change it up from time to time. My reasoning is because any further past that distance is tough to hit anyway, and when you're closer you're still going to get hits because the path hasn't criss-crossed yet.

 

220 yrds - makes snap setting the range if I forget easy, allows me to maintain a decent amount of fire on target at closer ranges (150Yrd using the night mode) without having to favour a side to swing and is good up to 300 yrds (and probably a bit beyond). 

 

TBH with aerodynamically more efficient cannon (and the amount of movement that can happen in a split second at the receiving end) I'm not sure convergence is as critical as it may have been with early MGs. Rake a 109 with 3 of your 8 .303 in a sim and he has a tale to tell. Hit the same with a single cannon shell and he has no tail  at all (or wings for that matter). 

13 minutes ago, ATAG_dB said:

Also true but the P51 had a shot gun .50 cal 1100 yards convergence pattern with a lethal cone of lead was a bit different then what we have on a spit. The other aircraft that had a similar system was in the 190 but again the cannon are in the nose so the convergence was more irrelevant.

 

As for the MK IID I am convince that no one in the heat of the battle was fighting with the left hand on the gunsight to change the range while twisting and turning 

 

     

190 cannon aint in the nose. I confirmed this with your ex also. 

 

She did say one of the most annoying things about you was the fact you were always mixing your 109s up with you 190s. Very embarrassing in polite company...

Edited May 29, 2018 by BOO

[CisTer-dB-]

10 minutes ago, BOO said:

She did say one of the most annoying things about you was the fact you were always mixing your 109s up with you 190s.

LOL But she had a GREAT six.

 

Did she told you about that I still mixup my left from my right.

Edited May 29, 2018 by ATAG_dB

[BOO]

10 minutes ago, ATAG_dB said:

LOL But she had a GREAT six.

 

Did she told you about that I still mixup my left from my right.

Nope but this was spotted coming into Heathrow recently.....

[CisTer-dB-]

3 minutes ago, BOO said:

Nope but this was spotted coming into Heathrow recently.....

LMao. Your still struggling with the way to pronounce pendulum or your good now?

[BOO]

Just now, ATAG_dB said:

LMao. Your still struggling with the way to pronounce pendulum or your good now?

SCHWINGTHING

[Ehret]

4 hours ago, baylor703 said:

Just out of curiosity, what convergence do you all typically go with? I have success at 300, but change it up from time to time. My reasoning is because any further past that distance is tough to hit anyway, and when you're closer you're still going to get hits because the path hasn't criss-crossed yet.

 

 

I use 450m for guns in wings; 350m for mixed (wings and in the nose); 250m for fuselage guns mounted on the top. I optimized for the vertical convergence so bullets stay relatively level in the sight's center. It would be a bit better if both (vert and horiz) convergences could be set independently.

Edited May 29, 2018 by Ehret

[Alexmarine]

1 hour ago, baylor703 said:

Just out of curiosity, what convergence do you all typically go with? 

 

Depends on the plane. I go from 200 m on the I-16 to 500 m on most of the german fighters and heavy fighters.

[Pict]

15 hours ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

Anyone have a clue what units the gunsight range adjustment is calibrated in?

 

I take a punt at yards, being in a British aircraft...

 

15 hours ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

Also, it feels a lot like a game within the game...   Chasing the pipper all over to try to get it on a maneuvering enemy...  I do better with the standard sight honestly.

 

That's an interesting analogy that I tend to agree with, even although I haven't spent much time on it and so haven't given it enough of a chance just yet.

 

However, the thing that holds me back from using it enough to get good with it is it's sheer size and the way it makes the all important RPM gauge awkward to read quickly.

 

All that said, it's a well put together and welcome addition to the game.

[ZachariasX]

1 hour ago, ATAG_dB said:

As for the MK IID I am convince that no one in the heat of the battle was fighting with the left hand on the gunsight to change the range while twisting and turning 

But YOU can do it on your HOTAS.

