P-51D and P-47D variants.

[Legioneod]

Saw this brought up in the P-38 thread and thought it would be an interesting topic of discussion.

 

What would be the ideal variant of the P-51 and P-47 D?

 

I don't know much about the P-51 but I'll state my case for the P-47.

 

Imo the ideal P-47 variant to model in-game would be the P-47D-30. It was the most produced variant of the D model and it has lots of interesting modifications that could be used. (K-14 Gyro Gunsight, Dorsal Fin, Mark 8 Gunsight, Dive Flaps)

 

If it were possible to have the dive flaps as a modification we could even get earlier variants of the P-47 like the D-28.

 

What would be your preferred variant of the P-51D or P-47D?

[PainGod85]

Ideally, the P-47D-40 and the P-51D-25, but I'm guessing they'll go for a 47D-30 and maybe a D-10/D-20 for the P-51.

 

The thing is, as late into the war as Bodenplatte portrays, everything can conceivably be modified to latest standard, regardless of how it looked factory fresh.

 

There were razorback P-51s with the fin fillet installed, for instance.

[Legioneod]

Just now, PainGod85 said:

Ideally, the P-47D-40 and the P-51D-25, but I'm guessing they'll go for a 47D-30 and maybe a D-10/D-20 for the P-51.

 

The thing is, as late into the war as Bodenplatte portrays, everything can conceivably be modified to latest standard, regardless of how it looked factory fresh.

 

There were razorback P-51s with the fin fillet installed, for instance.

 

The only major difference between the D30 and D40 is that the D-40 received the dorsal fin as standard whereas the D-30 received it as a field modification. Other than that they were basically the same.

[Field-Ops]

I would imagine the variants chosen would need to be in service starting Sep. 17th 1944 and onward. If they chose a variant introduced after that date then the career either wont be historically representative, or those planes will be locked from use until the date of whatever type they do choose becomes available. They can always choose an earlier model but add in modifications that were tacked on at later dates (like the Mk108 in the 109G6, or the 20mm guns for the Mig).

[=362nd_FS=RoflSeal]

Well for US aircraft you have the variant, e.g. P-51B and D which usually mean major changes to the aircraft, except sometimes they don't, e.g. B and C are the same aircraft, produced in different factories. In the D variant, the suffix -NA and -NT was used to denote this.

 

Then the number means the production block number, not variant. Each production block is a specific contract, usually going up in numbers of 5 after -1, so -1, -5, -10 etc except in the P-47D where it counted sequentially generally, except from the jump to D-30 to D-40, also you have the major change of switching to the Bubble canopy in D-25 onwards, rather then being lettered as a new variant *shrugs*

Also note, it is a production block, not a variant. Earlier Mustangs were refitted before it specific modifications were added to the production batch (e.g. Gyro gunsight). So a D-5 with all the refits would still be referred to as a D-5, which is identified by the serial number on the tail.

 

You also have irregularities like the P-51K being a P-51D with a different propeller. In the P-47D, the Curtiss paddle prop and Hamilton paddle prop were just given a different block number, not lettered different.

 

In summation, it is a [Edited]

 

Either way, main modifications. for the P-51D from initial production patch (i.e. D-5) would be tail extension, G-suit integration, gyro gunsight, HVAR rockets, tail radar and metal elevator with redesigned stabiliser

For a bubble canopy P-47Ds (D-25 and onwards) possible modifications include HVAR rockets, G-suits, gyro gunsight, tail extension, dive flaps.

 

Edited May 29, 2018 by Bearcat

[CountZero]

Probably they could then go for basic models to be P-47D-28 and with modifications that can make it D-30 and D-40, and for P-51D-5 with modifications that make it D-10 and D-20, so they cover whole career timeline if 3D look is not to differant betwen them.

[Legioneod]

29 minutes ago, 77.CountZero said:

Probably they could then go for basic models to be P-47D-28 and with modifications that can make it D-30 and D-40, and for P-51D-5 with modifications that make it D-10 and D-20, so they cover whole career timeline if 3D look is not to differant betwen them.

In regards the the P-47 the outward appearance is identical except for the dive flaps and dorsal fin of the D-30. If they can add clipped wings to the Spitfire then I don't see much difference when adding the dorsal fin to the D-30.

 

Cockpit wise the D-30 and D-28 are a little different but not by much.

 

Also there really inst a need for it to span the whole timeframe of the career (109 K4 for example) D-30s were in service in 44 so it fits fine imo.

