Red fighters Reset trim exploit

[E69_geramos109]

3 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

You most certainly will in the Yak-7.

 

It does not happen for only one side in the game, for goodness sake. Plenty of Axis planes have this trim reset feature.

Just on the bombers where it can not be used as a exploit unless you want to combat with a he 111. 

If is in all the sides for me perfect i dont care. Just correct it and all the sides will be afected.

Edited May 23, 2018 by E69_geramos109

[LukeFF]

7 hours ago, E69_geramos109 said:

Just on the bombers

 

The Bf 110s are not bombers, last time I checked.

[E69_geramos109]

31 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

 

The Bf 110s are not bombers, last time I checked.

Ok. Correct on the 110 as well. 

[ACG_Smokejumper]

On 5/22/2018 at 5:30 AM, bies said:

 

1) Unfortunately there is a difference and, indeed, it gives you very practical advantage:

Obviously the most common situation when this is abused is flying i.e. Yak or La-5 with ~ minus 50% trim, then suddenly, after pushing one magic key setting trim to 0% and performing tight turn.

In i.e. Bf109 you can't do that, you have to rotate the wheel (hold the button, encoder etc.) like the real pilot in both - Bf-109 and Yak/La-5 was forced to do.

 

You have to exert constant pressure and you have your hand out of action in one plane when in other you have free hand. 

It is not realistic nor equal treatment.

 

 

But in Bf-109, FW-190, Mc-202 you can't reset. Why? 

 

Shortly: for me "reset button" should be removed since it is diminishing and negating a lot of hard detailed work of developers considering trim mechanisms in this new generation simulator.

 

 

 

 

/thread

 

 

I fly both sides. I have had trim reset on a pinkie switch for ages. I use it all the time and it absolutely gives you an advantage. In Cliffs of Dover all aircraft had it. I used it there too. It's an old feature and comes in handy but in a dogfight in BoX if gives RED an unfair and artificial assist. Hit the switch and watch all those wheels spin like a top.

 

It should be in the 109s and 190s. If it's isn't no one should have it. Simple and fair. In my opinion it should be yoinked.

On 5/22/2018 at 1:47 PM, LukeFF said:

 

 

 

It does not happen for only one side in the game, for goodness sake. Plenty of Axis planes have this trim reset feature.

 

So? The FIGHTERS don't. I don't see anyone complaining about our targets having trim reset.

 

While I don't think it's an exploit giving one side an assist the other fighter pilots flying blue lack is never going to sit well. I'd prefer to see it stripped off all fighters.

Edited May 24, 2018 by 7./JG26_Smokejumper

[LukeFF]

I love the logic here:

 

It's fine for "flying targets" (e.g., bombers and ground attack planes) to have trim reset, but fighters? The horror! 

 

(BTW, once again, the Bf 110 has trim reset)

 

Also, it's not "red" and "blue" - it's Allies and Axis. Leave that talk for IL2 1946.

[ACG_Smokejumper]

Dude........

 

Bombers are not competitive. The competitive people like myself are in fighters. I am a blue pilot who flies red almost all the time due to numbers stack. I abuse the piss out of trim reset while flying red fighters........ I do not have the same luxury while flying BLUE fighters. We like a level playing field except in performance. There we prefer historical accuracy.

 

We even have expressions for this sort of thing, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Trim reset for both sides fighters arsenal or no sides fighters.

 

Are you being deliberately obtuse? I feel you are by the example you give me in trying to correct the way I communicate sides. I never played 1946, I call it RED and BLUE because that is the colour they are in the map. Also the glaringly obvious RED for VVS you know because............ There are other terms I could use to describe sides along the lines of pinko and something else...... RED and BLUE will do....

 

I've not been rude to you until this post. Unnecessary back handed post. I am simply explaining the complaint as I see it and so do other paying customers. I'm not trying to pick a fight. Going forward I would prefer to have nice conversations with you.

