150 octane fuel for the 2nd TAF on the continent

[PainGod85]

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/150grade/trinder.html

 

 

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/150grade/100-150_Grade_Supply_23Nov44.pdf

 

 

 

 

This means the 2nd TAF definitely used 150 octane fuel on the continent - as such, the Tempest, Spit IX and whenever/if ever we get the Spit XIV should have boost pressures reflecting this.

 

The 2nd TAF also used at least one squadron then equipped with P-51s (No. 268 squadron, based at Gilze-Rijen during Bodenplatte). Considering deliveries of 150 octane commenced one day later, a pretty much rock solid case can be made for 81" MAP on the P-51.

 

In addition, there is precedent for including planes from the 8th AF: The P-38L is included with Bodenplatte.

Only F-5s were stationed during Bodenplatte and P-38s had largely been replaced by P-51s around 1945, which means these had to have come from British airfields - and that means the P-38s over Europe had to have had access to 150 octane as well.

When you start accepting entries from squadrons nominally operating from England, that means these were 8th AF planes. And THAT means the P-47s and P-51s in US service should have access to boost pressures corresponding to the use of 150 octane fuel as well.

 

We have high boost 109s and 190s on the German side as well as the 262, and so far I just can't see how the Spit IX as it is ingame right now can be objectively considered to be on par even with the 109 G-14, to say nothing about the K-4.

At this points, the decision to include 150 octane fuel for allied planes ceases to be solely an issue of historical accuracy and transcends into becoming one of balance.

High boost allied planes fought the Luftwaffe over the Netherlands. As such, the availability of 150 octane fuel should be reflected ingame without anyone having to dig up reports of 2nd TAF supply chains on the continent shipping it out from Antwerp.

[Bullets]

Thanks for posting this! Hope the devs can act upon this data! ☺️

[novicebutdeadly]

Just a thought gents,

(I am admitting from the outset that my fav plane is the 109)

The me109 G14 arrived in July 1944, so if the Spitfire that was released today is of the same vintage there isn't a clash.

Maybe post a question to the devs asking if the 25 lb will be available later (heck they have given 2 wing types and 2 engine types so it's not like they are neglecting the aircraft).

We "lufties" understand when things aren't as they should or "should" be,

but as a suggestion on this topic it's better to ask the question of the devs and wait to see what's going on.

Maybe the devs plan to release this later?


Salute

Novice

 

Edited May 25, 2018 by novicebutdeadly

[PainGod85]

5 hours ago, novicebutdeadly said:

Just a thought gents,

(I am admitting from the outset that my fav plane is the 109)

The me109 G14 arrived in July 1944, so if the Spitfire that was released today is of the same vintage there isn't a clash.

Maybe post a question to the devs asking if the 25 lb will be available later (heck they have given 2 wing types and 2 engine types so it's not like they are neglecting the aircraft).

We "lufties" understand when things aren't as they should or "should" be,

but as a suggestion on this topic it's better to ask the question of the devs and wait to see what's going on.

Maybe the devs plan to release this later?


Salute

Novice

 

 

The Spit IX ran on +18 PSI since around the middle of 1943 or even earlier. It was cleared for +25 PSI boost in March '44 or so. I can't easily fact check right now because I'm on mobile.

[MiloMorai]

7 hours ago, novicebutdeadly said:

The me109 G14 arrived in July 1944, so if the Spitfire that was released today is of the same vintage there isn't a clash.

 

Production began in July but none delivered til August.

[PainGod85]

Yep, Merlin 66 engined Spitfires started hitting the squadrons as early as March '43.

 

 

Full service approval for 150 octane fuel was granted in March 1944.

 

 

Which makes your Spitfire's boost an anachronism as far as the general capability of allied aircraft over Europe towards the end of 1944 is concerned.

[Farky]

19 hours ago, PainGod85 said:

The 2nd TAF also used at least one squadron then equipped with P-51s (No. 268 squadron, based at Gilze-Rijen during Bodenplatte). Considering deliveries of 150 octane commenced one day later, a pretty much rock solid case can be made for 81" MAP on the P-51.

 

Incorrect. No 268 squadron (the only Mustang unit within 2nd TAF) was indeed equipped with P-51s, however ALLISON powered P-51s.

 

Quote

In addition, there is precedent for including planes from the 8th AF: The P-38L is included with Bodenplatte.

