Seeing aircraft against a forest... Do they vanish in front of your eyes?

[seafireliv]

Flying in the Moscow career.  I have a pretty good set up now after my upgrade, except for the Graphic card which is a 1060, I`m sure a 1080 would be better, but not sure if it`d make a difference to the subject I`m about to write about... using TrackIr not VR, not sure the difference that would make either.

 

When flying against enemy targets, for me principally being the 109, I can follow them fine through the skies until he drops down and into the landscape where there`s forest and then puff! Gone! Vanished!

 

No matter how hard I look, he just literally vanishes. Now sometimes I can predict where he goes and luckily follow him out, but should it be this easy to lose him when I`m right there following him just because he flew above forest? Should there not be at least a glint of his windshield from the sun or he stands out a little due to,  what would be in reality, his 3D profile? Shouldn`t there just be a little light reflected off even his none glass parts so as long as you keep your eye on him he can`t just vanish without actually losing you?

 

I know they have camouflage, but it gives an advantage when not noticed, it shouldn`t make an aircraft dissapear once you`ve cottoned on to it and chase its six.

[VesseL]

This happens often. Partly its because to see the same scale in game as in real life you have to use full zoom. In full zoom its much easier to follow an enemy plane, if you keep your sight in it the whole time. Of cource the fow is very narrow then.

[Wolfram-Harms]

Flying the 109, you can easily lose an enemy, when he suddenly evades sideways, hidden by the bold canopy struts.

Then, they sometimes slam into the ground - especially in the mountains.

So I'd suggest:

make a recording of your MISSIONs, then watch the TRACK, but switch to the enemy plane, once you chase one (Ctrl+F2 should be the command, I think).

Then you can follow his moves and see what happened, when you lost him.

 

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

Do they vanish? 

 

On the monitor yes. In VR, no. 

[[N.O.G.F]_Cathal_Brugha]

Happens to me with just about any plane. I lost some attack planes I was escorting once, even though I was flying with them and knew where they were I could not see them. I kept tracking with the path we were flying and they appeared past the forest right where they should be. I couldn't believe they vanished like that, just to reappear. Using TrackIR and a 1070 graphics card BTW.

[seafireliv]

Interesting. I have sometimes noticed friendlies vanishing too sometimes. I did crashland once and a 109 flew over me and as it flew into the sky it just disappeared.

 

I wonder if it has something to do with setting the FPS at 60? Maybe I`ll just switch that off.

 

But that`s a little different from the main subject. No one`s suggestions really help and I most certainly am not buying an expensive VR just so I can see aircraft better. There must be a better, and less expensive, solution- And no, I won`t use icons.

[[N.O.G.F]_Cathal_Brugha]

@seafireliv do try turning the Target FPS setting OFF. That setting messed my graphics up at odd times until I turned it off. It didn't help my frame rate anyway. As for seeing planes over forest try to look for movement rather than the plane itself. 

[PainGod85]

2 hours ago, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

Do they vanish? 

 

On the monitor yes. In VR, no. 

 

I'm flying in VR, and my experience is diametrically opposed to yours.

[Wolfram-Harms]

2 hours ago, seafireliv said:

...a 109 flew over me and as it flew into the sky it just disappeared.

 

Did you only see that in online servers, or also in CAREERS?

 

Cause, online the AI sometimes seem to have a certain lifespan, or are limited to a certain area. The may just vanish after that.

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

1 hour ago, PainGod85 said:

 

I'm flying in VR, and my experience is diametrically opposed to yours.

That's probably because you haven't followed my VR settings guide to spotting. It's a sticky in the VR section

[seafireliv]

12 minutes ago, Wolfram-Harms said:

 

Did you only see that in online servers, or also in CAREERS?

 

Cause, online the AI sometimes seem to have a certain lifespan, or are limited to a certain area. The may just vanish after that.

 

In Career. It only happened once. It had been chasing me, causing damage and I was forced to crashland and it flew over and away and just vanished. It wasn`t far away.

[Wolfram-Harms]

Well, remember that about recording a TRACK - then you can check it later, and even post a video.

[CIA_Yankee_]

I have the same issue, I fond that turning HDR off and turning sharpen on helped.

 

But yes, sometimes things seem to merge together. Im guessing that's where good camouflage helps.

