Conflicting P-38 models

[=WH=PangolinWranglin]

On the announcement thread for Bodenplatte it lists the P-38L, but on the store page it lists the P-38J. I feel like the L would be more fitting as the J is from 1943, rather than the L being from June 44. The L was also the most produced model, but if the decision has been made then I'm probably not going to change it, I'd just like some clarification. 

Thanks. 

[BlackSix]

After a historical study, it was decided to do a late series of P-38J.

[=WH=PangolinWranglin]

Thanks for the quick reply!

[JtD]

4 minutes ago, BlackSix said:

After a historical study, it was decided to do a late series of P-38J.

 

Good news! I prefer the J over the L by a large margin, it's more appropriate for the ETO.

[Gambit21]

J better for PTO too.

[=362nd_FS=RoflSeal]

Just now I looked at BoBP pre-order page and noticed the P-38 aircraft has been changed to the J variant. Looking back at the initial announcement, it was  an L

https://il2sturmovik.com/store/battle-of-bodenplatte/

https://il2sturmovik.com/news/360/announcing-battle-bodenplatte-flying-circus-tank-c/

Perusing more, I found this

 

The Historical argument for me makes no sense.

1) the P-38 was not in the Battle of Bodenplatte, so what is this historical study refering

2) It is a collector plane, hence historically accuracy to it's specific timeframe in the main game is irrelevant. This has precedence in the FW-190A-3 in Battle of Stalingrad and P-40E1, C.202 in Battle of Moscow, none of these aircraft saw battle in the map they come.

 

Instead what we get is a literal 1943 aircraft facing late 44/45 German super props of the K-4 and D-9.

Edited May 25, 2018 by RoflSeal

[Danziger]

Well you said it yourself, it's a collector plane so it doesn't have to fit in.

[Gambit21]

With respect, how will this really affect your experience? I’d rather have a model that is plausible and maintains reasonable balance in the PTO as well.

[dburne]

Anndd  Here..we..go..

 

[Legioneod]

That's a bit disappointing, I'd rather have a P-38L but it is what it is.

Edited May 25, 2018 by Legioneod

[BlackSix]

15 minutes ago, RoflSeal said:

1) the P-38 was not in the Battle of Bodenplatte, so what is this historical study refering

Forget about operation Bodenplatte, it's only one day but we do career from Sep 17, 1944 till Mar 28, 1945.

Check plane types in these units and especially their losses by months, this information is widely available

 

401st Fighter Squadron (370th FG)

402nd Fighter Squadron (370th FG)

485st Fighter Squadron (370th FG)

428th Fighter Squadron (474th FG)

429th Fighter Squadron (474th FG)

430th Fighter Squadron (474th FG)

 

The threads about P-38 are merged

[PainGod85]

2 hours ago, BlackSix said:

After a historical study, it was decided to do a late series of P-38J.

 

How late, if I may ask? J-20? J-25?

[ShamrockOneFive]

Hrmm... That's an interesting change. I was kind of looking forward to the L series purely for the HVAR "Christmas Tree" arrangement that I don't think the late series P-38J had.

 

I also though that production for the L series was well underway and units were being assigned these aircraft in the fall of 1944.

 

Of course, if we do a late Pacific scenario the L probably fits better there right?

[=RvE=Windmills]

Anyone have a quick summary on engines and armament options on a late J, maybe compared to L?

[Gambit21]

4 minutes ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

Hrmm... That's an interesting change. I was kind of looking forward to the L series purely for the HVAR "Christmas Tree" arrangement that I don't think the late series P-38J had.

 

I also though that production for the L series was well underway and units were being assigned these aircraft in the fall of 1944.

 

Of course, if we do a late Pacific scenario the L probably fits better there right?

 

I think you meant to type J there Shammy.

[ShamrockOneFive]

1 minute ago, Gambit21 said:

 

I think you meant to type J there Shammy.

 

Right you are. It's the heatwave we just got... Making me type funny (That's my story)

[CountZero]

2 hours ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

Hrmm... That's an interesting change. I was kind of looking forward to the L series purely for the HVAR "Christmas Tree" arrangement that I don't think the late series P-38J had.