Only F-5s were stationed during Bodenplatte and P-38s had largely been replaced by P-51s around 1945, which means these had to have come from British airfields - and that means the P-38s over Europe had to have had access to 150 octane as well.

When you start accepting entries from squadrons nominally operating from England, that means these were 8th AF planes.

 

Incorrect. There is no precedent, since last combat mission of 8th AF P-38s was on 28 September 1944 and fighter units stationed in UK never used model P-38L. Three P-38 fighter groups of 9th AF were stationed on continental Europe during Bodenplatte.

[Legioneod]

On 5/24/2018 at 12:04 PM, PainGod85 said:

We have high boost 109s and 190s on the German side as well as the 262, and so far I just can't see how the Spit IX as it is ingame right now can be objectively considered to be on par even with the 109 G-14, to say nothing about the K-4.

At this points, the decision to include 150 octane fuel for allied planes ceases to be solely an issue of historical accuracy and transcends into becoming one of balance.

High boost allied planes fought the Luftwaffe over the Netherlands. As such, the availability of 150 octane fuel should be reflected ingame without anyone having to dig up reports of 2nd TAF supply chains on the continent shipping it out from Antwerp.

 

Agreed, we definitely should have the higher boost ratings representing the use of 150 fuel. British and US aircraft operated with it at this time so there's really no reason not to have it represented in-game.

 

[MiloMorai]

That 500 tons of 150 fuel is 5,812,625 ltr. (500t x 7.3brl x 35 gal x 4,55)

 

Yet there are those that want 1.98ata because there was 200,00ltr of C3 in Bavaria.

[Legioneod]

1 hour ago, MiloMorai said:

That 500 tons of 150 fuel is 5,812,625 ltr. (500t x 7.3brl x 35 gal x 4,55)

 

Yet there are those that want 1.98ata because there was 200,00ltr of C3 in Bavaria.

They can get whatever they had historically for all I care, as long as I get my 70" on the Jug since it had it historically.

[MiloMorai]

You miss the point Legioneod. These same people argue against 150PN fuel and have done so for almost 2 decades.

[Legioneod]

1 minute ago, MiloMorai said:

You miss the point Legioneod. These same people argue against 150PN fuel and have done so for almost 2 decades.

I got your point I was just saying. It would just be nice if we could agree on representing these things historically despite the advantage it might give to one side or another. I'd be fine with not having it if there was evidence that it wasn't used, but the fact is it was used so we should definitely have it for all allied aircraft just as the Germans should get what they used.

[MiloMorai]

Good, then there should be a 25lb boost Spitfire XIV even tho it was only a 'penny packet' number just like a certain German a/c being lobbied for.

 

High boost P-47s were not 'penny packet' numbers.

[Sgt_Joch]

As I recall, the issue was not whether 150 octane fuel was available, but how common was its use in 2nd Taf in sept. 44-march 45. It seems most squadrons continued to use 130 fuel.

 

it would be nice to have as an option, but considering they also modeled the G-14 with a conservative 1.70 max boost instead of the theoretical 1.98, I have no problems with +18 lbs.

[MiloMorai]

16 minutes ago, Sgt_Joch said:

the theoretical 1.98

 

No real proof has been posted. If 'penny packet' numbers of an a/c did 'x' then where is the line drawn?

 

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/150grade/Consumption_150_Grade_fuel_Barrels.html

 

28,070 tons (7,171,885 Imp gal) had to be consumed somehow by 2TAF.

[Farky]

14 hours ago, Legioneod said:

They can get whatever they had historically for all I care, as long as I get my 70" on the Jug since it had it historically.

 

P-47D were using 67 inHg with 150 Grade fuel, not 70 inHg.

[Legioneod]

2 minutes ago, Farky said:

 

P-47D were using 67 inHg with 150 Grade fuel, not 70 inHg.

P-47s were cleared for 70" with 150 grade fuel in June-July of 1944.

Edited May 31, 2018 by Legioneod

[Farky]

2 minutes ago, Legioneod said:

P-47s were cleared for 70" with 150 grade fuel in June-July of 1944.

And yet they were cleared by 8th AF (sole user of 150 Grade fuel) only for 67 inHg, never for 70 inHg.

[Legioneod]

Just now, Farky said:

And yet they were cleared by 8th AF (sole user of 150 Grade fuel) only for 67 inHg, never for 70 inHg.

