Yak series Dive and high speed behabeour too good?

[=EXPEND=13SchwarzeHand]

 

ok look here

 

look at the dive speed limit (750kph)

 

then look at the manual for the lagg3 the historial one it will say (600kph)

 

some 2nd grade math for you 750-600 = 150 kph

 

Let me quote Han on this

 

"10. Flutter IAS on LaGG-3 is 750 while in manual max IAS is listed as 600 km/h. It's 150 km/h reserve.

 

Actualy, we have flight test report on LaGG-3 which shows that it's diving a little more than 700 km/h IAS without problems. So, we have set Flutter start at 750km/h IAS, +50"

 

The 109 only gets 100 + the manual. NOT x + flight tests. The lagg is 150 plus manual the 109 100 + manual. If we had 50 + flight test for the 109 we would end up at around 920.

 

 

Edited February 18, 2019 by =EXPEND=SchwarzeDreizehn

[CountZero]

20 minutes ago, =EXPEND=SchwarzeDreizehn said:

 

ok look here

 

look at the dive speed limit (750kph)

 

then look at the manual for the lagg3 the historial one it will say (600kph)

 

some 2nd grade math for you 750-600 = 150 kph

 

Let me quote Han on this

 

"10. Flutter IAS on LaGG-3 is 750 while in manual max IAS is listed as 600 km/h. It's 150 km/h reserve.

 

Actualy, we have flight test report on LaGG-3 which shows that it's diving a little more than 700 km/h IAS without problems. So, we have set Flutter start at 750km/h IAS, +50"

 

The 109 only gets 100 + the manual. NOT x + flight tests. The lagg is 150 plus manual the 109 100 + manual. If we had 50 + flight test for the 109 we would end up at around 920.

 

 

like i say before and you show again lagg gets +50, and 109 +100, how can they use some x for starting number for 109 when they dont have it, only problem i see is why should lagg not get also +100 on known number like 109 gets, and have 800 limit.
109 get +100, yak gets +70 insted +100, and lagg get +50 insted +100 like 109s, if all airplanes should get some bonus it should be same for all.
Hope this gets fixed in future for vvs airplanes, and they also get +100 from known number, then we could get atleast some use from this topic.
But this is what they get when they dont use same bonus for all airplanes, ppl still complaining about yak or lagg when they didnt even get +100 like 109s lol.

[=EXPEND=13SchwarzeHand]

29 minutes ago, 77.CountZero said:

like i say before and you show again lagg gets +50, and 109 +100, how can they use some x for starting number for 109 when they dont have it, only problem i see is why should lagg not get also +100 on known number like 109 gets, and have 800 limit.
109 get +100, yak gets +70 insted +100, and lagg get +50 insted +100 like 109s, if all airplanes should get some bonus it should be same for all.
Hope this gets fixed in future for vvs airplanes, and they also get +100 from known number, then we could get atleast some use from this topic.
But this is what they get when they dont use same bonus for all airplanes, ppl still complaining about yak or lagg when they didnt even get +100 like 109s lol.

 

 

That is exactly the problem. You should

a)Either take the manual 

or b) Tests

and add the same number to it for all planes

 

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/me109/Me_109_Dive_Test.pdf

 

here is a test for you where the 109 reached 910kph. So if we add 50 we should end up at 960 right?

 

But currently its 850.

 

So where exactly is the advantage for the 109? because right now, we have a lower start number + a lower margin added to it. the margin compared to the actual tests is -60kph

 

This is because for the 109 we use the manual number and for the lagg some test...

 

-60 + 50 makes a whopping difference of 110kph between the lagg and the 109 in limits solely based on dev discretion (due to using non standard bases and margins) where is that fair?

Edited February 18, 2019 by =EXPEND=SchwarzeDreizehn

[CountZero]

23 minutes ago, =EXPEND=SchwarzeDreizehn said:

 

 

That is exactly the problem. You should

a)Either take the manual 

or b) Tests

and add the same number to it for all planes

 

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/me109/Me_109_Dive_Test.pdf

 

here is a test for you where the 109 reached 910kph. So if we add 50 we should end up at 960 right?

 

But currently its 850.

 

So where exactly is the advantage for the 109? because right now, we have a lower start number + a lower margin added to it. the margin compared to the actual tests is -60kph

 

This is because for the 109 we use the manual number and for the lagg some test...