[danielprates]

In any case this is supposed to be a real life difficulty, isn't it?  A small,  less than 10ms object from far away should be something you loose sight of, against a spotty background. I always make it part of my tactics to position myself in such a way that I can keep track of the target,  or at least,  predict where it is going to emerge from when I lose it.

[seafireliv]

33 minutes ago, danielprates said:

In any case this is supposed to be a real life difficulty, isn't it?  A small,  less than 10ms object from far away should be something you loose sight of, against a spotty background. I always make it part of my tactics to position myself in such a way that I can keep track of the target,  or at least,  predict where it is going to emerge from when I lose it.

 

I read accounts that pilots could see the footprints in the snow of soldiers that have been marching.

 

I`m a great proponent of "Lose sight, lose the fight!" I hate losing sight.

 

As long as they have sight of the enemy aircraft and he hasn`t lost LOS (behind struts, it out manouevers him, he don`t turn away, it flies too far), he shouldn`t lose it. I have been staring directly at the aircraft I`m chasing several times, in a dive right behind the enemy bogey,  just totally focused and as soon as it goes into wood background- gone.

 

Aircraft should not literally vanish against the background of a wooden area.

Edited May 27, 2018 by seafireliv

[RedKestrel]

I've had this problem. But after adjusting my monitor settings to higher contrast, and putting my gamma down to 0.8 or 0.9, I found it a little easier to track aircraft against the forests.

They've never simply disappeared for me, but it is much, much harder to track them than when they are over field or steppe.

Sharpen helped me as well. So did turning landscape filter to blurred (some people say landscape filter to sharp helps them, think it depends on your monitor). There was a thread called "Stalingrad Autumn Visibility that had a lot of tips on how to adjust your settings and monitors to make contacts pop out from backgrounds a bit.

[seafireliv]

28 minutes ago, RedKestrel said:

I've had this problem. But after adjusting my monitor settings to higher contrast, and putting my gamma down to 0.8 or 0.9, I found it a little easier to track aircraft against the forests.

They've never simply disappeared for me, but it is much, much harder to track them than when they are over field or steppe.

Sharpen helped me as well. So did turning landscape filter to blurred (some people say landscape filter to sharp helps them, think it depends on your monitor). There was a thread called "Stalingrad Autumn Visibility that had a lot of tips on how to adjust your settings and monitors to make contacts pop out from backgrounds a bit.

 

Maybe I`m explaining it wrong. The aircraft don`t actually vanish when they fly against the wood background, but it`s as if they do, because they become so similar to the forest terrain below.  Anyway, i`m working on some settings and just updated my graphic drivers to the latest, maybe that will help.

Edited May 27, 2018 by seafireliv

[RedKestrel]

1 hour ago, seafireliv said:

 

Maybe I`m explaining it wrong. The aircraft don`t actually vanish when they fly against the wood background, but it`s as if they do, because they become so similar to the forest terrain below.  Anyway, i`m working on some settings and just updated my graphic drivers to the latest, maybe that will help.

Here's the thread I was talking about. Lots of tips to try in here. There's another linked thread in that thread (threadception!) that has more suggestions. I didn't follow all of them but I tried a number of variations and tested a lot in the QMB until I got something I liked.

I still find tracking aircraft against forests difficult but its not borderline impossible like before.:\
 

 

[Wolfram-Harms]

Personally, I would switch HDR off right away. It is a "modern color thingy" that makes psychedelic effects IMHO.

Don't need that, when I'm flying.

Also, I have switched "Sharp image" off - it makes the landscape so crisp, that you'd lose sight of a whole football team.

Instead, I use "Shadow quality: High" - that might help seeing objects better.

And of course: Anti-Aliasing on 4.

 

The very best help though: shoot the E/A stinking or smoking - then he makes a trace to follow!

 

 

Edited May 27, 2018 by Wolfram-Harms

[danielprates]

4 hours ago, seafireliv said:

I`m a great proponent of "Lose sight, lose the fight!" I hate losing sight.

 

Yeah me too,  but it's bound to happen,  at least beyond a farther distance. Or shouldn't it? There is a difference between an easy-to-see, sun-refleting (like a typical bare-metal US plane) at a close distance, and a camo painted plane much farther. I would imagine that loosing track must have been a thing sometimes.

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

Sharpen is the worst setting for me when it comes to visibility.  It just turns the whole landscape to digicam for me.

[PatrickAWlson]

I'm in my fifties, so everything disappears in front of my eyes.