First hand accounts and documents say otherwise.

[FTC_Riksen]

5 hours ago, MiloMorai said:

 

No real proof has been posted. If 'penny packet' numbers of an a/c did 'x' then where is the line drawn?

 

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/150grade/Consumption_150_Grade_fuel_Barrels.html

 

28,070 tons (7,171,885 Imp gal) had to be consumed somehow by 2TAF.

 

Proof that some K4 operated with a 1.98ata has already been posted in another thread. Why keep your agenda? Just relax and enjoy the game. The devs will decide what to include or not anyways ...if you have a problem with a specific individual take it privately but please quit posting the same crap everywhere. Its getting old.

[MiloMorai]

Operational testing but not cleared for widespread use. The Germans did a lot of operational testing. When finally cleared no real proof that it was actually used and if so only in 'penny packet' numbers.

 

 

[=362nd_FS=RoflSeal]

23 hours ago, Sgt_Joch said:

As I recall, the issue was not whether 150 octane fuel was available, but how common was its use in 2nd Taf in sept. 44-march 45. It seems most squadrons continued to use 130 fuel.

 

it would be nice to have as an option, but considering they also modeled the G-14 with a conservative 1.70 max boost instead of the theoretical 1.98, I have no problems with +18 lbs.

Availability is not a valid argument at this point when we had LaGGs with 37mm and Macchis with 20mm cannons, 150 Octane was used on far more aircraft then those 2 modifications.

Also DB605AM engine that G-14 has could only go up to 1.7ata. DB605DC could go up to 1.98ata. They are different engines, its like asking a Merlin 61 to do +25lbs, ain't happening.

Edited June 1, 2018 by RoflSeal

[Bullets]

Do not derail this thread with 109 talk please. ?

[VesseL]

There is data, and there is evidence, so what is the problem. I support 150 fuel.

[Sgt_Joch]

well I reviewed again the documentation provided at WW2 Aircraft Performance and what you see is that basically all squadrons in 2nd TAF operated with 130 fuel until February-March 1945 when most switched over to 150.

 

It is not too hard to figure out why since the main role of 2nd TAF was ground pounding where 150 fuel was not really required. Plus the vast majority of the air-to-air encounters were in sept. 44 -jan. 45 so by the time 150 fuel was widely available, LW fighters had pretty much disappeared.

 

It is a bit silly to think the Devs do not have this info since it is widely available and has been widely discussed on this forum.

 

There is absolutely nothing wrong with their decision not to model +25 lb boost. Again, if they decide to model it, it would be a nice option, but certainly not a must have.

 

Based on this decision, I think we can also presume that the K4 will not have the 1.98 max. boost which is even more theoretical.

[FTC_Riksen]

23 hours ago, Sgt_Joch said:

well I reviewed again the documentation provided at WW2 Aircraft Performance and what you see is that basically all squadrons in 2nd TAF operated with 130 fuel until February-March 1945 when most switched over to 150.

 

It is not too hard to figure out why since the main role of 2nd TAF was ground pounding where 150 fuel was not really required. Plus the vast majority of the air-to-air encounters were in sept. 44 -jan. 45 so by the time 150 fuel was widely available, LW fighters had pretty much disappeared.

 

It is a bit silly to think the Devs do not have this info since it is widely available and has been widely discussed on this forum.

 

There is absolutely nothing wrong with their decision not to model +25 lb boost. Again, if they decide to model it, it would be a nice option, but certainly not a must have.

 

Based on this decision, I think we can also presume that the K4 will not have the 1.98 max. boost which is even more theoretical.

 

Agreed.

[PainGod85]

23 hours ago, Sgt_Joch said:

well I reviewed again the documentation provided at WW2 Aircraft Performance and what you see is that basically all squadrons in 2nd TAF operated with 130 fuel until February-March 1945 when most switched over to 150.

 

It is not too hard to figure out why since the main role of 2nd TAF was ground pounding where 150 fuel was not really required. Plus the vast majority of the air-to-air encounters were in sept. 44 -jan. 45 so by the time 150 fuel was widely available, LW fighters had pretty much disappeared.

 

It is a bit silly to think the Devs do not have this info since it is widely available and has been widely discussed on this forum.