[BOO]

40 minutes ago, 19//Rekt said:

 

Am I the only one who uses yards and meters interchangeably (in game and for general purposes)?

 

Honestly I envy and admire the person who lives his or her life with such precision that the difference between the two would actually matter!

 

Yard to metre - All I do is take 10% off the yards and add 1m for every 100 metres. 

 

Metre to yard I just add 10% of the metre to the its total

[Legioneod]

4 hours ago, baylor703 said:

Just out of curiosity, what convergence do you all typically go with? I have success at 300, but change it up from time to time. My reasoning is because any further past that distance is tough to hit anyway, and when you're closer you're still going to get hits because the path hasn't criss-crossed yet.

 

I use 300 yds, it's close to what the P-51 and P-47 were set to historically.

[unreasonable]

I am happy with 300 mards - with the Spitfire, at 600 mards the bullet streams are still only as far apart as the guns on your wings, albeit with more dispersion, so the convergence itself is not going to cause huge problems, if you add a mard or two of elevation.  The lead is far more of an issue. 

[Sokol1]

9 hours ago, ATAG_dB said:

As for the MK IID I am convince that no one in the heat of the battle was fighting with the left hand on the gunsight to change the range while twisting and turning      

 

He don't need put hands in gunsight for adjust range, just turn throttle knob:

 

 

https://forum.axishistory.com/download/file.php?id=11883&sid=a21dcc7b950853844833b71ae61946a6

 

The disk (*pulley) in the throttle near cockpit wall adjust gunsight range through this two cables visible in the picture. Is the same system used in P-51.

 

 

" This new sight became the Mark II Gyro Sight, which was first tested in late 1943 with production examples becoming available later in the same year. In the Mark II the pilot had to set the wingspan of the target, and use a throttle mounted control to keep the target centered British Developments The Mark II was also subsequently produced in the US by Sperry as the K-14 (USAAF) and Mk18 (Navy) "

 

"In the right half of the screen was the gyro-controlled ring of six diamonds. The diameter of the ring was adjusted by foot pedals in the turret version of the sight, and by a twist grip on the pilot's throttle lever on the fighter type."

 

Edited May 29, 2018 by Sokol1

[-TBC-AeroAce]

When setting the range wheel do you use the top of the white marker or the middle? 

[Legioneod]

57 minutes ago, Sokol1 said:

 

He don't need put hands in gunsight for adjust range, just turn throttle knob:

 

 

https://forum.axishistory.com/download/file.php?id=11883&sid=a21dcc7b950853844833b71ae61946a6

 

The throttle disk near cockpit wall adjust gunsight through this two cables visible in the picture. Is the same system used in P-51.

 

 

" This new sight became the Mark II Gyro Sight, which was first tested in late 1943 with production examples becoming available later in the same year. In the Mark II the pilot had to set the wingspan of the target, and use a throttle mounted control to keep the target centered British Developments The Mark II was also subsequently produced in the US by Sperry as the K-14 (USAAF) and Mk18 (Navy) "

 

"In the right half of the screen was the gyro-controlled ring of six diamonds. The diameter of the ring was adjusted by foot pedals in the turret version of the sight, and by a twist grip on the pilot's throttle lever on the fighter type."

 

 

This is what alot of players don't understand in the videos I've watched. They just set the range and leave it instead of adjusting it as the fight goes on. They'll have the gunsight range set to 600yds and their target will only be 200-300 yds away and they wonder why they miss the target. The sight wont calculate lead properly unless the range is set to the target.

 

No matter what your convergence is set to you have to adjust the gunsight to the range of the target to get correct deflection.

Edited May 29, 2018 by Legioneod

[-TBC-AeroAce]

12 minutes ago, Legioneod said:

 

No matter what your convergence is set to you have to adjust the gunsight to the range of the target to get correct deflection.

 

Yes but surely shooting at a range that is not the convergence range is stupid. 

[Legioneod]

2 minutes ago, AeroAce said:

 

Yes but surely shooting at a range that is not the convergence range is stupid. 