[Field-Ops]

55 minutes ago, Legioneod said:

Also there really inst a need for it to span the whole timeframe of the career (109 K4 for example) D-30s were in service in 44 so it fits fine imo.

And i can guarantee you wont be able to fly it in career until it showed up with units on the front. If all your allied aircraft are late blocks then what are you going to fly in the opening months of the campaign?

[Legioneod]

29 minutes ago, Field-Ops said:

And i can guarantee you wont be able to fly it in career until it showed up with units on the front. If all your allied aircraft are late blocks then what are you going to fly in the opening months of the campaign?

Depending on when they first entered service we'll have the Spitfire, P-38, P-51, etc.

Also, D-30s were in service during 44 though I'm not sure what month they entered service.

[Poochnboo]

I don't really think it matters all that much wether an airplane version has a dorsal fin or not, does it? I really don't see them making D25, D26 D27 D28 , D30. We're getting the bubble canopied D version of the Thunderbolt. They were all pretty much the same airplane. I'm sure it's the only one we're getting. 

[Legioneod]

13 minutes ago, Poochnboo said:

I don't really think it matters all that much wether an airplane version has a dorsal fin or not, does it? I really don't see them making D25, D26 D27 D28 , D30. We're getting the bubble canopied D version of the Thunderbolt. They were all pretty much the same airplane. I'm sure it's the only one we're getting. 

That's kinda like saying all 109s are the same.

Outwardly they did indeed look nearly identical but there are a few things that differed between each block.

The dorsal fin added much needed stability to the aircraft.

 

They could technically have all these models by just adding in the modifications as an option.

 

Modifications:

P-47D-25 - no modifications

P-47D-28 - Curtis Electric Paddle Prop, Radio Compass

P-47D-30 - Curtis Prop, Radio Compass, Dive Flaps, Dorsal Fin, K14 Gyro Gunsight.

 

(The D-28 and D-25 could also have Gyro Sights depending on the timeframe)

 

Also, outwardly they may look nearly identical but inwardly they are a bit different, they function the same but the instrument layout is a little different.

Edited May 27, 2018 by Legioneod

[Gambit21]

1 minute ago, Legioneod said:

That's kinda like saying all 109s are the same.

 

On one hand yes, on the other the differences in the 109's are arguably a bit more drastic then what we see when looking at say all the bubble canopy P-47's, and certainly when talking P-51D's.

[Poochnboo]

1 minute ago, Legioneod said:

That's kinda like saying all 109s are the same.

Well no. Having been produced from about 1937 to 1945, often in very varying models. I'm saying that the BUBBLE canopied D models weren't different enough to warrant having the devs build new versions. Now... if you say you want the M model, which has been called the fastest piston engine airplane of WW2, I'd say yeah, go for it. Of course, you'd have to model all the mechanical headaches they gave the 56th Fighter Group, too.

[Legioneod]

1 minute ago, Gambit21 said:

 

On one hand yes, on the other the differences in the 109's are arguably a bit more drastic then what we see when looking at say all the bubble canopy P-47's, and certainly when talking P-51D's.

I know the changes aren't as drastic as the 109 and didn't really five any performance increase (P-47D bubble-tops used the same engine) Thats why I listed an option of modifications that would turn make each P-47 block with little change or work involved imo.

1 minute ago, Poochnboo said:

Well no. Having been produced from about 1937 to 1945, often in very varying models. I'm saying that the BUBBLE canopied D models weren't different enough to warrant having the devs build new versions. Now... if you say you want the M model, which has been called the fastest piston engine airplane of WW2, I'd say yeah, go for it. Of course, you'd have to model all the mechanical headaches they gave the 56th Fighter Group, too.

 

I'm not asking them to model every block, just the D-30. However if they did want to add the earlier blocks (D-25,D-28, etc) it would take very little effort due to the limited changes made because all it is is basically just modifications.

[sevenless]

If I can see these two gentlemen in the game I´m a happy camper:

 

 

 

[Legioneod]

23 minutes ago, sevenless said:

If I can see these two gentlemen in the game I´m a happy camper:

 

 

 

 

The Skins or the D-25? You can have those skins easily  on the D-30 since the D-30 looks identical except for the Dorsal Fin (which wasn't stock so it could always be a modification) and Dive Flaps

 

Edit: Also, Eaglestons P-47 pictured above is a D-30 it just doesn't have the dorsal fin

Edited May 28, 2018 by Legioneod

[sevenless]

7 hours ago, Legioneod said:

 

The Skins or the D-25? You can have those skins easily  on the D-30 since the D-30 looks identical except for the Dorsal Fin (which wasn't stock so it could always be a modification) and Dive Flaps

 

Edit: Also, Eaglestons P-47 pictured above is a D-30 it just doesn't have the dorsal fin

 

To be honest, I can´t argue with you guys on the D25 / D30 matter. I take it D30 was more prominent in the 9/44-4/45 timeframe and visually not much different from D25 ?