[150GCT_Veltro]

Yes they vanish, give it up and take altitude asap or you're will be probably shoot at your six.

[Wolfram-Harms]

Yes, the "vertical egg" is the right tactic - at least for the Bf 109.
From above, I see nothing - I only hear what the leader shouts in the radio.

So I dive and while I come down lower, I begin to recognise other aircraft.

Now I must be quick: which is an enemy plane?

Identify one, dive on it, go as close as you can, and fire.

 

After that you climb back to height. Do NOT chase it around. Quit, and make a new run from above.

That way, you should 1. survive, and 2. get some of them from time to time.
The real life aces did it like that.

 

EDIT: ...here is a video with some action - on the last victim I do it wrong, and chase him And he took me longest...

 

 

 

 

Edited May 29, 2018 by Wolfram-Harms

[RedKestrel]

In game I find that, once I have visual of a plane I can follow it fairly easily over all terrain, but reaquiring after checking six or maneuvering out of plane is very difficult. A lot of time I lose them entirely. Still, I have noticed it becoming easier with practice.  Honestly I believe this is mostly due to my own shortcomings, as I find myself focusing on a small portion of the screen rather than scanning properly. 

So the solution is to fiddle with your settings to give yourself a reasonable chance of spotting aircraft, and then commence practicing a lot. Good practice is to fly a QMB with a flight of bombers far below you. You don't get attacked or hints from tracers if they're far enough away, and you can learn what to look for when spotting. It's also great to test your settings..take screenshots or videos while doing it to compare later to avoid tricking yourself into thinking something improved, when really it was your own skill!

In reality, reading books by various fighter pilots from WWII, it becomes apparent that visual contact was often lost, even when pursuing aircraft very closely. It also happened often that one found oneself after a dogfight completely alone, which was a Very Bad Thing. Pilot accounts of dogfights and furballs almost inevitably include a mention that, after everyone got back into formation, one or two pilots were missing, with no one having any clue what happened to them.
 

[Wolfram-Harms]

6 minutes ago, RedKestrel said:

...after everyone got back into formation, one or two pilots were missing, with no one having any clue what happened to them.

 

Did you ever find anything about use of flares in such cases?
Cause, when I fly with a friend, we agree on green flare for rejoining.
Wingman asks for 1 green when he thinks he is close enough to find me.
Only Leader fires them.

Might have attracted E/A in real life, so the lonely pilot should better never fire one - only the fomation leader.
I'd love to know, if they used flares then.
And also: for what else did they use them, and which colors?

 

 

[RedKestrel]

10 minutes ago, Wolfram-Harms said:

 

Did you ever find anything about use of flares in such cases?
Cause, when I fly with a friend, we agree on green flare for rejoining.
Wingman asks for 1 green when he thinks he is close enough to find me.
Only Leader fires them.

Might have attracted E/A in real life, so the lonely pilot should better never fire one - only the fomation leader.
I'd love to know, if they used flares then.
And also: for what else did they use them, and which colors?

 

 

In the memoirs I've read (most recently Ace of the Eighth - Norman Fortier, Thunderbolt! - Robert S. Johnson and One of the Few - Johnny Kent). Ace of the Eighth and Thunderbolt! both deal with American long-range escort missions with the Eighth Air Force, whereas One of the Few is from the RAF point of view on the Battle of Britain, operations over Normandy in 41-42, operations in Africa, and flying as part of the testing establishment. This is coming from the Western Front, and from what I recall, western allied radio sets were good and ubiquitous enough that for the most part flares were unnecessary for communication. 

I believe that Johnny Kent mentions the use of flares at one point for aircraft ID. (I might be getting this muddled, so take it with a grain of salt. I will try and find the exact passage later.) But basically, just after the Battle of France but before the Battle of Britain, the RAF was changing a lot of their Roundels and insignia. They were worried that captured aircraft would be used by the Germans against Britain, but not all the aircraft could be properly painted in time. They instituted a flare recognition code so that aircraft with old roundels wounldnt be attacked. Kent himself very nearly attacked a British aircraft because it had the old insignia, but held off. Finally, when he took a very definite attack run on the aircraft, it responded with the correct flare, and he broke off. The two had a big argument about it on the ground later. Once again, going from memory here, it very easily could have been some kind of flashing light or other visual signal but I believe it was flares.