 

I also though that production for the L series was well underway and units were being assigned these aircraft in the fall of 1944.

 

Of course, if we do a late Pacific scenario the L probably fits better there right?

 

Acording to Fork-Tailed Devil: The P-38 book, many J models were retrofited with christmas tree rockets, so maybe they will be modification.

Spoiler

Also J-25 had bosted alerons and airbrakes like L modes, so they can add that also as modifications.

 

Im glad they change it to J insted L, it fits the theatre more for time line they selected

Edited May 26, 2018 by 77.CountZero
pic added

[StaB/Tomio_VR***]

3 hours ago, BlackSix said:

After a historical study, it was decided to do a late series of P-38J.

 

Moreover, can we know which model of those plane we will get :

P-38 J-?

P-47 D- ?

etc

[CountZero]

1 hour ago, Windmills said:

Anyone have a quick summary on engines and armament options on a late J, maybe compared to L?

 

From P-38 Lightning at War book

"Engine were the Allison F-15 series, V-1710-89/91 USAAF designation, normally rated at l,325hp each, l,425hp at take-off, and l,250hp at 25,000ft.
These same engines would produce more power at altitude on the J models due to redesign of the inter-cooling system." 
"The P-38J models were significantly superior to all previous Lightning. Powered with V-1710-89/91 engines of l,325hp (1,600hp war emrgency), the J had a maximum speed of 420mph at 25,OOOft and an initial climb-rate, with military load, of 3,9OOfpm which eroded les than 25 per cent through 25,OOOft. 
The J was the first Lightning with adequate cockpit heating, and with circuit breakers to cure it electrical ill.
The P-38J-10 and onward poseed flat, bulletproof windscreens and, beginning with the P-38J-25s, hydraulic aileron boot and electrically-activated dive brakes were added.
Weighing 13,7001b empty, and up to 24,000lb loaded, thee Lightnings had a normal range of 2,300miles with 1,010gal (US) of fuel. Here at last, was the Lightning for all season,and all mission."

"About the middle of the month, the first P-38L models arrived in the SW Paciftc, and while the airplanes were ftted with V1710-111/113 engines that would deliver l,600hp (war emergency) some 2,000ft higher than before, this advantage was largely offset by a 500lb increase in aircraft weight. 
The gadgeteer had got some of their 'gizmos' and 'whatchamacallits' instaled to complicate and add weight; pressurised drop tanks, and a tailmounted mini-radar to warn of attack from the rear, for example, and though the L models should not be described as inferior to the J-25s, much of their superiority was on paper."

"With two 300gal drop tank, the L model had a range of 2,600 mile at economy cruise above 10,oooft. Maximum speed were about
the same as thouse of the J-25 model, 415mph, for example, at 18,OOOft. Carrying external ordnance of 3,200lb the L had a radius of action of about 450 miles."
 

[LukeFF]

I'll raise my hand here and admit I made the goof early on in suggesting to Jason that they should model the L - as I was unaware most L models went to the Pacific. Did some more research and helped convince the guys to model a J version instead.

[ShamrockOneFive]

6 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

I'll raise my hand here and admit I made the goof early on in suggesting to Jason that they should model the L - as I was unaware most L models went to the Pacific. Did some more research and helped convince the guys to model a J version instead.

 

I didn't know that either. From the sounds of it, the J (and I'm guessing its a J-25) fits better overall and still has the features and performance that we we're hoping for in a P-38.

[Legioneod]

26 minutes ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

 

I didn't know that either. From the sounds of it, the J (and I'm guessing its a J-25) fits better overall and still has the features and performance that we we're hoping for in a P-38.

So we're still getting the boosted ailerons and dive recovery flaps? I don't really know much about the 38, gonna have to do some research.

Edited May 26, 2018 by Legioneod

[LukeFF]

38 minutes ago, Legioneod said:

So we're still getting the boosted ailerons and dive recovery flaps? I don't really know much about the 38, gonna have to do some research.

 

If it's the J-25 being modeled, yes. 

Edited May 26, 2018 by LukeFF

[DD_Arthur]

1 hour ago, LukeFF said:

 

If it's the J-25 being modeled, yes. 