 

 

Edited May 24, 2018 by 7./JG26_Smokejumper

[3./JG15_Kampf]

34 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

I love the logic here

According to their logic, bf109 and fw190 should also have this "trim reset". But you admitting 'trim reset' to 109 and 190 would be a deadly sin, I guess.
My opinion: there should be no reset trim on fighters

Edited May 24, 2018 by 3./JG15_Kampf

[unreasonable]

I wonder if some of the "blue" side are even aware that if they fly the 109 they can also have a trim reset? Only it is much better than a single reset button that sets the trim back to runway settings - if you assign stab trim to an axis such as a lever on a Saitek throttle quadrant you can move the lever to any part of it's range and the stab will reset to that value. It will take time for the wheel to turn - just as the trim wheels in the conventionally trimmed planes take time to get back to runway settings using trim reset. But you have one movement, then you are hands free and the computer does the rest. Only this is much better because you have the option of "resetting" to any value you want. 

 

On the 190 this does not work - because you have buttons: but you do not have trim reset either. It does not work on the Yak, although inside the cockpit the elevator trim is set by a wheel, just as in the 109. So arguably the current trim mechanics favour the 109 most of all - and the 190 least of all.  

 

I do not see all this as a huge bias or advantage to one side or other: I just see it as a mess. Trying to align the cockpit mechanics with different button presses/axis moves in different aircraft has just ended up in a position where everyone seems confused: clearly from this thread some people do not even know what options are available for their aircraft or how they actually work.  I know I am irritated when switching between aircraft of having to go through all my key settings to remember which ones I need.

 

Fact is that fiddling with a keyboard is in many ways harder than operating actual controls - I would much prefer that we had a single trim control scheme that worked for all aircraft.  Preferably with lots of options so we can choose what we want.

 

 

[Sokol1]

Quote

I‘m taking from that that you like to see HOTAS controls banned?

 

You guys are forgetting that players with Warthog, CH sticks can use their script software and do what they want with axes, trim, dual rate, freeze axis... outside of game,  so removed this gamey "reset trim" (or that AI-Autopilot for level flight) will only penalize people with simple joysticks.

 

 

 

 

[ZachariasX]

As Airbus started doing it, one flight deck for all aircraft?

 

I think it is part of the charms of a particular aircraft that they retain some mannerism in control. And it shows that some layouts in control actually hurt a planes performance due to higher workload in the cockpit.

 

In the 109 I now mapped the trim axis on the thumb rotary knob on the throttle lever that I otherwise use as prop pitch axis. In the 109 this function does not exist and the manual prop pitch are switches anyway. Like this, I can constantly and  quickly forward trim to the required setting (dive, turn, etc.).

 

[AndyJWest]

4 minutes ago, Sokol1 said:

 

You guys are forgetting that players with Warthog, CH sticks can use their script software and do what they want with axes, trim, dual rate, freeze axis... outside of game,  so removed this gamey "reset trim" (or that AI-Autopilot for level flight) will only penalize people with simple joysticks.

 

 

 

 

 

Indeed. And you don't even need a Warthog or CH stick. With the right software (and no, I'm not going to say more) you can do all sorts of fancy tricks with any joystick. 

[LukeFF]

Heck, I can reset the stabilizer trim in the Bf 109 or MC 202 with the push of a button on the VKB Gunfighter. Easy as pie, and that's with the stock programming software.

[D3adCZE]

And again we are at the problem called: Failed simulation of pilot workload.

[klebor]

2 hours ago, LukeFF said:

Heck, I can reset the stabilizer trim in the Bf 109 or MC 202 with the push of a button on the VKB Gunfighter. Easy as pie, and that's with the stock programming software.

I tried but for me "reset trim" do not work for Bf-109s, Fw-190s adn Mc-202.

Is there some other command or i'm doing something wrong?

[LLv34_Temuri]

9 minutes ago, sereme1 said:

 

Is there some other command or i'm doing something wrong?

It's this part:
 

 

3 hours ago, LukeFF said:

with the stock programming software.

 

[klebor]

3 minutes ago, LLv34_Temuri said:

with the stock programming software.

Thanks.

[Ehret]

I had found the reset not that useful because it zeroes all available tabs including the rudder. I trim to stay coordinated so this option is not for me. Besides, the reset is not changing trims any quicker than doing it "manually" - it takes the same amount time to tabs to react despite the percentage being set to 0 automatically.

[unreasonable]

9 hours ago, ZachariasX said:

As Airbus started doing it, one flight deck for all aircraft?

 

I think it is part of the charms of a particular aircraft that they retain some mannerism in control. And it shows that some layouts in control actually hurt a planes performance due to higher workload in the cockpit.