Edited May 28, 2018 by sevenless

[CountZero]

 

8 hours ago, Legioneod said:

That's kinda like saying all 109s are the same.

Outwardly they did indeed look nearly identical but there are a few things that differed between each block.

The dorsal fin added much needed stability to the aircraft.

 

They could technically have all these models by just adding in the modifications as an option.

 

Modifications:

P-47D-25 - no modifications

P-47D-28 - Curtis Electric Paddle Prop, Radio Compass

P-47D-30 - Curtis Prop, Radio Compass, Dive Flaps, Dorsal Fin, K14 Gyro Gunsight.

 

(The D-28 and D-25 could also have Gyro Sights depending on the timeframe)

 

Also, outwardly they may look nearly identical but inwardly they are a bit different, they function the same but the instrument layout is a little different.

 

Just look how they did with Spit IXe, with good selection of modifications you get 4 differant spitfires in one airplane, and same could be done to P-47 like you say with modifications, and you have more options as mission maker to use correct modification for timeline.

Just by checking crash reports in September there is planty D-28s crashing with units they plan to have in campaign over france and belgium, first D-30 i could see only in late november, didnt bather to search more. I think next airplane to come out will be either Fw190A8 or P-47 so probably not long to see what they decided to do, but what ever model they do its not problem.

Edited May 28, 2018 by 77.CountZero

[BlitzPig_EL]

Implementing the g suit would simply be a matter of having a different set of parameters for onset of blackout.  The suit allowed more G to be pulled before the pilot lost consciousness.

[JG4_Sputnik]

I know we won't get it, but the Razorback would be my favorite P-47 period 

[sevenless]

6 minutes ago, JG4_Sputnik said:

I know we won't get it, but the Razorback would be my favorite P-47 period 

 

Who knows? Maybe they decide to do a Normandy add. Time will tell.

[Rjel]

4 hours ago, Agathos_Deimon said:

What would also be nice is the convergence on the P-51D. As i know from original charts the guns on the P-51D (and other US fighters) didn't convergence in one point, but where harmonized so they created a "lethal zone" instead of one "lethal spot".

 

I've not heard that before. Everything I've read speaks of convergence being set to a certain range. I thought that was doctrine. I've only read one instance where a pilot was surprised by getting a kill firing at a rather large deflection angle due to a gun being set out of convergence. It was later found that the machine gun was out of convergence by accident. I can't remember now who the pilot was or where I read that.

[Legioneod]

8 hours ago, sevenless said:

 

To be honest, I can´t argue with you guys on the D25 / D30 matter. I take it D30 was more prominent in the 9/44-4/45 timeframe and visually not much different from D25 ?

D-30 was basically a D-28 just upgraded with dive flaps. Main reason I want the D-30 is for the dive flaps because the P-47 just dives so fast.

 

8 hours ago, 77.CountZero said:

 

 

Just look how they did with Spit IXe, with good selection of modifications you get 4 differant spitfires in one airplane, and same could be done to P-47 like you say with modifications, and you have more options as mission maker to use correct modification for timeline.

Just by checking crash reports in September there is planty D-28s crashing with units they plan to have in campaign over france and belgium, first D-30 i could see only in late november, didnt bather to search more. I think next airplane to come out will be either Fw190A8 or P-47 so probably not long to see what they decided to do, but what ever model they do its not problem.

 

This is what I hope they do but who knows. I'm just happy we are getting a P-47.

 

1 hour ago, JG4_Sputnik said:

I know we won't get it, but the Razorback would be my favorite P-47 period 

 

One day hopefully. A normandy scenario will definitely give us one or even certain Pacific scenarios.

[Notclear]

Concerning P47 a D-28 fit more with the period.

 

Even if the first D-30 were delivered in September, the units didn't used them directly.

For example the french Armée de l'air received some D-30 in September, we can find some used in unit in October, but others of this delivery appeared in the units only in December.

