Red fighters Reset trim exploit

[ACG_Smokejumper]

13 hours ago, unreasonable said:

I recall that the speed at which trim wheels move was revised relatively recently: which is good IMHO, since the problem with excessively fast trim changes is that it makes it very hard to trim accurately without overshooting. So slower is in many ways better. 

 

If you take the F-4 on runway QMB, move the trim all the way nose heavy, and then time how long it takes to go maximum tail heavy, I counted approx 14 seconds. Doing the same for the Yak-1 I counted approx 7 seconds. So yes there is a significant difference: but is this wrong?  You are not comparing like with like: one is moving the whole horizontal stab, the other a  tiny little tab.

 

 

Hey I was just thinking how I could be wrong about trim speed differences. It's from observation that I jumped to a disparity conclusion. However, I did not take into consideration the actual trim wheel size. The 109 wheel looks slower because it has a larger circumference. It's probably the same it just looks different and I'm just Luftwhining.

 

Good post, I am not comparing like with like. Thanks for the polite correction.

Edited May 31, 2018 by 7./JG26_Smokejumper

[LukeFF]

While looking through some German manuals for the Ju 88 and the Ju 87, I found that they indeed had a "trim reset" button for bringing the plane out of a dive and for trimming the plane for a dive when not using airbrakes (Ju 88). So, for those planes, it was a feature, not an exploit (as some like to claim).

Edited August 5, 2018 by LukeFF

[=TBAS=Sshadow14]

Reset trim does not give instant nose up trim/...
It simply Resets the trim so if you were trimmed nose up it will give instant nose down trim (which i agree is arcade like)
Bu its hardly an exploit.


Also why are we talking about Balancing in a Sim.
Balance is not important only Historical Accuracy.
 

[III/JG2Gustav05]

[edited]

 

Rule 2,18

Edited August 6, 2018 by SYN_Haashashin

[E69_geramos109]

Yes some planes had the reset. And they got an advantage with this system. On that case is not called a exploit because they had it.

So if a plane that had not this system is using it to obtain some advantage on the game then for me is a exploit  

I know more than one player who is using it on combat and they even told that on this post so... If this thing wants to be there for arcade purposes is ok. but I think is clear that from a sim perspective that should be remove on any plane red or blue that had not that reset.

Edited August 6, 2018 by E69_geramos109

[Ehret]

What about adding a control axis for planes which had wheels, too? The P-40 has wheels for elevator and rudder, only the aileron trim is on switches. The P-39 has all trims on wheels and some others have wheels, too. Yet, only the 109 (and 202) has a control axis for trim/stabilizer...

Edited August 6, 2018 by Ehret

[FTC_Etherlight]

Goddamnit, Luke. The necromancy was totally uncalled for, some things are better left to die. ^^

[kalbuth]

Much ado for nothing.

All mentionned use of this "exploit" trim reset, I do them routinely, even though I didn't even know the trim reset existence.

Adapting trim, notably during high speed dives , is super important, I mapped it accordingly, ie where I reach it with ease. Pushing trim reset would give me zero advantage, even worse as I would end up in a probably subpar trim position.

It could be removed for all I care personally. But the whole thing, once again, is blown out of proportion for reasons I can't understand.

Would be great if someone, once, would just point up an issue/inconsistency/bug , and just that. Not accompanied with bias accusation, refered as exploit, in an attempt to divide between "good" and "bad" player/dev/behavior/whatever. Just the facts.

That would be quite refreshing.

[Caudron431]

One could  argue that on most rotaries in sim devices there is a center detent, and that this helps pilots of planes that have trim on axis (109 and 202 pilots mostly) to reset their trim without having to actually feel their aircraft or having to check the figures on their trim indicator: once they reach the center detent they can think about something else and this is perhaps also giving an unrealistic advantage especially in combat, trim will  reach neutral position automatically and this could be considered a huge time gained to concentrate on something else. This could also be viewed as "arcadish" since AFAIK there were no centering detents that you could use in that manner and then forget about while it worked without the pilot having to concentrate on it.

 

Some will say that it is very important for 109 pilots as trim in the 109 is critical, the 109 getting more and more stick heavy with speed, calling it the axis trim exploit...(pun not intended)

 

Actually when you use trim on an axis that have a center detent, you really have 3 auto trim modes : maximum positive, reset, maximum negative it is even more arcadish that what allied planes have!