On at least one occasion Johnson got separated from his flight and was pursued for several minutes by an enemy 109 and got his plane completely shot to hell (including losing all rudder control). Eventually the enemy ran out of ammo and broke off, leaving him for dead. He made his way home all the way across the channel and landed. He never mentions firing off a flare, for obvious reasons - he's just as likely to attract the enemy as a friendly.

I believe both Johnson and Fortier remark on single aircraft returning later than their companions after being separated during combat or bad weather, and don't mention using flares for rallying as far as I can recall to avoid this situation.

I believe it's Ace of the Eighth that talks about the airfield ground strafing near the end of the war, and the resulting losses. The attack was made at extreme low level, a single pass was made, and then the fighters sped away, also at low level, before regrouping outside of flak range. Only upon regrouping would they realize what their losses were. Once again, no flare mentioned for regrouping, probably because of the likelihood of summoning enemies or assisting the flak guns in finding you. 

So out of these three I can think of only the one instance of the use of flares by the RAF or the USAAF. Keep in mind this is not doctrinal documents but recollections of recollections I read awhile back. My gut feeling though is that flares weren't used much operationally, except maybe for a pilot who was going down to mark their spot. Even then the RCAF official histories talk about a pilot's squadmates marking the spot they went down in the channel by circling above it, not by using flares.

Again, big caveat, I am going from memory here. Sorry I can't be more helpful.

[Wolfram-Harms]

48 minutes ago, RedKestrel said:

...the RAF was changing a lot of their Roundels and insignia. They were worried that captured aircraft would be used by the Germans against Britain...

 

Oh dear - seems the British didn't trust the Germans even one inch. From all I read, the German Luftwaffe has never done such malicious deceit.
One good reason for that might be, that they would have feared to get shot at themselves - on returning! Mmuahahahahaaa!!!

 

Quote

...out of these three I can think of only the one instance of the use of flares by the RAF or the USAAF.
Sorry I can't be more helpful.

 

Thanks for your info; it was more than I'd expected!
I was just wondering, cause I often see many flare cartridges on German pilots - but never found anything about their use.

 

 

 

 

 

PS: Just found some info in a German military forum.
According to that, the Germans used flares for friend-foe-identification; for example when approaching own ships.

Any flare communication strictly followed daily changed codes, it seems.

 

They used them when the radio communication was damaged, or when they had orders not to use it.

In very bad weather, the pilots could signal their positions, when approaching their own airfield.

 

Crash landed or ditched pilots used them, when rescue planes were near.

The night fighters seemed to have used them a lot, but no info for what.

Maybe they fired them into bomber streams to blind the gunners? Or to make them visible? No info there.

 

The airfield ground crew used them as signals for "start" or "land", or as warnings (red flare), for example when a pilot came in without extracted landing gear.

 

 

 

Edited May 29, 2018 by Wolfram-Harms

[RedKestrel]

6 minutes ago, Wolfram-Harms said:

 

Oh dear - seems the British didn't trust the Germans even one inch. From all I read, the German Luftwaffe has never done such malicious deceit.
One good reason for that might be, that they would have feared to get shot at themselves - on returning! Mmuahahahahaaa!!!

 

 

OK This is probably OT but its funny, because on at least one occasion, flying with one of the Polish RAF squadrons, Kent talks about engaging some 109s with his flight of Hurricanes, but then losing them in the clouds. Continuing on as usual, he was suddenly startled by tracer going past his canopy and a 109 zooming up and away with a couple of his companions in pursuit. They lost the 109 again and returned to their patrol.

Once they landed, his companions told him the whole story: They had flown through the cloud, saw no sign of the 109s afterwards, and so reformed and continued on their patrol. At least five minutes later, one of Kent's squadmates looked over his shoulder at his wingman...only to realize that it was a Bf-109 holding perfectly in formation with the hurricanes. 

In his excitement he forgot his radio and engaged the 109 with guns blazing which promptly dove away and was never seen again. it didnt help that, apparently, when the Poles were excited in combat they often switched back to their native tongue on the radio, meaning Kent and other RAF officers couldn't understand a word.

All I can think of is being the 109 pilot flying through cloud, happily rejoining my companions after a brief scrap...and slowly realizing that I have accidentally joined a flight of enemy fighters. How long did the poor guy keep flying in formation, sweating bullets, afraid to make any sudden moves to give him away? Or did he only realize it when he was attacked? (a rude awakening, to be sure!). If I was this guy, when I told the story later I would call it aggressive reconnaissance for the Fatherland!