 

In the 109 I now mapped the trim axis on the thumb rotary knob on the throttle lever that I otherwise use as prop pitch axis. In the 109 this function does not exist and the manual prop pitch are switches anyway. Like this, I can constantly and  quickly forward trim to the required setting (dive, turn, etc.).

 

 

You would still have the limitations depending on what controls the plane actually had: I am not suggesting that rudder trim should work on planes that did not actually have it, for instance.  Additionally the rate at which trim (or other controls) move should be as aircraft and context specific as possible. My plea is simply that I should not have arbitrary and in some cases absurd (Spitfire radiator ? ) restrictions on which controls/keys I set to operate the cockpit controls.

 

Some aircraft use a yoke, for instance: surely no-one in their right mind would say that I cannot use a HOTAS joystick to control them. But that is what we have with some of these minor controls.

 

And as people allude to in these threads, it only affects people like me who are too lazy or stupid to get round the restrictions by using extra software. Why should I be punished in this way for being lazy and stupid? Surely that condition is punishment enough.  

[ZachariasX]

1 hour ago, unreasonable said:

My plea is simply that I should not have arbitrary and in some cases absurd (Spitfire radiator ? ) restrictions on which controls/keys I set to operate the cockpit controls.

The only thing I'm really missing is that levers with discrete postitons (Spitfire rad, mxture on various planes, ...) should "click in their respective postition when moving the axis. Right now we can have something absurs as 45% mixture in the Spit when in fact there are just two positions to select either lean or rich *automatism*.

[unreasonable]

I cannot assign Spitfire radiator to an axis at all - I have to use 2 buttons - rather than use the Saitek lever I use for radiator in a Yak. And what is worse they have to be buttons I can remember and get at easily as you need to use them often. So not only is this just a waste of rare buttons, it is actually just plain wrong: the real Spit radiator control is a rotating stick: I have a rotating stick in my HOTAS: but I am not allowed to use it. Pure nonsense.

 

But the cockpit animation does indeed click into a a series of discrete positions. No reason it could not do that if driven by a HOTAS axis.

[LukeFF]

33 minutes ago, ZachariasX said:

The only thing I'm really missing is that levers with discrete postitons (Spitfire rad, mxture on various planes, ...) should "click in their respective postition when moving the axis. Right now we can have something absurs as 45% mixture in the Spit when in fact there are just two positions to select either lean or rich *automatism*.

 

And, in fact, that capability already exits in Rise of Flight's Nieuport 28 - the throttle has several fixed positions that are automatically engaged as the player moves the throttle axis up and down. Why that feature wasn't carried over to BOS is beyond me.

[RedKestrel]

So we've established that a)resetting trims is not instantaneous and can't possibly give an instantaneous turn advantage in excess of manually adjusting the trim, and b) it affects all planes with conventional trim, not just allied planes. Yet another thread where allegations of bias and nefarious multiplayer exploits turn out to be nothing. 

I'll get the lights, unless we want to turn this into a lever detente thread, which I am 100% here for.

[ZachariasX]

39 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

 

And, in fact, that capability already exits in Rise of Flight's Nieuport 28 - the throttle has several fixed positions that are automatically engaged as the player moves the throttle axis up and down. Why that feature wasn't carried over to BOS is beyond me.

Yes, I‘ve seen that. This is why I wondered about it as well. It would also be more informative to have technochat say „full rich“ / „rich“ / „lean“ / „cut-off“ instead of 0% / 33% / 66% / 100%.

 

Anyway, BoBp day, back to the sim. :)

[3./JG15_Kampf]

1 hour ago, RedKestrel said:

a)resetting trims is not instantaneous and can't possibly give an instantaneous turn advantage in excess of manually adjusting the trim,

If this "trim reset" button does not help, then we can exclude it because it will not be necessary for anyone?

[RedKestrel]

10 minutes ago, 3./JG15_Kampf said:

If this "trim reset" button does not help, then we can exclude it because it will not be necessary for anyone?

Well, its a convenience for some I suppose. I'm sure some people use it to reset the trims to default for some reason. I never have. Trim is constantly variable based on airspeed, altitude, engine settings, etc. so why bother returning it to a default setting? You need to trim for what your plane is doing now.

I couldn't care less if they removed it, I doubt many would notice it. I just take issue with it being described as some kind of bias/exploit when simple  knowledge of the function shows that it can't be used that way. EVERYTHING in the thread title is blatantly wrong - the trim reset is not exploitable as it does not increase performance beyond manual, and the trim reset is not limited to red fighters.