Depends on the situation. If your convergence is set to 300 and you shoot 4 or 500yds your rounds will still hit the target. The sight is made to be adjusted constantly, the only way to get accurate use of the gunsight is to adjust your range to target not to convergence.

If you adjust your gunsight to your convergence you will only get accurate deflection when the target is at that range, if you shoot outside of your set range the gunsight will not calculate deflection correctly and you will miss.

[CisTer-dB-]

4 minutes ago, Legioneod said:

 

If you adjust your gunsight to your convergence you will only get accurate deflection when the target is at that range, if you shoot outside of your set range the gunsight will not calculate deflection correctly and you will miss.

 

Well if you are not in range you just don't shoot. There is no use to shoot something at 600m if your convergence is at 200m, unless of course you want to waste amo  

Edited May 29, 2018 by ATAG_dB

[TheWarsimmer]

Convergence is just ideal, and it's obvious that's what you want to attempt to be at. That being said, if I'm in a dogfight and my target knows I'm there, and I know I can hit him and possibly take him down at 100 or 400 yards, I'm pulling the trigger. I don't care if my convergence is 300. 

[CisTer-dB-]

3 minutes ago, baylor703 said:

Convergence is just ideal, and it's obvious that's what you want to attempt to be at. That being said, if I'm in a dogfight and my target knows I'm there, and I know I can hit him and possibly take him down at 100 or 400 yards, I'm pulling the trigger. I don't care if my convergence is 300. 

That is also true  But personally I use a very close convergence 200m , I kinda suck at shooting lol so if my target is 500m I just wait  

Edited May 29, 2018 by ATAG_dB

[Legioneod]

11 minutes ago, ATAG_dB said:

 

Well if you are not in range you just don't shoot. There is no use to shoot something at 600m if your convergence is at 200m, unless of course you want to waste amo  

No, sometimes you only have a few seconds to pull the trigger, if you wait too long you could lose the fight. The sight is made to be adjusted constantly, you can wait till your in range if you want but you'll miss good opportunities to kill your target quickly.

6 minutes ago, baylor703 said:

Convergence is just ideal, and it's obvious that's what you want to attempt to be at. That being said, if I'm in a dogfight and my target knows I'm there, and I know I can hit him and possibly take him down at 100 or 400 yards, I'm pulling the trigger. I don't care if my convergence is 300. 

This. Convergence is not the end all be all, even if half your rounds miss as long as you have proper deflection/range you can bring down your target.

 

Also, many times the convergence was set to different ranges for different guns that way you get a spread pattern instead of just hitting one point. In a situation like this your convergence means next to nothing because its different for each pair of guns.

 

EDIT: Just a side note, set your convergence to around the midpoint of your gunsights max range (so if max range is 800 set it to 400 or 450) this way at least some for your rounds will hit the target no matter what range you set the gunsight.

 

Edited May 29, 2018 by Legioneod

[BOO]

1 minute ago, baylor703 said:

Convergence is just ideal, and it's obvious that's what you want to attempt to be at. That being said, if I'm in a dogfight and my target knows I'm there, and I know I can hit him and possibly take him down at 100 or 400 yards, I'm pulling the trigger. I don't care if my convergence is 300. 

Yup - this. Go back to the RL where it mattered and its always this. Taking your chances and coming home. Not snipering every last round and following the dude like a lost puppy until the stars align and the tealeaves look a bit like a dog with two.....whatever..... the giro and its adjustable range is a good cue for lead especially with heavy calibre weapons when one round can make a big difference. But you own gunnery eye and experience of deflection shooting is just as, if not more important, especially in snap shot situations. 

 

 

[Art-J]

@ ATAG_db and AeroAce, do you guys really want us to believe that you've never ever fired at anything outside of exact convergence range (outside meaning not only further, but closer as well?) in this or any other simulator? If the simulators are/were capable of adjusting fixed reticles to estimate distance at all that is . Somehow I rather doubt it ?.