It makes me feel a little better about my (lack of) situational awareness.
 

[Wolfram-Harms]

8 minutes ago, RedKestrel said:

 it didnt help that, apparently, when the Poles were excited in combat they often switched back to their native tongue on the radio...

 

I remember some trouble with the Polish pilots in the film "Battle of Britain".

 

As for the situational awareness, I guess it was never very good for each single pilot.

There is simply too much to watch all the time.
Only as a team, they would see more, and could tell the others. Makes me admire the WW1 aviator a BIG LOT !
Imagine that without voice com!

Your commander waves to attack a lower-flying E/A, and everyone who saw the waving followed - but you might just have checked your six.

Next moment you find yourself completely alone.

Well described in the book "The Flying Fox"; one of those German books which got translated into English.
Well written - I recommend it.

 

 

Edited May 29, 2018 by Wolfram-Harms

[dburne]

I do not have this issue at all, however would note I only fly in VR.

[[N.O.G.F]_Cathal_Brugha]

4 hours ago, Wolfram-Harms said:

From all I read, the German Luftwaffe has never done such malicious deceit.

The Germans used captured B-17s with the US markings intact to attempt to infiltrate a bomber formation, seeming to be a straggler trying to join another squadron for protection, to radio attacking fighters the formations location. After it was done a few times and the Americans figured it out the orders were for any straggler not to be allowed to join a formation and to be fired upon by the other bombers if it attempted to. Not sure if the LW did anything like that with fighters though, but there are many accounts from both sides of aircraft flying in formation with the enemy being discovered or realizing their mistake.

[Wolfram-Harms]

8 hours ago, Cathal_Brugha said:

The Germans used captured B-17s with the US markings intact to attempt to infiltrate a bomber formation, seeming to be a straggler...

 

Never heard of that, Cathal. Can you give me a source? I'd like to learn more about that.

[[N.O.G.F]_Cathal_Brugha]

Flying Fortress; the illustrated biography of the B-17s and the men who flew them, by Edward Jablonski. I don't have the book with me in my truck but if you want more I can see what I can do when I (finally) get home next week.

[bzc3lk]

12 hours ago, Cathal_Brugha said:

The Germans used captured B-17s with the US markings intact to attempt to infiltrate a bomber formation, seeming to be a straggler trying to join another squadron for protection, to radio attacking fighters the formations location. After it was done a few times and the Americans figured it out the orders were for any straggler not to be allowed to join a formation and to be fired upon by the other bombers if it attempted to. Not sure if the LW did anything like that with fighters though, but there are many accounts from both sides of aircraft flying in formation with the enemy being discovered or realizing their mistake.

 I'm a bit perplexed by the statement in red, as wouldn't they already know the location of the b-17 bomber formation to organize the "fake" B-17 rendezvous, so why not send the fighters instead. Secondly wouldn't it be easier to employ their Radar system to good use. 

 

https://www.radarworld.org/germany.html

[[N.O.G.F]_Cathal_Brugha]

 

 I am not sure how much radar was used for tracking bomber formations as the Germans primarily used it for directing their AA batteries. Someone who knows more about the German AA and radar will have to say.

 

They radioed as the b-17s regularly made a direction change on the way to their target to keep the LW guessing as to the true destination. This would provide more direct feedback to fighters already in the air.

Edited May 30, 2018 by Cathal_Brugha

[seafireliv]

Interesting stuff. I heard about these German B17s, I think there`s even WW2 pics of one somewhere.

 

Well it`s winter and now, and I made a few changes, and it seems a tad better so we shall see.

[EAF19_Marsh]

Quote

Now you mention it I am not certain about that part exactly, but they did try to infiltrate for some reason  

 

Complete myth, extensively debunked. Germans used formation keepers (initially twin-engined, then single-engined when escorts started became regular). Job was to report bomber direction, strength and disposition. They had at least one airworthy captured B-17 but it was never used to 'infiltrate' US formations - total Hollywood stuff.

[Lemon]

Hi,

Take off, fly to reach enemy formation and come back to your own airfield ... all this with an enemy bomber with enemy marking in your own territory during WW2... I d be kind of nervous inside this plane, it is the less I can say !

[[N.O.G.F]_Cathal_Brugha]

Once long range fighter escort was available one of its jobs was to drive away station keepers.