Serious Stuka Issues

[NETSCAPE]

I have been working my butt off on templates, groups and new logic for a new and improved Stuka campaign. The formation logic actually works well given enough distance for the Staffel (4 x Ketten) to form up. I am very pleased with it. It's an array of waypoints with different speeds dictated by proximity values to get 4 separate groups of planes to form one large formation after taking off. In theory and testing it works well. In practice it's a bit tricky but I got it all to work out in an actual dive bombing mission. I greatly appreciate the Devs increasing the Stuka AI speeds thus making my formation logic a reality. But a new host of Stuka issues is apparent in the post-Kuban versions.

 

I should note that while building my logic templates I tested the dive bombing BELOW 4000m and it worked as it always used to work. Ironically I did this "just to be sure"....

 

When bombing Stalingrad 4000-4500m seems more realistic and that's what I'd prefer to use. Here's what I've encountered on my new dive bombing mission (altitude of the staffel ranges from 3975 to 4050m):

 

• Once an attack mcu is triggered the wingman blast past their flight lead for no apparent reason. I typically use a distance of 5000m from WP -> Attack. With this new AI it is beyond ridiculous over that course of 5000m. I tried 1000m out of curiosity, that caused issues of the AI not attacking at all. So I then settled on 3000m to give the AI some time to adjust course for targets (talking like 1-5 degrees here) while avoiding the wingman zooming past their flight leads. Note, this issue happens at any altitude.
• Planes enter into a much steeper dive than they used to. So steep in-fact that I believe the AI is not dropping bombs due to this factor. The dive is almost a perfect 90 degrees followed by a super low altitude pull-out. Initially I was SO excited to see this until I realized the vast majority of them fail to release bombs...
• On RARE occasion that  a few bombs get dropped they do so from around 2000m altitude which is unacceptable. Again I am assuming the AI is thinking "better now than never", due to the steep angle they are diving at. 

 

Things I've ruled out as a cause:

 

• wind speed and direction adversely affecting the dive
• target durability too low thus rendering lack of targets to attack
• Stuka Kette proximity to one another being too close during the attack
• WP -> Attack MCU distance (tested 1000, 2000, 3000, 5000m)

 

Other than those new issues the same old unfixed AI problems become a chore to deal with:

 

• simple V formation falls apart from a basic turn and it takes up to 5000m to reform after the wingmens swinging and swaying around (nb4 lower waypoint speeds)
• once in V formation the wingman oscillate from closer to further from the flight leader
• Stuka's release their bombs and pull out of their dive far too high in altitude. It should be below 1000m.

 

I can live with the latter issues I've stated, we do and have been for a long time. But if Stuka's can't do high altitude dive bombing than I gotta throw in the rag I'm afraid. 

[NETSCAPE]

EDIT: I guess I could hope for a hot fix and in the mean time set the force complete's in my RTB logic to use the new emergency bomb drop feature so they can at least fly with the correct speed back to base rather than lugging a SC500 back to Karpovka. 

 

Or I could switch gears from StG 2 to KG 55.....

[Juri_JS]

I think you should discuss the Stuka problems directly with the devs. Send them a test mission and describe the problems in detail. That's how I got a few smaller AI bugs fixed.

[NETSCAPE]

3 hours ago, Juri_JS said:

I think you should discuss the Stuka problems directly with the devs. Send them a test mission and describe the problems in detail. That's how I got a few smaller AI bugs fixed.

 

Right, I've done the same with a He 111 AI bug. I just wanted to check in with everyone first and see whats up.

 

I just noticed with some other attack aircraft the wingmen do the same "zoom past flight lead" thing when the attack mcu is fired too. I should have stated I am using the attack area command btw. 

 

-------------------------------------------------

 

EDIT: I just set up a simple mission to see if I could reproduce the bug and make a report. At first I tried 3 stukas with 3 trucks as targets. Then I tried fake blocks. Then I tried 12 stuka's with both target types. It all worked perfect other than the erratic formation break-up when the attack mcu is triggered.

 

I copied the last waypoints, attacks, and targets from the new problem child mission where I first observed this issue... so you guys can see what I'm talking about. I created an in-air formation for this test that has the exact altitude and similar form of my original mission: Stuka Bug.rar (use auto-pilot immediately and observe the dives) - that test, using my exact waypoints, attacks and targets apparently works fine when pasted into a new test mission. By works I mean they drop bombs, albeit at 2000+ meters altitude...odd. 