 

Same thing in the 9th AF, units used several finitions of P47 D, they didn't changed all theirs planes when a new models was delivered by the factories.

At the end of the war, around March,  some P47 Razorback were always inline.

 

The difference concern the dive flaps, but the big change is inside the cockpit with the instruments panel, and the position of mirror, inside for D-30, outside for models before.

 

This is to the devs to choose the more documented P47D enter the D-25 to D-30 finitions.

 

 

[Legioneod]

24 minutes ago, Notclear said:

Concerning P47 a D-28 fit more with the period.

 

Even if the first D-30 were delivered in September, the units didn't used them directly.

For example the french Armée de l'air received some D-30 in September, we can find some used in unit in October, but others of this delivery appeared in the units only in December.

 

Same thing in the 9th AF, units used several finitions of P47 D, they didn't changed all theirs planes when a new models was delivered by the factories.

At the end of the war, around March,  some P47 Razorback were always inline.

 

The difference concern the dive flaps, but the big change is inside the cockpit with the instruments panel, and the position of mirror, inside for D-30, outside for models before.

 

This is to the devs to choose the more documented P47D enter the D-25 to D-30 finitions.

 

 

 

The instrument panels weren't very different between the blocks, they were only in a different configuration and probably a little more switches for the D-30 for it's dive flaps.

P-47 fighter groups rarely (if ever) had P-47s all from the same block, it was all a mix of different blocks, fighter groups flew a mix of Razorbacks, D-25s, D-28s, and D-30s, etc. all at the same time.

Edited May 28, 2018 by Legioneod

[Poochnboo]

7 hours ago, Agathos_Deimon said:

For the P-51D a D-5/10/15 or 20 would be fine. D-25 in my opionion a little late and D-30 difinitely to late for WW2.

The D-5 was the Mustang that was released without the dorsal fin. It affected the airplane badly enough for it to be a rather rare type, because North American reactedd quickly and added the fin. Dorsal fin kits were sent out to units that had the early release of the airplane. 

 

Edited May 28, 2018 by Poochnboo

[Hoss]

I'm really looking forward to the P-47, no matter what version we get, I just hope it's not a one bullet kills the engine like it did in the old legacy IL2. I flew the hell out of it in there with the old 361st Fighter group, of which only 361st_Stanger is still active in the new IL2, he's now an AH_71st_TooLate,

 

here's my old personal skin for my Jug, as 361st_BeoWolf..............

 

Cheers

 

Hoss

 

p.s. The original Willie the Wolf in WWII was Monroe Q. Willams... he actually flew on the old Hyperlobby servers with 353rd and I talked to him quite a bit, because the M. Williams you see on the skin is my name......... Monroe was a WWII P-47 and P-51 fighter pilot he stayed in the USAF after the war.  I asked him if I could use the "Willie the Wolf" name on my P-47 and he agreed.  Here's a brief bio on him...........http://www.rcwarbirds.com/Advisors/Histroical/Monroe.htm

 

Here is Monroe's Willie the Wolf........  I remember seeing a picture of his P-47 or Mustang that had his original art work on it but I can't find it now

Edited May 28, 2018 by 19//Hoss
addendum

[Legioneod]

6 minutes ago, 19//Hoss said:

I'm really looking forward to the P-47, no matter what version we get, I just hope it's not a one bullet kills the engine like it did in the old legacy IL2. I flew the hell out of it in there with the old 361st Fighter group, of which only 361st_Stanger is still active in the new IL2, he's now an AH_71st_TooLate,

 

here's my old personal skin for my Jug, as 361st_BeoWolf..............

 

Cheers

 

Hoss

 

Nice. The engine damage model is the only real thing I worry about when it comes to the P-47, in 46 it got taken out way too easily. From all the accounts and performance test I've seen the P&W is a very robust engine and survived things that other engines couldn't.

 

Hopefully we'll see some durability with it in the current il2 damage model.

[Rjel]

3 hours ago, Poochnboo said:

The D-5 was the Mustang that was released without the dorsal fin. It affected the airplane badly enough for it to be a rather rare type, because North American reactedd quickly and added the fin. Dorsal fin kits were sent out to units that had the early release of the airplane. 

 

Really not that rare as there were 800  Dash 5NAs and 200 NTs produced. The bigger issue with the plane was its uplock on the landing gear didn't work properly and allowed the gear to open slightly in flight and during dives, which in turn caused some P-51s to shed a wing. That was corrected as quickly as the issue was figured out.