 

Great news!  The P38 is the highlight of the plane set for me

[=RvE=Windmills]

9 hours ago, 77.CountZero said:

 

From P-38 Lightning at War book

"Engine were the Allison F-15 series, V-1710-89/91 USAAF designation, normally rated at l,325hp each, l,425hp at take-off, and l,250hp at 25,000ft.
These same engines would produce more power at altitude on the J models due to redesign of the inter-cooling system." 
"The P-38J models were significantly superior to all previous Lightning. Powered with V-1710-89/91 engines of l,325hp (1,600hp war emrgency), the J had a maximum speed of 420mph at 25,OOOft and an initial climb-rate, with military load, of 3,9OOfpm which eroded les than 25 per cent through 25,OOOft. 
The J was the first Lightning with adequate cockpit heating, and with circuit breakers to cure it electrical ill.
The P-38J-10 and onward poseed flat, bulletproof windscreens and, beginning with the P-38J-25s, hydraulic aileron boot and electrically-activated dive brakes were added.
Weighing 13,7001b empty, and up to 24,000lb loaded, thee Lightnings had a normal range of 2,300miles with 1,010gal (US) of fuel. Here at last, was the Lightning for all season,and all mission."

"About the middle of the month, the first P-38L models arrived in the SW Paciftc, and while the airplanes were ftted with V1710-111/113 engines that would deliver l,600hp (war emergency) some 2,000ft higher than before, this advantage was largely offset by a 500lb increase in aircraft weight. 
The gadgeteer had got some of their 'gizmos' and 'whatchamacallits' instaled to complicate and add weight; pressurised drop tanks, and a tailmounted mini-radar to warn of attack from the rear, for example, and though the L models should not be described as inferior to the J-25s, much of their superiority was on paper."

"With two 300gal drop tank, the L model had a range of 2,600 mile at economy cruise above 10,oooft. Maximum speed were about
the same as thouse of the J-25 model, 415mph, for example, at 18,OOOft. Carrying external ordnance of 3,200lb the L had a radius of action of about 450 miles."
 

 

Cool, it tends to be strangely difficult to find reliable info on US aircraft (sub)variants. So we have marginally weaker engines at ground level, 1425 vs 1475, but equal at emergency full altitude (1600). Though off set by the notably lighter weight of the J. Still likely retains the boosted ailerons/dive flaps if we get a late model.

 

For ground attack, we're lacking the rocket racks. Any difference in bomb capacity? Still has the 6 pylons I believe?

 

 

[Luger1969]

Fingers crossed for J 25 model. I had to read up. For me i want to see how the P38 would have matched in western front.

Edited May 26, 2018 by Luger1969

[CountZero]

41 minutes ago, Windmills said:

 

Cool, it tends to be strangely difficult to find reliable info on US aircraft (sub)variants. So we have marginally weaker engines at ground level, 1425 vs 1475, but equal at emergency full altitude (1600). Though off set by the notably lighter weight of the J. Still likely retains the boosted ailerons/dive flaps if we get a late model.

 

For ground attack, we're lacking the rocket racks. Any difference in bomb capacity? Still has the 6 pylons I believe?

 

 

 

Anything that L could carry J could also from 250lbs to 2000lbs bombs, so no loss there in modifications.

Also from what i see you can have 4,5 bazooka rockets and 5in HVAR rockets also as they were retrofited on J, so no loss there in modification options.

Only twing .50 cal gunpods were tested on L models from what i see, but even that they can add as modification if they wont, just look at same type of rear modifications we have on some airplanes in game already.

So how i see it there is no real loss in loudouts options they can go for by doing J insted L. 

[PainGod85]

But does the J also get the experimental 8 MG nose?

[CountZero]

if we have 20mm gunpods on Mc202 i dont se reason why they cant do it if they wont

[Legioneod]

 

19 hours ago, 64sTomio_VR said:

 

Moreover, can we know which model of those plane we will get :

P-38 J-?

P-47 D- ?

etc

 

This is something I'm very interested in as well.

The P-47 D-30 was the most produced D variant so I'm hoping for the D-30. You'd get everything you could possible want in a P-47, (dive flaps, gyro sights as a modification, dorsal filet as a field mod.