 

Interestingly I tested an old Sirens of Death mission, same sort of high alt dive bomb mission. Conveniently those old ones are in-air starts. Yep SAME dive bomb issue, little to no bombs dropped due to steep dive angle... yet if I make a friggin test mission from scratch or copy-paste some stuff like in the example I posted it works fine.

 

Edited May 28, 2018 by NETSCAPE

[Gambit21]

Welcome to my world.

Trying to build a campaign (between editor crashes) around new and annoying AI bugs that break your previous work, not to mention AI that holds formation like chickens being chased around a barn yard. 

 

I've reported the attack bug where the other aircraft attack ahead of the leader as well.

[NETSCAPE]

1 minute ago, Gambit21 said:

Welcome to my world.

Trying to build a campaign (between editor crashes) around new and annoying AI bugs that break your previous work, not to mention AI that holds formation like chickens being chased around a barn yard. 

 

I've reported the attack bug where the other aircraft attack ahead of the leader as well.

 

With my new system I get a crash maybe every 20 hours of work. And right when it happens I'm like "I knew I shouldn't have done that" - for me I know what causes the crashes and just try to avoid doing those things but sometimes impatience gets the best of me and ...click...crash. I can say for sure that using the editor with my intel is far more stable than my amd was. Not trying to be a fanboy here but that's just my personal observation. 

 

Ok good to know that you reported the speeding wingmen.

 

The AI changes made with the Kuban release forced me to rework maybe half of my 110 campaigns attacks since they changed how AI prioritized targets in an attack area mcu. This was pretty easy and fast to work around for me. And obvious other stuff had to be reworked like weather ect...

 

It's funny man I actually deleted my Sirens of Death thread the other day just because of my executive decision to create a new and improved one. Then I actually tested it post-kuban. What a joke... I have no idea how people were coping with and still playing and enjoying it. Literally 12-24 stuka's not dropping their bombs. wew lad.

 

I love this game. I know you love this game. But man, AI work needs to be a priority. Not only for mission editor plebs like us but for the sake of the new career mode. Honestly I can't even get into a career. I see a giant V formation of Junkers or Heinkels and it just kills it for me...... I'm sure it's a-ok for fighter folks though. This is what drives me to create something that resembles historically accurate formations. 

[Yogiflight]

1 hour ago, NETSCAPE said:

I love this game. I know you love this game. But man, AI work needs to be a priority. Not only for mission editor plebs like us but for the sake of the new career mode. Honestly I can't even get into a career.

I agree with every word. I start every now and then a new career, hoping it might work better than the previous ones, and lose interest after a few missions, because the AI kills completely the emersion, especially in ground attack missions, with attack aircrafts circling around the target in the AAA fire, or bombers waving from side to side in the final approach to the target, diving down 1000meters after the bomb drop, when RTB....

1 hour ago, NETSCAPE said:

I see a giant V formation of Junkers or Heinkels and it just kills it for me.

Funny thing, when you fly a bomber intercept mission in a fighter career, the bombers fly in four three aircraft V-formations, as they should.

 

5 hours ago, NETSCAPE said:

I just noticed with some other attack aircraft the wingmen do the same "zoom past flight lead" thing

Yep, this issue appeared to me already before Kuban release in the old campaign system, when flying Stuka missions, that my wingmen passed me and attacked the target on their own.

[NETSCAPE]

1 minute ago, Yogiflight said:

I agree with every word. I start every now and then a new career, hoping it might work better than the previous ones, and lose interest after a few missions, because the AI kills completely the emersion, especially in ground attack missions, with attack aircrafts circling around the target in the AAA fire, or bombers waving from side to side in the final approach to the target, diving down 1000meters after the bomb drop, when RTB....

 

I remember awhile back posting a thread something like "will career mode kill scripted campaigns?" - the answer to that question is crystal clear now my friend

 

1 minute ago, Yogiflight said:

Funny thing, when you fly a bomber intercept mission in a fighter career, the bombers fly in four three aircraft V-formations, as they should.

 

Do they perform turns and stay in formation? If the bombers start in the air and fly straight, that's super easy to do. From take off to that formation is what I now have my Stukas doing ? Turning isn't perfect, but the Staffel stays much tighter than my previous work.

[Yogiflight]

1 hour ago, NETSCAPE said:

Do they perform turns and stay in formation?

Unfortunately I really can't say, if the squadron flys turns as a complete formation, because they divide after the first bombers have been shot out of their formation. As far as I remember the most I saw so far was two of those three aircraft formations fly together after we attacked them. Which makes it pretty uncomfortable for you, as you don't know where the other bombers are, after you finished your bomber formation off. So you have to search for more prey.?