 

That said i'm all for realism and all for removing this possibility. (this is actually also a radiator related topic, not only trim.)  My guess is that they allowed it to compensate the center detent advantage on rotaries. But it is just a guess.

Maybe the solution would be to forbid the use of axis for trim and cooling management, this would be far more realistic but it will not be fun or comfortable for some.

 

 

Edited August 10, 2018 by Caudron431Micha
spelling

[unreasonable]

7 hours ago, Caudron431Micha said:

Maybe the solution would be to forbid the use of axis for trim and cooling management, this would be far more realistic but it will not be fun or comfortable for some.

 

 

 

We do not all have the same HOTAS, some axes do not have centre detents (my Saitek throttle quadrant for instance), finding and fiddling with keyboard buttons is much harder than using actual aeroplane controls, especially if you have to use a combination such as Ctrl+. Many actual cooling controls are on a rotary axis - Yak, Spitfire V to name but two.  So I find the assertion that it would be much more realistic to be completely absurd.

 

Even if it were true, why not just allow people to play the game how they like?  Frankly, I am sick and tired of people telling me how I should make inputs into my own PC.

 

 

Edited August 11, 2018 by unreasonable

[Caudron431]

Hello,

 

Please note that i was talking about axis with center detent exclusively as a possible means to "exploit" the sim. I was not talking about the possibilities of other devices unlike what you say. It's clear in my post.

My post was a parody of some posts here stating that a reset trim button is the end of the world in simulators, and that its existence allowed red pilots to cheat somehow, which i find an overexagerated statement.

 

If you think that my post is absurd when i explain that you can have 3 auto-trim modes (or auto-radiator modes) with such devices, then surely you must find the original post and some comments in this topic absurd too. Why just pointing my opinion as absurd? I find that my post, as a parody aimed at the original poster and other complaining, is not more absurd.

 

In what exactly am i wrong concerning people using center detent in the context of this topic? i'm interested because i was exclusively talking about that, it's clear in my post... Tell me where i am wrong when i say that they actually could have 3 auto-trim modes or 3 auto-radiator-opening modes?

 

Is that not true that people using them could benefit advantages of the same nature than the trim set to neutral button?

 

In the fifth post in this topic you wrote:

 

"This  by the OP is just a blatant misrepresentation. What we have is a trim reset button (LCtl -T) which simply sets all trim to default position. Ie it does not trim the aircraft at all! 

 

I would be quite happy if this was not there, but to say that this "autotrims" the aircraft is nonsense,  just like the claim that level auto pilot is perfectly trimming the aircraft."

 

You seem to agree that a trim-to-neutral key is kind of unrealistic and that you would be happy if this was not there (i completely share this view! please devs get rid of this key of infamy). Well isn't it a little bit inconsistent on your part to be against this possibility and then finding my post absurd when i point a similar possibilities made possible by the use of some devices?

 

When i said it would be much more realistic  i meant that it would forbid people to use their devices in an unrealistic manner thus gaining "unfair" advantages out of it. This topic is about unfair use of trim and exploit. It's not off topic.

 

Unlike your name on these forums suggests i think that you are actually a reasonable person and this is why i ask you.

 

To answer the last line of your post: I share your point of view on this, but can't you see what happens when bitter people come around these boards and claim those that are playing the other side are cheating or exploiting the game somehow? I'm doing the same thing in a parody, and i get flak for this XD!

 

By expressing my simple and humble parodic opinion (and even if it was not parodic BTW) i never intended to make you feel sick or as if i wanted to force you enjoying this sim in another the way than the one you like.  Note that I never told you how you should do your things when you play, i would not dare doing this, so there is really no need to be mad at me, really...:)

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 11, 2018 by Caudron431Micha

[unreasonable]

1 hour ago, Caudron431Micha said:

 

My post was a parody of some posts here stating that a reset trim button is the end of the world in simulators, and that its existence allowed red pilots to cheat somehow, which i find an overexagerated statement.

 

....

 

Is there not some internet law about this?  (Yes - Poe's Law).  TBH I was not reading it as a parody, so I apologize for my misunderstanding. I agree that there is much that is worthy of parody in this forum. 

 

For the record, I personally think that people should be able to use whatever buttons, axes, external programming tools or voice activation and so on that they want.  Putting obstacles in peoples' way by, for instance, making certain trim only work with buttons, is pointless and petty, only penalizing people who are unwilling to or incapable (ie like me) of using the various programming tricks to get around these restrictions.