 

-60 + 50 makes a whopping difference of 110kph between the lagg and the 109 in limits solely based on dev discretion (due to using non standard bases and margins) where is that fair?

and 109s in game can do 900kmh in dive with no problems, so they modeled them corectly, i just dive and did 910 tas on 5km and that doc u post says 906 at 5.8, so all is ok for 109s, and it seams only vvs get lover numbers

[=EXPEND=13SchwarzeHand]

Ok, nevermind. You make no sense at all

Edited February 19, 2019 by =EXPEND=SchwarzeDreizehn

[69th_Mobile_BBQ]

I agree that the Yak pitch trim should be on an axis simply because a wheel and pulleys is, for all intents and purposes, an analog system. 

I also believe that the ability to bind the pitch trim axis to the joystick pitch axis, effectively doubling the pitch response, needs to be eliminated.

Sure, if you set your bindings that way, you will have to constantly push the 109's nose down to stay trimmed for speed but, you can pull near-blackout turns and loops that are impossibly quick. As long as you complete the turn fast enough and get back to a lower G state quickly, you'll never blackout and lose control. 

Some might say that having to constantly push the stick forward to stay level is too inconvenient, but it's not like you have to bench press, and hold, (I estimate) 50 lbs. for the entire flight like you would if you did this in real life. 

I even recall some MP veterans in Il-2 '46 saying they didn't trim their planes and preferred to just 'push down' to stay level in order to get better elevator use in tight turns. This was LONG before BoS series was even released. Now there's not only better pitch response, there's BOOSTED pitch response using this axis binding configuration. 

 

I can only guess that real pilots always trimmed their planes properly, and if they did release the trim to neutral in combat, it was purely based on whether or not they thought to do it in the heat of the moment.

 

As far as plane performance in-game goes, I'm all for accuracy.  Keep in mind that there are attributes of all planes that can't be quantifiable and some manuals are very conservative about "do not exceed" limits.  Some models in-game break easily when the set manual limits are reached, but in real life, with real pilot reports, far exceeded the manual's specifications (here's looking at you P40 motor).  Then again, sometimes the parts would break exactly when the manual said they would while other planes of the same model took all the punishment and asked for more.  I'm not sure how that is supposed to be quantified in a simulation but, I don't think that many people would want it to be left to RNG. 

Edited February 18, 2019 by =AVG77=Mobile_BBQ

[3./JG15_Kampf]

23 hours ago, 77.CountZero said:

only problem i see is why should lagg not get also +100 on known number like 109 gets, and have 800 limit.

Why do you think airplanes with different diving limits should receive the same extrapolations (100)? Should not the increase be proportional to the critical speed of each plane?

The greater the extrapolation of the critical speed of diving, the greater the disadvantages for the German planes (it needs to dive too much to be able to reach the critical speed of a VVS plane)

Edited February 19, 2019 by 3./JG15_Kampf

[-250H-Ursus_]

Made another trials. This time i made it with Bf-109F4 G4 G6 G14 K4 and Fw-190A3 A5, also included all Yakovlev's, Lavokchin's, and MiG-3

 

Trials with Lavokchin fighters

 

LaGG-3

 

Plane starts to freeze at 650.

Flutters starts at 700

Plane lost surfaces at 750 or above

Trim 100  is required to recover the dive after 650KPH

Energy retention after dive: If you don't reduce RPM the drag will reduce your speed very fast, even if you do that, speed will fall fast until reach 510

 

Trials with La-5

 

Plane starts to freeze at 650

Flutters at 700

Plane lost controls surfaces at 730

Trim 100 its required to recover the dive after 680KPH, not guaranteed a succes on that work.

Engine will overrev on dive

Energy retention: Speed falls to 580, then will fall slow

 

Trials with La-5FN

 

Plane starts to freeze at 660

Flutters at 700

Lost control surfaces at 750

Trim 100 its required to recover a dive above the 710

Engine overrevs

Energy retention: Speed on low alts its stable on 600KPH, on hight alts no.

 

 

Conclusion: LaGG-3 its more durable and can escape from a letal dive.

 

Trials with Yakovlev fighters:

*Yak-1Series69 excluded, see DerSheriff video*

 

Trials with Yak-1B

 

Plane starts to freeze at 650

Fluttering starts at 700

Plane lost surfaces at 730 or above

Trim 100 is required to recover the dive after 680KPH

Energy retention after dive: Reduce RPM or drag will reduce your speed, on 2500 rpm speed falls very quickly to 590, then speed will fall at mid-speed to 542 and will be stable 

 

Trials with Yak-7B

 

Plane starts to freeze at 700

Flutters at 730

Plane lost surfaces at 760

Trim isn't required

Energy retention: Speed falls very fast, you must open radiator or engine blows up.