This happens constantly here, its like a cycle. Some imaginary issue is conjured up, bias/improper modeling is alleged (always bias in favour of 'red' or USSR planes), actual testing by other players reveals that the entire thing is fabricated or based on a misunderstanding, the thread continues for several days with still more people showing up to complain of dev bias and poor modeling. Finally, the thread dies and another rises in its place. I have my doubts that any of them are made in good faith, given that simple checks on how things function aren't made before running to the forums. 

I lurked on these forums for a long time to see if the game was worth buying, and constant threads like these made me question a future purchase. Now that I own the game and have played for a while, I find the experience stellar, and wonder how many people have been turned off the game reading fractally wrong thread titles like this one.

 

[ACG_Smokejumper]

1 hour ago, RedKestrel said:

Well, its a convenience for some I suppose. I'm sure some people use it to reset the trims to default for some reason. I never have. Trim is constantly variable based on airspeed, altitude, engine settings, etc. so why bother returning it to a default setting? You need to trim for what your plane is doing now.


 

 

 

I'll give you three examples I do all the time. 1st is Cliffs in a 109. I use trim reset to assist pull out of a dive or to assist a bank to help aim. 2nd is in a P40 dive bombing. I trim nose forward then hit trim reset to help get out of the dive. 3rd is during dogfights particularly in Spitfires both Cliffs and BoX. It is trimmed nose down so you are not looping around aimlessly. I hit my trim reset to assist banking hard.

 

All of this should be near impossible as I don't have that many hands.

 

It's a good feature as we don't all have endless axis to play with. I see why it's a good feature. I'd like it in 190s and 109s. If it can't be put back I'd like to see if stripped off RED even though I use it all the time.

 

Not a hill to die on though.

Edited May 24, 2018 by 7./JG26_Smokejumper

[3./JG15_Kampf]

2 hours ago, RedKestrel said:

I lurked on these forums for a long time to see if the game was worth buying, and constant threads like these made me question a future purchase. Now that I own the game and have played for a while, I find the experience stellar, and wonder how many people have been turned off the game reading fractally wrong thread titles like this one.

And how many people left the game when the fw was broken? People said it was wrong (though they did not have proof) but they were accused of whining. So someone found proof that fw 190 was really wrong. Fw190 is an example of many. Always the best feedback comes from the community is fact.
The title of this topic is not ALL right, but the only blue fighter that has trim reset is the Bf 110. And if anyone thinks trim reset is not for nothing read the post above 7./JG26_Smokeju

[Sokol1]

On 5/22/2018 at 6:24 AM, E69_geramos109 said:

Actually we have a button to autotrim (or resset trim, Ctrl+T by default). The trim of this planes operates as the 109 trim with a weel wich the pilot has to moove to trim the plane to the position is needed. 

 

How expect that someone trimming  BF 109 "stabilizer adjust" with their (spiking, low resolution axis) Saitek X-5x rotarie, e.g. full nose down and then by press a key/button "reset trim"?

 

There's no way that the rotarie in X-52x - that still send a electric value telling the game to trim full nose down spin back for neutral by yourself (like in motorized trim in some airline throttles for FSX/X-plane - that rely on output data send by game, feature not yet available in BO'x series).

 

This gamey "Reset Trim" is legacy of early flight games when cockpits are not 3D and have no indication of trim adjust.

 

BTW - Easy solution: remove ability to set "Stabilizer Adjust" in an axis.

Edited May 25, 2018 by Sokol1

[HR_Zunzun]

On 5/24/2018 at 10:25 PM, 7./JG26_Smokejumper said:

 

 

I'll give you three examples I do all the time. 1st is Cliffs in a 109. I use trim reset to assist pull out of a dive or to assist a bank to help aim. 2nd is in a P40 dive bombing. I trim nose forward then hit trim reset to help get out of the dive. 3rd is during dogfights particularly in Spitfires both Cliffs and BoX. It is trimmed nose down so you are not looping around aimlessly. I hit my trim reset to assist banking hard.

 

All of this should be near impossible as I don't have that many hands.

 

It's a good feature as we don't all have endless axis to play with. I see why it's a good feature. I'd like it in 190s and 109s. If it can't be put back I'd like to see if stripped off RED even though I use it all the time.

 

Not a hill to die on though.