 

Believe ort not, for us, mere mortals, such situation do happen every now and then, usually with engagement short of convergence point. That's what the throttle grip adjustment was invented for in gyro sights, followed in 1950s by radar ranging and still used to this day.

[CisTer-dB-]

 

 

11 minutes ago, Art-J said:

never ever fired at anything outside of exact convergence range

 

Of course I did, but within +/- 200 m that's acceptable behond that I don't I save my amo. Unless of course is a none moving or big one.

 

Again on a Spit that is, I don't care about it on a 109 or YAk of LA5

Edited May 29, 2018 by ATAG_dB

[BOO]

I think the matter of convergence fixed and the flexibility of the range has been resolved and agreed on. The phrase "use within acceptable limits" seems most apt. 

[-TBC-AeroAce]

6 hours ago, Art-J said:

@ ATAG_db and AeroAce, do you guys really want us to believe that you've never ever fired at anything outside of exact convergence range (outside meaning not only further, but closer as well?) in this or any other simulator? If the simulators are/were capable of adjusting fixed reticles to estimate distance at all that is . Somehow I rather doubt it ?.

 

Believe ort not, for us, mere mortals, such situation do happen every now and then, usually with engagement short of convergence point. That's what the throttle grip adjustment was invented for in gyro sights, followed in 1950s by radar ranging and still used to this day.

 

I shoot out of convergence all the time!!!! I just look for the sweet spot!

 

With wing guns... they don't tend to hit much if you fire outside of convergence!

 

Anyway, I am now natural with the standard sight but the gyro puts me off because I chase it.

 

I have got better with the gyro sight and think in the end It will be better, just a matter of time I guess.

Edited May 30, 2018 by AeroAce

[BlitzPig_EL]

8 hours ago, AeroAce said:

When setting the range wheel do you use the top of the white marker or the middle? 

 

I was wondering that as well.   That setting is pretty vague looking to me.

 

BTW, I use 280 meters for my convergence, so that would be 306 yards, so saying that meters and yards can be used interchangeably is going to be a bit problematic.

[-TBC-AeroAce]

1 minute ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

 

I was wondering that as well.   That setting is pretty vague looking to me.

 

BTW, I use 280 meters for my convergence, so that would be 306 yards, so saying that meters and yards can be used interchangeably is going to be a bit problematic.

 

It is the top of the while tape!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Not the centre arrow! If you select the tech chat with tips it will tell you exactly how the sight is set!

[EAF19_Marsh]

The sight does seem to obstruct a lot of instruments compared to pics, especially the boost gauge. Even the basic wiki pic does not suggest it was low / right enough to stop the pilot seeing this.

[BOO]

6 minutes ago, EAF19_Marsh said:

The sight does seem to obstruct a lot of instruments compared to pics, especially the boost gauge. Even the basic wiki pic does not suggest it was low / right enough to stop the pilot seeing this.

 The Boost gauge ? The only active gauge partially obscured is the RPM.

[Diggun]

My biggest problem so far is how slowly you crank the dang wheels. Mind you, doing those fine adjustments in thick flying gloves probably wasn't that speedy a process. I have to say I love it, it's definitely improved my shooting. I do tend to leave the fixed element on too. The combo of the .50's, 20mm's and gyro sight really is a delete button....

[Art-J]

Re. instruments visibility - It is quite a clunky setup indeed, I was surprised how much instrument panel it obstructs compared to its later, cleaner & leaner American production version, as in DCS Mustang. A bit inconvenient for someone like me who doesn't use technochat and relies 100% on gauges. Will take a while to get used to.

Edited May 30, 2018 by Art-J

[EAF19_Marsh]

Quote

The Boost gauge ? The only active gauge partially obscured is the RPM.

 

Quite correct, I meant RPM gauge.

 

Looking at basic pictures - and allowing for pilot perspective - it does not appear that the sight should obscure much of the instrument panel.

[-TBC-AeroAce]

I think the sight is too low. I might be wrong.