[MiloMorai]

Serials of the P-51D:

			Inglewood-built P-51Ds

44-13253/14052 		North American P-51D-5-NA Mustang 
				c/n 109-26886/27685.  800 aircraft
44-14053/14852 		North American P-51D-10-NA Mustang 
				c/n 109-27686/28485.  800 aircraft.
44-14853/15752 		North American P-51D-15-NA Mustang 
				c/n 109-28486/28885, 35536/36035.  900 aircraft
44-63160/64159 		North American P-51D-20-NA Mustang 
				c/n 122-30806/31885.  1000 aircraft
44-72027/72626 		North American P-51D-20-NA Mustang 
				c/n 122-31886/31985,38586/39085.  600 aircraft.
44-72627/74226 		North American P-51D-25-NA Mustang 
				c/n 122-39086/40085,40167/40766.  1600 aicrcraft
44-74227/75026 		North American P-51D-30-NA Mustang 
				c/n 122-40767/41566.  800 aircraft.

			Dallas-built P-51Ds

44-11153/11352		North American P-51D-5-NT Mustang
				c/n 111-29286/29485.  200 aircraft
44-12853/13252 		North American P-51D-20-NT Mustang 
				c/n 111-36136/36535.  400 aircraft
44-84390/84989 		North American P-51D-25-NT Mustang 
				c/n 124-44246/44845.  600 aircraft.
45-11343/11542 		North American P-51D-25-NT Mustang 
				c/n 124-48096/48295.  200 aircraft.
45-11543/11742 		North American P-51D-30-NT Mustang 
				c/n 124-48296/48495.  200 aircraft.

	total of 8100 P-51Ds

Serials of the P-51K:

44-11353/11552		North American P-51K-1-NT Mustang 
				c/n 111-29486/29685.  200 aircraft
44-11553/11952		North American P-51K-5-NT Mustang 
				c/n 111-29686/30085.  400 aircraft
44-11953/12552		North American P-51K-10-NT Mustang 
				c/n 111-30086/30685.  600 aircraft
44-12553/12852		North American P-51K-15-NT Mustang
				c/n 111-30686/30885, 111-36036/36135.  300 aircraft

	total of 1500 P-51Ks.

 

Serials of Republic Farmingdale-built P-47Ds:

42-7853/7957 	Republic P-47D-1-RE Thunderbolt 
42-7958/8402 	Republic P-47D-2-RE Thunderbolt 
42-8403/8702 	Republic P-47D-5-RE Thunderbolt 
42-25274/25322  Republic P-47D-20-RE Thunderbolt 
42-25323/25538  Republic P-47D-21-RE Thunderbolt 
42-25539/26388  Republic P-47D-22-RE Thunderbolt 
42-26389/26773  Republic P-47D-25-RE Thunderbolt 
42-26774/27388  Republic P-47D-27-RE Thunderbolt 
42-74615/74964  Republic P-47D-6-RE Thunderbolt 
42-74965/75214  Republic P-47D-10-RE Thunderbolt 
42-75215/75614  Republic P-47D-11-RE Thunderbolt 
42-75615/75814  Republic P-47D-15-RE Thunderbolt 
42-75865/76118  Republic P-47D-16-RE Thunderbolt 
42-76119/76364  Republic P-47D-15-RE Thunderbolt 
42-76365/76614  Republic P-47D-20-RE Thunderbolt 
44-19558/20307  Republic P-47D-28-RE Thunderbolt 
44-20308/21107  Republic P-47D-30-RE Thunderbolt 

Serials of Republic-Evansville built P-47Ds

42-27389/28188  Republic P-47D-23-RA Thunderbolt 
42-28189/28438  Republic P-47D-26-RA Thunderbolt 
42-28439/29466  Republic P-47D-28-RA Thunderbolt 
42-22250/22363  Republic P-47D-1-RA Thunderbolt 
42-22364/22563  Republic P-47D-2-RA Thunderbolt 
42-22564/22663  Republic P-47D-3-RA Thunderbolt 
42-22664/22863  Republic P-47D-4-RA Thunderbolt 
42-22864/23113  Republic P-47D-11-RA Thunderbolt 
42-23114/23142  Republic P-47D-16-RA Thunderbolt 
42-23143/23299  Republic P-47D-15-RA Thunderbolt 
43-25254/25440  Republic P-47D-20-RA Thunderbolt 
43-25441/25664  Republic P-47D-21-RA Thunderbolt 
43-25665/25753  Republic P-47D-23-RA Thunderbolt 
44-32668/33867  Republic P-47D-30-RA Thunderbolt 
44-89684/90283  Republic P-47D-30-RA Thunderbolt 
44-90284/90483  Republic P-47D-40-RA Thunderbolt 
45-49090/49554  Republic P-47D-40-RA Thunderbolt 