 

There are some things like trim reset that it would not bother me not to have in the game, simply because I do not use them: that is all that I meant about auto-trim, not that I want to deprive anyone else of this function.   I do want people to be able to enjoy the game without having their options arbitrarily limited by other peoples' preferences.  There do seem to be an awful lot of people who want to force everyone else to play just as they do, which I find regrettable and annoying.

[ACG_Smokejumper]

7 hours ago, Caudron431Micha said:

 

 

I would be quite happy if this was not there, but to say that this "autotrims" the aircraft is nonsense,  just like the claim that level auto pilot is perfectly trimming the aircraft."

 

 

 

 

I feel like you are arguing a point no one is making. The point is simple, one set of fighters has the option to hit a button and have 4 sets of hands operating at the same time while the other set of fighters do not. I use this feature to my full advantage in Cliffs of Dover and Battle of Stalingrad. Allied fighters have an artificial edge as a feature 109s and 190s lack. Disparity always causes butt hurt......

 

The rub is simple. One side has a feature which can and absolutely does give an advantage. I can trim back out of a nose heavy dive at a flick of a switch while working my throttle and prop pitch in my P40. In a 109 I have to hold the trim switch or use an axis. As there is no reset button it is the only flight control I can physically use at a time.

 

Having the ability to work more control with less physical input while an opposing player does not is an advantage. For competitive play it's always going to cause a drama. We all get this feature or no one does basically. Fixed.

 

[ZachariasX]

2 hours ago, 7./JG26_Smokejumper said:

In a 109 I have to hold the trim switch or use an axis.

Nonsense. I just maped that on the thumb wheel I usually use for prop pitch axis (that is no use in the 109) and it even has a detent for center position. I can retrim the aircraft at once and in split second without even having to take the hand of the throttle, as I had to do in the real plane.

 

This thread is hillarious.

[Guest deleted@1562]

Thumb wheel sounds like an axis to me. Or isn't it?

[Caudron431]

4 hours ago, 7./JG26_Smokejumper said:

 

I feel like you are arguing a point no one is making. The point is simple, one set of fighters has the option to hit a button and have 4 sets of hands operating at the same time while the other set of fighters do not. I use this feature to my full advantage in Cliffs of Dover and Battle of Stalingrad. Allied fighters have an artificial edge as a feature 109s and 190s lack. Disparity always causes butt hurt......

 

The rub is simple. One side has a feature which can and absolutely does give an advantage. I can trim back out of a nose heavy dive at a flick of a switch while working my throttle and prop pitch in my P40. In a 109 I have to hold the trim switch or use an axis. As there is no reset button it is the only flight control I can physically use at a time.

 

Having the ability to work more control with less physical input while an opposing player does not is an advantage. For competitive play it's always going to cause a drama. We all get this feature or no one does basically. Fixed.

 

Please note that the part you quote is the part i quoted from another member, it's not me who stated this, though it is me that underlined.

 

Not a world about the fact that the p40 and all other allied types have not the possibility to use trim on an axis, and thus can not take advantage of the 3 auto-trim modes available to all BF109 and MC202 pilots who have a rotary with center detent?

 

Disparity always causes butt hurt? For competitive play it's always going to cause a drama? We all get this feature or no one does basically?

 

Well i followed your logic  by asking (roleplaying the allied pilot frustrated to see axis pilots having such and "incredible" advantage over himself!) that no one gets trim on an axis:  if you have a rotary with center detend you have 2 auto-trim modes more than those who only have the trim-reset key option, or if you will 12 sets of hands operating while the other fighter pilots have only four? ?

 

 

 

Edited August 11, 2018 by Caudron431Micha

[Guest deleted@83466]

How about this:  They take away the "reset trim to center" for the Allied planes (something I just learned about in this thread) and they also remove the ability to map the 109 trim to an axis.  Then everyone is happy, and all is even, right? ?

[kalbuth]

19 hours ago, 7./JG26_Smokejumper said:

 

The point is simple, one set of fighters has the option to hit a button and have 4 sets of hands operating at the same time while the other set of fighters do not. I use this feature to my full advantage in Cliffs of Dover and Battle of Stalingrad. Allied fighters have an artificial edge as a feature 109s and 190s lack. Disparity always causes butt hurt......

 

The rub is simple. One side has a feature which can and absolutely does give an advantage. I can trim back out of a nose heavy dive at a flick of a switch while working my throttle and prop pitch in my P40. In a 109 I have to hold the trim switch or use an axis. As there is no reset button it is the only flight control I can physically use at a time.