I think this would be more a question for BlackSix, he surely tested this.

EDIT: What they definitely never do is bomb a target. They fly to somewhere and RTB, that is all. But they don't immediately start to turnfight, when they are attacked, only when you isolated one bomber, so there is no fire support from other bombers, then it starts to turn, the way it should be.

Edited May 28, 2018 by Yogiflight

[Lusekofte]

4 hours ago, Yogiflight said:

wingmen passed me and attacked the target on their own.

 

In sea dragons I fly wingman in the beginning, well I am at the beginning right now , do not fly much. But anyway when reaching the target area the leader tells me to hunt on my own. I find that very peculiar. I believe the Devs are very much aware of this, and just not have a answer for you at the time being. AI behavior IS a big issue in all simulators, do not get me started on DCS , anyway, I believe they know very well the issue and I think they try to improve, to me this is pretty much a all or nothing for this sim. 

[Gambit21]

43 minutes ago, LuseKofte said:

 

In sea dragons I fly wingman in the beginning, well I am at the beginning right now , do not fly much. But anyway when reaching the target area the leader tells me to hunt on my own.

 

I do the same thing more or less.

That's Black Six being smart, because the "attack" AI behavior just cant 'be trusted from release to release.

So rather than assume that the AI flight leader is going to behave the same as he did previously when tested and working,  it's safer to just ask you to attack on your own rather than follow him...because more than likely he's doing something you didn't plan on previously.

 

 

Edited May 29, 2018 by Gambit21

[Yogiflight]

5 hours ago, LuseKofte said:

In sea dragons I fly wingman in the beginning, well I am at the beginning right now , do not fly much. But anyway when reaching the target area the leader tells me to hunt on my own.

 

5 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

That's Black Six being smart, because the "attack" AI behavior just cant 'be trusted from release to release.

So rather than assume that the AI flight leader is going to behave the same as he did previously when tested and working,  it's safer to just ask you to attack on your own rather than follow him...because more than likely he's doing something you didn't plan on previously.

I should take a look at this, maybe it is a translation issue, too. In german the flightleader tells his flight, to look around and message ground targets, no order to attack on their own. I will make a flight with my game set to english and HUD on, to see how the english HUD translation corresponds with the german radio.

[NETSCAPE]

Something to note here:

 

Area Attack Mcu = radio call "patrol for ground targets on your own"

Normal Attack MCU = radio call specifies specific target type to attack "vehicles" or "AAA" ect

 

So general vs. specific radio call for the attack is something I'm considering while building my new missions. The normal attack has to be linked to a group of enemies (like a column for example), so that might limit the type of targets involved in that attack. The area attack will include all available targets within the radius unless specific objects are set to be not engageable. - based on the AI attack priority made in Kuban I set various object within the attack radius to not be engaged... I don't like to see my flight magically engage all the AAA first and not the actual designated mission target!

 

In the past I almost exclusively use area attack. But I am finding myself using normal attack more often now. For example, to get fighters to attack the outer planes of a formation, the logical prey...or just for that specific radio call to attack vehicles or armor, rather than the general "patrol for ground targets on your own" radio call.

 

Of course there are a million different ways to do things. One fire and ice mission comes to mind where the initial attacks are an area attack. After bombing the enemy held positions in a forest the flight lead calls to attacks vehicles he has spotted at X amount distance. That specific radio call is half the reason why I used a 2nd (normal) attack. Hopefully that makes sense.

 

I am also being more selective about how I use the Force Complete command now. I have a couple instances where I feel the "let's continue with our mission" radio call really fits well. (ie circling Karpovka for like 15 minutes to get up to 4000m - lead calls "let's continue with our mission" ...and off you go to Stalingrad  . and in my past missions I feel I over used the force complete command.

[NETSCAPE]

If anyone is curious to see what I'm talking about, here is the issue reproduced in a simple Lapino test setting: Stuka Test.rar As I've already implied the issue happens in my new stuka as well as old stuka missions. When I create a test, it always works though. Even copy-pasting stuff from my "broken" missions to a new mission doesn't reproduce the issue. But after attempt number 4,879,582,183 I finally reproduced the bug and reported it. 

 

[Gambit21]

What do you think finally made the difference in being able to reproduce it?

[NETSCAPE]

5 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

What do you think finally made the difference in being able to reproduce it?

 

Nothing. It's literally 3xplanes, V formation, 1 waypoint, 1 attack mcu, 3 targets.

[Gambit21]

Yeah - that’s attack behavior in general it seems. Works fine in one mission, the next it behaves differently.