P-47 D-30 is the best option.

 

As for the P-38 I'm not sure but the J-25 makes sense because it gives people some of the things they wanted in the L (Dive flaps, boosted ailerons) and it's accurate to the timeframe.

[LukeFF]

14 hours ago, PainGod85 said:

But does the J also get the experimental 8 MG nose?

 

Dunno about that, but I do know from reading the J-25 / L manual that the MGs and the cannon were configured to fire at the same time, unlike on earlier models.

[Venturi]

Is there ever going to be a key command instituted to disable some of the guns slewed to one trigger?

 

 

[Ehret]

27 minutes ago, Venturi said:

Is there ever going to be a key command instituted to disable some of the guns slewed to one trigger?

 

In the P-39-L's dashboard at the left side are switches doing just that - irl you could disable the cannon, or .30 or .50. There should be similar switches in the P-38' cockpit somewhere but the game as now does not support such functionality.

[Farky]

I just hope we get P-38J-25-LO, which was basically the same plane as P-38L-1-LO.

[PainGod85]

10 minutes ago, Farky said:

I just hope we get P-38J-25-LO, which was basically the same plane as P-38L-1-LO.

 

With the exception of the engines, the lack of a tail waring radar and a few other minor changes IIRC.

 

Oh, and the J has documentation about having been cleared for up to 70" of MAP.

[Farky]

28 minutes ago, PainGod85 said:

 

With the exception of the engines, the lack of a tail waring radar and a few other minor changes IIRC.

 

While Allison V-1710-111/-113 engines were internally different from V-1710-89/-91 (different crankshaft and carburetor), ratings were the same. In other words, you have same power with both engines. Only critical altitude was slightly different I think, some 27 000 ft vs 30 000 ft. So engines were basically the same.

Tail warning radar was installed only in P-38L-5s, very few of them saw combat in ETO.

Few other minor changes? Example? If they were minor, it doesn't matter than.

 

Quote

Oh, and the J has documentation about having been cleared for up to 70" of MAP.

 

Yes, within 8th AF with use of 150 Grade fuel, P-38s were cleared for 65 inHg of MAP. And Materiel Command cleared even higher MAP. Here is a thing - Lightnings in Europe were not using 150 Grade fuel from September 1944 onwards, when last P-38 unit within 8th AF get P-51s.

[PainGod85]

1 minute ago, Farky said:

 

While Allison V-1710-111/-113 engines were internally different from V-1710-89/-91 (different crankshaft and carburetor), ratings were the same. In other words, you have same power with both engines. Only critical altitude was slightly different I think, some 27 000 ft vs 30 000 ft. So engines were basically the same.

Tail warning radar was installed only in P-38L-5s, very few of them saw combat in ETO.

Few other minor changes? Example? If they were minor, it doesn't matter than.

 

 

Yes, within 8th AF with use of 150 Grade fuel, P-38s were cleared for 65 inHg of MAP. And Materiel Command cleared even higher MAP. Here is a thing - Lightnings in Europe were not using 150 Grade fuel from September 1944 onwards, when last P-38 unit within 8th AF get P-51s.

 

Yes, engine ratings were the same, but the Allisons all had an internal supercharger stage, and the gearing for that impeller was different for the 111/113, leading to a higher critical altitude.

[Farky]

28 minutes ago, PainGod85 said:

 

Yes, engine ratings were the same, but the Allisons all had an internal supercharger stage, and the gearing for that impeller was different for the 111/113, leading to a higher critical altitude.

Sorry but no. All four models (-89, -91, -111 and -113) had the same Blower Gear Ratio (8.1:1).

[PainGod85]

Enginehistory.org gives two different gear ratios for the -111/-113. One is your 8.1:1, the other is 7.23:1.

 

The thing is, more power means either more compression in the cylinders (which isn't the case) or more air in the cylinders. It doesn't just appear out of nowhere.

 

Unless they found a way to shave off 75 hp worth of friction somewhere, more air is the answer.

 

http://www.enginehistory.org/References/ModDesig/moddesig.shtml

 

[Farky]

Official USAAF service instructions -

 

Edited May 27, 2018 by Farky