 

Having the ability to work more control with less physical input while an opposing player does not is an advantage. For competitive play it's always going to cause a drama. We all get this feature or no one does basically. Fixed.

 

I'm willing to bet in 80% of the time you use it in combat, it actually hampers you more than if you did it manually.

What are the exact combat conditons in which the defaut trim positions are actually the ideal ones for your current state? Virtually none. So you end up in default positions which are still not the correct ones ( still too much nose light or nose heavy, mostly, and rudder trim probably not perfect either , but if you ask me rudder trimming during maneuvers is not needed anyway, to each his own), so you're going to need to recorrect.

But it's even worse than that : since this trim reset feature is not instant but takes the same time than manual trimming, you have to wait for the reset to finish, with zero feedback on actual state so you have to guess wether it's reset already or still moving. Your losing time and precision. I would never use this in combat, too much of a hassle for literally zero benefit. Far better that I actually precisely manage and master myself the state of my aicraft.

Would the trim reset be instant, then yes that would be an advantage and an exploit. But it's not instant. It's a discrepency in controls between several aircrafts, not even compartimented to one side only. Far from an avantageous exploit for reds.

 

So yes, it's a very simple issue. But presented in such a distorted way that it managed to divide opinions and stirred up controversy where there should have been none.

 

[E69_geramos109]

3 hours ago, kalbuth said:

I'm willing to bet in 80% of the time you use it in combat, it actually hampers you more than if you did it manually.

What are the exact combat conditons in which the defaut trim positions are actually the ideal ones for your current state? Virtually none. So you end up in default positions which are still not the correct ones ( still too much nose light or nose heavy, mostly, and rudder trim probably not perfect either , but if you ask me rudder trimming during maneuvers is not needed anyway, to each his own), so you're going to need to recorrect.

But it's even worse than that : since this trim reset feature is not instant but takes the same time than manual trimming, you have to wait for the reset to finish, with zero feedback on actual state so you have to guess wether it's reset already or still moving. Your losing time and precision. I would never use this in combat, too much of a hassle for literally zero benefit. Far better that I actually precisely manage and master myself the state of my aicraft.

Would the trim reset be instant, then yes that would be an advantage and an exploit. But it's not instant. It's a discrepency in controls between several aircrafts, not even compartimented to one side only. Far from an avantageous exploit for reds.

 

So yes, it's a very simple issue. But presented in such a distorted way that it managed to divide opinions and stirred up controversy where there should have been none.

 

Great. If there is not exploit then put the reset trim on all planes. Solved. 

 If there is a exploit then remove the reset trim button.

 

Fixed. 

 

 

[kalbuth]

indeed. I vote for the former, no pb.

[ACG_Smokejumper]

On 8/12/2018 at 6:42 AM, kalbuth said:

I'm willing to bet in 80% of the time you use it in combat, it actually hampers you more than if you did it manually.

 

 

  Hardly, looks like I figured out how to exploit what was meant to be a centre assist feature and you didn't. It's really handy for guys who trim using switches.

 

After I hit that switch I move all my individual controls to trim out to the state required at the time.. I fly on trim ALL THE TIME. Relentlessly in fact. I taught my guys for campaign in ACG when I was in 1st Staffel to bind the trim reset button and abuse the piss out of it.

 

What trim reset allows me to do is quickly set to neutral every trim axis I have which where previously at an extreme setting all at once. I then flick my individual switches (my trim is switches) to quickly have my aircraft trimmed how I want it. In Cliffs of Dover this is an essential Spitfire skill. The Spits in Cliffs are in a skid and you have shots thrown if you do not watch the skid indicator and trim out. Unlike BoX Spitfires, Cliffs Spits have to be watched for skid which fluctuates based on speed. Want to be a crack shot in a Cliffs Spit? Learn about skid.

 

Everything I used in Cliffs applies in BoX. I still have more time in Spits in Cliffs than I do in 109s. 2250 hours in Cliffs and 600ish BoX.

 

I didn't make the below video just supplied the clip. I don't know how to edit. In this footage I use the stick for for quick adjustments. The weeping banks are all on elevator trim. I am likely using trim to an inhuman degree considering the maneuvers. Which is my point about trim reset. I am on trim to maintain speed. Smooth is fast. Speed is life. You'd lose your bet.