 

Conclusion with Yak planes:

Yak-7B its the only plane with problems.

 

Trials with MiG-3

 

Plane totally freezes at 650, TRIM 100 ITS NEEDED 

Flutters at 730

Plane lost surfaces at 750

Energy retention: MiG-3 its quite good on this, 530 and stable on 5000mts (Full thortle, mixture and RPM)

 

 

Trials with Germany

 

Bf-109F4

Plane starts to freeze at 700, trim its needed to recover with no effort to pilot

Fluttering at 860

Lost of surfaces 900+ (No reached the break point)

Energy retention: Keeps for a very very long time 700+ at 1.37 ata

 

Bf-109G4

 

Plane starts to freeze at 700, trim its neede to recover, again, no effort to pilot.

No fluttering, even at 850.

Lost of surfaces, possibly 900+

Energy retention: Keeps for a short time 800 at 1.37 ata, then speed falls slowly.

 

Bf-109G6

 

Results: Equal to G4, but better on energy retention.

 

Bf-109G14

 

Results: Same on dive limits and recovery,  Better than G-4 and G-6 on retention, MW50 helps a lot.

 

Bf-109K4

Results: Better dive limits, reached 900, keeped 800 for a decent time on 1.98

 

 

Trials with Fw-190A3 and A5

 

Plane freeze after pass 700

Trim is needed, but not at 100

No fluttering detected

Energy retention: 700+ both cases.

 

If you do with Russians planes the things that say the manual you are fine.

If you don't its at your own risk. Most people who follows germans on dives crashes his planes or results damaged on dive. Personally, i never follow germans on long dives, only in short dives when is possible

 

 

[72AG_terror]

On 2/14/2019 at 2:33 AM, E69_geramos109 said:

... I can not tell you how much is to pull the stick but when the manual says dont pull sharp moovements at 600 kph I can see on the game yaks doing just that to dodge shots like an UFO or you just can pull suddenly the stick to black out before the stall appears so for me is clear that something is wrong. There are reports also from pilots saying how 109s break on combat and yaks could not follow that turns at hight speeds because they would cause the wing to snap so something is Definetlly wrong

"Messerschmitt had ailerons (I think this is not a right translation but I really cant remember the exact english word for "predkrilca" my note: He was actually referring to leading edge slots) to prevent it from stalling and Jak stalled even on highest speed. In sharp turns Messerschmitt provoked a black-out and that was not possible with the Jak since he would stall. On other hand Jak easily came out of the spin and Messerschmitt stalled slowly but when it did it was hard to get it out due to small command surfaces"

 

Now try to black out with the 109. with neutral trim position on a braking manouver...... mmm.... almost not possible. Now with the yak..... OH! We can!

1. Please do point at where exactly the manual says anything about 'sharp moovements at 600 kph'.
2. 'Something is wrong ... Definetlly wrong' - please do state what exactly is wrong and how it is wrong? Structural strength of the Yak's wing? Ability to pull to the black-out? 109's stick forces? What?
3. Don't you see that the pilot's quote you gave actually confirms that the passage in the manual about sharp pulling on the stick indeed referes to the accelerated stall and does not contradict the games' current state? [side note: the quote talks about leading edge slats of the 109].

On 2/14/2019 at 2:33 AM, E69_geramos109 said:

----Same with manual limit about the diving speed. You are asuming that the plane is going to gain more speed while recovering... We can say the same with 109 then. But no. The manual is clear about that:

....

 

El_Oso clearly showed by his test that you can dive up to 900+ in a 109 (+150km/h to the manual max dive speed of 750) and only up to 760 in Yak (+110km/h to the manual max dive speed of 650). Therefore your claims about too high in-game dive speed limits of the Yak as opposed to 109s are wrong.