 

There is absolutely nothing wrong with their decision not to model +25 lb boost. Again, if they decide to model it, it would be a nice option, but certainly not a must have.

 

Based on this decision, I think we can also presume that the K4 will not have the 1.98 max. boost which is even more theoretical.

 

Yeah, because ground pounding in the middle of a continental invasion doesn't require any edge over any opposition that may choose to bounce you, spread out and inexperienced as it may be.

[Sgt_Joch]

so, this has been alluded to in other documents, but it seems one of the reason why the allied air forces on the continent were slow in converting to 150 octane fuel was supply difficulties. Basically, after the Allied armies broke out from Normandy in august 44, the Allies outran their supply lines and it took several months to adequately sort out. This is an exceprt from the official USAAF WW2 history that discusses it:

 

Quote

Initial stocks of aviation gasoline and oil which were landed on the continent during the first three weeks after D-day were in packaged form and could easily be transported by truck from the beaches to the near-by airfields, which were then few in number. As a result of the Communications Zone’s promise to begin bulk delivery of aviation gasoline after D plus 15, the Ninth Air Force had limited its supply of packaged gasoline. The Communications Zone was unable to fulfil its pledge, but fortunately there was no critical shortage of gasoline because the Ninth‘s rate of operations fell well below planning estimates. This was partly the result of delay in moving fighter groups to France and partly the result of the failure of the German Air Force to put in an appearance over the beachhead. On 20 June there was an estimated ten-day forward supply of aviation gasoline and oil on hand. After an inspection of POL facilities and stocks in the beachhead, Col. Rernerd F. Johnson, chief air force petroleum officer in the theater, reported on 22 June that he had found the “aviation fuel supply on the Continent. . . in excellent shape. . . in considerably better shape than any of the other Air Corps supplies.”120

Although packaged gasoline was sufficient to meet needs during June, the great expansion of operations from continental airfields, which began in July, made distribution of bulk gasoline absolutely imperative. The Communications Zone prepared one of the minor Normandy ports, Port-en-Bessin, for the receipt of bulk gasoline and erected storage facilities and loading points, and IX Engineer Command provided storage facilities on the airfields. Small collapsible storage tanks known as Mareng cells, with capacities ranging froni 750 to 3,000 gallons, were set up on airfields and served until larger facilities could be made available. When unloading of bulk aviation gasoline began at the end of June, the problem of transportation to the airfields arose. Since the Ninth did not yet have any of its bulk gasoline truck companies ashore, the combat and service units, assisted by Cornmunications Zone trucks, had to haul both bulk and packaged gasoline to the airfields. Fortunately, operations continued at a lower rate than had been estimated, and until well into July packaged gasoline and oil remained the chief source of POL supply for the Ninth, outnumbering bulk stocks by as much as five to one.121

By 23 July the supply of bulk gasoline to the airfields was under way, and all airfields except one had bulk storage space. Use of packaged gasoline was discontinued by units as soon as bulk gasoline became available, and packaged fuel, amounting to some z,ooo,ooo gallons early in August, was retained as a reserve stock. For several days in late July and again in early August, when stocks fell dangerously low because of the failure of deliveries of bulk gasoline, it became necessary to borrow from the RAF stocks. Consumption of gasoline by the Ninth Air Force in France increased steadily once operations began from continental bases but remained well below anticipations. Through D plus 19 little more than 350,000 gallons were used; during the third week in July consumption averaged 90,000 gallons per day and by early August it was 180,000 gallons.122 The pipeline and the railroads were the main answers to the problem of bulk distribution. Cherbourg became the chief POL port in July and the Conimunications Zone began construction of a pipeline from there. Pipelines carrying motor transport fuel outran the aviation gasoline pipeline, which reached St.-Lo by 22 August. From the terminus of the pipeline or loading points along its way, IX AFSC and Communications Zone trucks hauled the gasoline to forward storage points. The advance of the fighter groups was too rapid for the pipeline to keep pace, and tank trucks were not sufficient in number to keep the airfields supplied. The more advanced fields were kept supplied with packaged gasoline carried by truck and plane when it was not possible to deliver bulk gasoline. As a result of feverish work on the railroads, tank- car trains were operating to Paris by early September, but the continuing advance of the Allied armies increased still further the distance traveled by tank trucks in spite of the establishment of forward storage centers around Paris. The longest haul in mid-September was 850 miles round trip by truck.