 

 

As the feature was meant to be an assist and it certainly is an assist everyone gets it or no one gets it or it.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 14, 2018 by 7./JG26_Smokejumper

[Caudron431]

Trim on axis for all planes that had a wheel to trim or no one gets it.

 

For now MC202 and BF109 pilots have an unfair advantage even against the allied trim to neutral key: they only have to buy a rotary or a slider with center detent to have three auto-trim modes. Most of the 109 and 202 pilots use this arcadish rainbow trim exploit to get advantage in combat and it is really ruining  competition.

 

This is an unfair advantage exploited in this game by Bf109 and Mc202 pilots: this must end as soon as possible when devs have time!

 

The easiest and unbiaised way to make this fair is no trim on axis for 109 and 202, or every other aircraft that have trim on wheels get it too.

 

As a feature 109/202 rainbow-trim-auto mode was meant to be an assist and it certainly is an assist: everyone gets it or no one gets it or it. 

 

Fixed.

 

Edited August 17, 2018 by Caudron431Rafale

[Cpt_Siddy]

All you people crying about trim while i pull crazy Gees with insta pop out flaps on yak and make imposibru snapshots :^) 

[klebor]

Wow, this topic still exists. 

"No trim reset button" + "no vertical stabiliser as axis" - it would be a perfect solution. Realistic and fair at once.

[THERION]

Hi gents,

 

well, I'm not an expert meaning in historical-technical aspect. So, removing as quoted above would be historically correct?

 

If so, OK, then this features should be removed - it's YES from me.

 

If not, then please leave it as is! - That would be definitely a NO from me (actually a NOOOOOOO!)

[Caudron431]

12 minutes ago, sereme1 said:

Wow, this topic still exists. 

"" - it would be a perfect solution. Realistic and fair at once.

Exactly. This is the only sensible request one can make IMHO, everything else could be called biaised (even if actually most people really don't care about this and are happy with the game as it is) this is why i proposed it (read my posts above).

 

I would only add: No trim reset button" + "no vertical stabiliser as axis + option to have the aircraft trimmed to all neutral when the mission start and not as it is now where it is pre-trimmed.

 

 

Edited August 17, 2018 by Caudron431Rafale

[klebor]

Good call because what we have now is plane trimmed to SOME specific speed. Arbitrarly chosen more or less. It would be better to have the plane neutrally trimmed to 0°/0°/0°.

Edited August 17, 2018 by sereme1

[Caudron431]

1 hour ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

All you people crying about trim while i pull crazy Gees with insta pop out flaps on yak and make imposibru snapshots :^) 

Not at all this thread is actually very entertaining and fun, i find the spirit very good!

 

About Yak flaps i see what you mean.  Just try the flaps on the FW190 and notice how they work similarly at any speeds too, it may not look as impressive but they are similarly rainbowed, same family of devices ? you can see/do some very nasty thing (improving high speed handling, sort of auto trim really!! i did not think about that before your post so TY) with this too, definitely lots of room for exploits with the 190 flaps. 

 

+1 for flaps damage modelled on all aircraft.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 17, 2018 by Caudron431Rafale

[klebor]

26 minutes ago, -IRRE-Therion said:

Hi gents,

 

well, I'm not an expert meaning in historical-technical aspect. So, removing as quoted above would be historically correct?

 

Yes, of course, removing this option would be historically correct. TWWII planes did not have any magic button that canceled the values on the trims. You had to spin the wheel.

Edited August 17, 2018 by sereme1

[LukeFF]

3 hours ago, sereme1 said:

WWII planes did not have any magic button that canceled the values on the trims. You had to spin the wheel.

 

I already posted above how that's an incorrect notion - the Ju 87 and Ju 88 had buttons that would auto-trim the plane for certain flight conditions. 

[69th_Mobile_BBQ]

8 hours ago, sereme1 said:

WWII planes did not have any magic button that canceled the values on the trims. You had to spin the wheel.

 

 

That's o.k. With a lack of axis bindings for trim wheels in the setup menu, I have all my trim controls bound to a hat switch on my control stick...  just like a MiG-31.  After some fiddling around with vodka and an experimental time machine, it's fully accurate to say the MiG won the war.  It just wasn't the MiG-3.  

[klebor]

21 hours ago, LukeFF said:

I already posted above how that's an incorrect notion - the Ju 87 and Ju 88 had buttons that would auto-trim the plane for certain flight conditions. 

No problem to leave the button to this two planes.