 

I can trim my plane to whatever position while manoeuvring. I have never used the trim reset function. I set my trim buttons in my joystick and use them while still able to manoeuvring, shot,  move flaps etc....

On the other hand, the 109 pilot with the stabilizer set in an axis can bring it to any desired position in a split of a second by moving the axis and then forget about it. Do not think is any major advantage but if there is any then lays there (not to mention the discussion about linking the stabilizer axis to the elevator one with a on/off function).

 

[VesseL]

If you have thumb or other wheel its as easy as reset trim button in 109, but if not its like manual vs automatic control. I would like all the trims on axis, exept 190 and planes with same button system for trims. Why it is not so I dont understand. In real planes the controls are the same wheel system. Linking the stab or trim and elevator is not good. Its not any advantage to use stab and elevator in sync.?? I never use them sync manually so why I would like it forced that way. Auto reset trim is ok for me.

Edited May 26, 2018 by VesseL

[ZachariasX]

On 5/26/2018 at 9:19 PM, VesseL said:

Linking the stab or trim and elevator is not good. Its not any advantage to use stab and elevator in sync.?? 

 

It is a very, wery dumb thing to do. Trim would lag stick input badly. You would always thave to correct your stick position for a constantly creeping trim setting.

 

This worked fine for some when trim axis moved as fast as you could wind the knob.

[VesseL]

Even if the stab would be instant, it ( linking stab with elevator ) would be the same, it would not make the pilot fly or fight better. In my opinion. Never even tryed it coz it sounds so bad idea.

[Willy__]

3 hours ago, VesseL said:

Even if the stab would be instant, it ( linking stab with elevator ) would be the same, it would not make the pilot fly or fight better. In my opinion. Never even tryed it coz it sounds so bad idea.

 

Funny enough, that was the excuse that people had that made the devs change how the stabilizer works on the 109s.... ?

[ZachariasX]

2 minutes ago, Willy__ said:

 

Funny enough, that was the excuse that people had that made the devs change how the stabilizer works on the 109s.... ?

If you can trim as fast as moving the stick, it is always an advantage.

[Willy__]

1 minute ago, ZachariasX said:

If you can trim as fast as moving the stick, it is always an advantage.

 

Analogously, you can say that the trim reset do that so....

 

I'll let people connect the dots and come with their own conclusion 

[ZachariasX]

1 minute ago, Willy__ said:

 

Analogously, you can say that the trim reset do that so....

 

I'll let people connect the dots and come with their own conclusion 

The trim only resets as fast as you can wind it, much slower than when peeps would link trim with elevator controls. There is no advantage.

[Tuesday]

1 hour ago, Willy__ said:

 

Analogously, you can say that the trim reset do that so....

 

I'll let people connect the dots and come with their own conclusion 

 

Except you can't, because it moves at the same speed as if you were winding it.

[ACG_Smokejumper]

Another thing I've noticed is trim speed. The 109 wheel slowly turns while my trim wheels when I'm in a RED fighter spin like a top.

[unreasonable]

7 hours ago, 7./JG26_Smokejumper said:

Another thing I've noticed is trim speed. The 109 wheel slowly turns while my trim wheels when I'm in a RED fighter spin like a top.

I recall that the speed at which trim wheels move was revised relatively recently: which is good IMHO, since the problem with excessively fast trim changes is that it makes it very hard to trim accurately without overshooting. So slower is in many ways better. 

 

If you take the F-4 on runway QMB, move the trim all the way nose heavy, and then time how long it takes to go maximum tail heavy, I counted approx 14 seconds. Doing the same for the Yak-1 I counted approx 7 seconds. So yes there is a significant difference: but is this wrong?  You are not comparing like with like: one is moving the whole horizontal stab, the other a  tiny little tab.

[VesseL]

16 hours ago, Willy__ said:

 

Funny enough, that was the excuse that people had that made the devs change how the stabilizer works on the 109s.... ?

 

Yes it was mentioned then for one of the reason, even though noone did admit to use it. Other one was that it was too fast ( relative to real planes )to move the trims in every plane.

Yaks trim is faster now coz its less turns on the Yaks elevator trim than it is on 109 stabilizer wheel. Now the times to adjust the trims should be the same as was in real planes too. Thats how I have understood it.

 

Using stick for controll the stab,would mess the stick elevator controll, top speed, and i guess many more issues would occur, if linking them together. Even if it would be instant affect.