 

On 2/14/2019 at 2:33 AM, E69_geramos109 said:

[The developers] took report from Lagg test where a pilot achieve to reach 700 and then they aplied the margin as with the 109 they aplied the margin just from manual... So they take best speed ever reported from a lagg and they use it but with the 109 just the manual. If they do the same the 109 speed limit would be 1000kph because you have one report talking about 950 IAS so as you can see the criterium about limits is quite different and the side more beneficed is the red one while on the real life 109s were walking  on the park at 700 while the yak pilot had to take a lot of care abobe 620 (Not even thinking if the 109 pilot had balls to put that thing over 800 triming the elevator to pull out. You have even mustag pilot talking about how they just needed to pull out because daner angle and speed of diving while the 109s were just diving vertical recovering with the THS so the comparation with the yak is just ridiculous

1. What relevance LaGG has to Yak?
2. What makes you think that Yaks pilots 'had to take a lot of care abobe 620'?
3. Please clarify the logic behind first stating that Yak pilots had to execute care 'abobe 620' and then saying that it was normal for 109 pilots to dive up to 800km/h? If one manual says '650km/h' and the other '750km/h' why in the first case you should start to worry at 620 and in the second only at 800? From what I know it is not at all that clear what speed an average 109 could reach and it is not a stated fact that 109s could consistently and safely reach 850-950 speeds without breaking anything. Read this post on an external resource for example. As I said before, the devs' approach is pretty consistent - there is a certain safety margin above what manuals advise as max dive-exit speeds to what the actual structural limit is in the game.

On 2/14/2019 at 2:33 AM, E69_geramos109 said:

About the oil pressure: I give you Again the manual:

 

 "The entry on the dive MUST be made starting with a turn or with a half  roll to avoid the fall of the pressure of the oil

 

of course all aircraf can not be on negative G forever but the 109 as others could do it to dive with no worries as every pilot reported. You have a lot of references on battle of england so noo need to talk too much about this i Think. I never found any report where someone says any problem with engine  pulling negative Gs to stard any kind of combat manouver. hartman did it as hes evasive manouver. Of course something can happen as on the Red7 accident (I think was caused to some negative G moove) On the other hand yak manual clearly says MUST

 

 

So you are saying that if something is not written in the manual it does not exist? 109 has no mention of the negative or zero-g flight in the manual but still the 'Red 7' crashes. How so? Then if for example F16 manual says: 'Each feed tank has a horizontal baffle which traps fuel, providing a minimum of 10 seconds of negative g flight at MAX power. No sustained zero g capability is provided, and prolonged transitions through zero g (greater than 2 seconds) may produce a L and/or R BOOST LO caution.' and 109's manual does not say so (is there is such a thing as a 109 'flight manual' by the way?) Does that mean that F16 is not capable of prolonged negative g and zero-g at all, while the 109 is? Or that F16's pilot has more trouble flying than 109's pilot?

 

On 2/14/2019 at 2:33 AM, E69_geramos109 said:

About overcooling. Yes it is on prolonged dives. Try it on the game. Dive from 5 k on a prolonged dive. It oveercools if you dont close rads? How much it overcools? What happens to the engine if he in deed overcools? loosing performance? something?

1. I re-iterate: prolonged descent is irrelevant to the topic of the dive in a combat situation.
2. It does overcool. Depends on the weather and initial t.
3. Ok, imagine the devs would change the model so it cools faster, but that will mean that it will overheat way later as well. Would you like it more then?
4. In the end - if Yaks start to overcool faster in a prolonged descend, will it help you to win the fight?

On 2/14/2019 at 2:33 AM, E69_geramos109 said:

About overreving: Try it dive on vertical from slow speed with max rmp set up. Reach even breaking point of the wings over the speed limt. Does it overrev? Does it break the engine? NO

So why is the advice there on the manual? for nothin? just they wanted to spend printing resources or making the pilot to underperform making him to worry about things that did not happen? NO

1. Why it should?
2. Manual says: 'do not exceed 2800rpm' that is - keep your eye on the tachymetre. It does not say that it will happen. Do you know how constant speed propeller functioned on the Yak? There were issues for example when oil froze in the propeller regulator during prolonged constant speed flight and then the regulator failed to change the pitch, the Pe-2 manual for example recommends cyclying the prop RPM every now and then to prevent this from happening. wouldn't you think that the advice is there for this kind of cases? The armature of the engines at those times were far from perfect.
3. Where would you think this comes from: 'Warning: if you set the aircraft into a dive from all-out level flight or quickly apply full-throttle in flight, you will be dangerously close to over-revving the engine.'?

In general, correct me if I am wrong: you're not saying that there is something wrong with the Yak's dive speed but that there are things that are not mentioned in the 109's manual but are in the Yak's one and that these erhh... discrepancies make Yak outright bad plane and that your unhappiness with the outcomes of your online fights is due to the devs' bias. Is it right?

Edited March 5, 2019 by 72AG_terror