Capacity for receipt and storage of POL at Cherbourg and Port-en- Bessin was limited, and in October the newly captured ports of Le Havre and Ostend were opened for bulk gasoline receipt. The pipeline from Cherbourg reached Chartres at the end of September and Chilons, some eighty miles east of Paris, early in 1945. This was the farthest extent of the aviation gasoline pipeline, although motor transport pipelines were extended beyond and eventually reached Thionville, from where a single line was thrust forward to the Frankfurt neighborhood. Antwerp was opened in November and construction of pipelines inland was begun immediately. By February the aviation gasoline pipeline from Antwerp had reached its farthest extent-Maastricht-and was supplying the British and American air forces in Belgium and Holland. The British constructed pipelines across the English Channel to France, first to Cherbourg during the summer and later to other ports closer to England.

Distribution of gasoline from the ports and from the pipeline terminals remained major problems throughout the war. Tank cars had to be brought from England and from the United States to increase the carrying capacity of the railroads. The IX AFSC had to organize additional bulk truck units and called regularly on the Communications Zone for supplementary carrying capacity. During the closing months of the war, when the swift advance of the Allied armies once more stretched taut the supply lines which had been carefully strung during the preceding months, truck and air transport had to bear the burden of carrying gasoline to the forward airfields. By April 1945 the POL distribution system could transport 150,000 barrels (6,300,000 U.S. gallons) of gasoline per day.

 

reading between the lines, I would guess it would unduly complicate supply distribution to have to deal with two types of fuel 130/150 instead of just one.

Edited June 15, 2018 by Sgt_Joch

[Talisman]

Never mind Joch, your article indicates that the RAF had spare stocks of fuel to hand out for use by the US forces :)

Perhaps it was spare capacity 150 Octane fuel that the RAF gave over to help out US aviators.

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

[Irgendjemand]

OP: I thnik it has been stated that there is no such thing as "Blancing" in this game.
So....

[klebor]

What are official parameters like speeds, climbs, accelerations etc. of P-51D, Spitfire LF IXe, P-38J or P-47D with this higher manifolds and 150 octane fuel?

 

I have checked and in DCS there is 67in (about 2,3 ATA) at War Emergency for Mustang and Spitfire LF Mk.IXe has +18lbs - like in Bodenplatte.

 

Is there some simulator with this extra manifolds modeled?

Edited July 4, 2018 by sereme1

[MiloMorai]

Google Spitfire Performance

[klebor]

And what about P-51D, P-38J or P-47D ?

[JtD]

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org

 

Il-2 1946 has all that modelled.

 

[Sgt_Joch]

JtD beat me to it, but for example if you look here, you can find various flight tests of P-51 variants at up to 90 inch boost.

 

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/mustangtest.html

Edited July 4, 2018 by Sgt_Joch

[MiloMorai]

3 hours ago, sereme1 said:

And what about P-51D, P-38J or P-47D ?

 

Did you even Google before you asked about those a/c? If you had you would have found what JtD posted.

[Dutch2]

maybe usefull in this 150 octane discussion

please view the whole video, because it is not only Bf109vsP51, as some  sugest.

 

Edited July 6, 2018 by Dutch2

[=EXPEND=13SchwarzeHand]

How is this helpful? He compares a P-51 D to a 109 G6 ?.

Dont get me wrong, the P 51-D is probably the best all around fighter of ww2, but comparing it to a G6 makes this a nice 4th of July Stang celebration video. He has nothing to say about the availability of 150 octane fuel except that planes were cleared for it. So apart from being funny this propaganda video is as helpful as a bucket of sand in the desert.

Edited July 5, 2018 by =EXPEND=SchwarzeDreizehn

[D3adCZE]

AFAIK by mid 1944 most german fighters had MW50 injection and G14 was much more common than G6, with G10s and K4s on the way. If I am wrong, please correct me.

Edited July 5, 2018 by CSAF-D3adCZE

[=EXPEND=13SchwarzeHand]

Yes, he even says MW50 would just complicate things way too much ?. That’s like a judge saying „let’s leave out the alibi, because this only complicated the clear verdict of guilty that I already have...“

 

Another good one is him mentioning the lacking English skills of game developers as a reason for the many misconceptions about the vast superiority of the Mustang.

Edited July 5, 2018 by =EXPEND=SchwarzeDreizehn