Serials of Curtiss-built P-47Gs: 

42-24920/24939 	Curtiss P-47G-CU Thunderbolt 
42-24940/24979  Curtiss P-47G-1-CU Thunderbolt 
42-24980/25039  Curtiss P-47G-5-CU Thunderbolt 
42-25040/25119  Curtiss P-47G-10-CU Thunderbolt 
42-25120/25273  Curtiss P-47G-15-CU Thunderbolt 

[LukeFF]

7 hours ago, Legioneod said:

The instrument panels weren't very different between the blocks, they were only in a different configuration and probably a little more switches for the D-30 for it's dive flaps.

 

I've seen the difference in instrument panels between the two blocks, and the differences are not trivial. Will try to post some pics later.

[Poochnboo]

On 5/27/2018 at 8:02 PM, sevenless said:

f I can see these two gentlemen in the game I´m a happy camper:

Oh yeah. Don't worry, you're gonna see those and lots more. The skinners are going to have a ball with the Thunderbolt. Between the 8th and 9th Air Forces there were a lot of colorful examples. The size of the P-47 lent itself well to some wild artwork. 

[LukeFF]

Instrument panel through P-47D-28:

 

 

D-30 Panel:

 

 

Concerning spin recovery in the P-47, this page offers some pretty neat insights. It's from a 1945 manual:

 

 

EDIT: and just because I like the cover so much: ?

 

Edited May 29, 2018 by LukeFF

[Legioneod]

2 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

I've seen the difference in instrument panels between the two blocks, and the differences are not trivial. Will try to post some pics later.

So have I. Sorry, I should have worded myself differently, I just meant that they are basically the same gauges and everything but in a different layout and with a few more added to the D-30 for the dive flaps and such. I never meant they were the same.

[RedKestrel]

1 hour ago, LukeFF said:

Instrument panel through P-47D-28:

 

 

D-30 Panel:

 

 

Concerning spin recovery in the P-47, this page offers some pretty neat insights. It's from a 1945 manual:

 

 

EDIT: and just because I like the cover so much: ?

 

That’s a great manual.  There’s a lot more to it than the pilots notes we often see. 

[Legioneod]

4 minutes ago, RedKestrel said:

That’s a great manual.  There’s a lot more to it than the pilots notes we often see. 

Yep, it's a good reference. I think I have a copy of it somewhere on my pc.

[LukeFF]

2 hours ago, Legioneod said:

So have I. Sorry, I should have worded myself differently, I just meant that they are basically the same gauges and everything but in a different layout and with a few more added to the D-30 for the dive flaps and such. I never meant they were the same.

 

Fair enough. 

 

2 hours ago, Legioneod said:

Yep, it's a good reference. I think I have a copy of it somewhere on my pc.

 

Yeah, I downloaded all of the P-47 documentation I could find at ww2aircraft.net a while back. Really fascinating material to read through. The Pilot's Flight Operating Instructions for Army Models P-47D-25, -26, -27, -28, -30 and -35 Airplanes is also a really informative read. That's where the instrument layout diagrams come from.

Edited May 29, 2018 by LukeFF

[RedKestrel]

8 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

Fair enough. 

 

 

Yeah, I downloaded all of the P-47 documentation I could find at ww2aircraft.net a while back. Really fascinating material to read through. The Pilot's Flight Operating Instructions for Army Models P-47D-25, -26, -27, -28, -30 and -35 Airplanes is also a really informative read. That's where the instrument layout diagrams come from.

There's a really good site I go to occasionally called Avialogs.com that has a lot of aircraft manuals and documentation. Its mostly for western aircraft, but its fairly extensive. That's where I found the P-47 manual, and a whole lot of others.

You have to pay a membership to be able to download the manuals but you can look at them for free, which is what I have done.

[Voidhunger]

Can someone please post speed data for the Mustang, Jug and Tempest vs G-14/ K-4 and Dora. I'd like to know what to expect. Thanks

[EAF19_Marsh]

Aileron against spin? That's odd, you are asking greater lift from the stalled wing...