Squaring the vulching circle against 262's

[HagarTheHorrible]

The best time to take down a 262 is during take off or landing.  Given that vulching has always been a bit problematic in flight sims how can this thorny issue be best addressed that will provide some sort of satisfaction for all ( most) concerned ?  

[JtD]

Don't use it online. As long as there's no 8th air force, there's no point in flying a 262.

[7.GShAP/Silas]

25 minutes ago, JtD said:

Don't use it online. As long as there's no 8th air force, there's no point in flying a 262.

 

 

They were also used in ground attack, bombing, strafing and various other purposes(like shooting down IL-2s) .

 

The answer is easy, servers with 262s need flak alleys like in reality, covering the avenue of approach for returning 262s.  This was very effective, given the circumstances.  You could also have many improvised mini-airfields on stretches of highway, like so:

 

Edited May 20, 2018 by 7.GShAP/Silas

[Haza]

Start your own III./JG-54 Dora gang!!

Edited May 20, 2018 by Haza

[Tyberan]

Maybe you could setup a circus of some kind, like a collection of 3 or 4 pilots in some colourful Dora’s. 

 

Just saying

[senseispcc]

Do not include it into the game.

It is a bit strong but do not forget that the Me 262 had 2 functions;

1/ bombers interceptor (the plane was good at it)

2/ harassment bomber (the plane was bad at this mission because is range was to small)

none of this 2 functions enter the scope of the game. 

[LukeFF]

12 minutes ago, senseispcc said:

none of this 2 functions enter the scope of the game. 

 

Yes, because the plane is not yet in the game, yet you know exactly how it will function. Riiiiight. 

[curiousGamblerr]

As your title alludes, the problem is impossible to solve, someone will always complain.

 

(for those that aren’t aware, squaring the circle refers to the ancient problem of constructing a square with equal area to that of a given circle, using a compass and straightedge.. an impossible task given the transcendental nature of pi, proven in the 19th century, thousands of years after the problem was initially proposed in Ancient Greece)

[ShamrockOneFive]

5 hours ago, JtD said:

Don't use it online. As long as there's no 8th air force, there's no point in flying a 262.

 

I./KG51 and II./KG51... Point found

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Alternatively you could operate the 262 from rear airfields in the Frankfurt region like they should be instead of chosing the field closest to the hotspots.

 

Why people moan it should ve excluded when it yet has to be put into the game is beyond me. Early Mustang tears?

[DD_Arthur]

5 hours ago, HagarTheHorrible said:

The best time to take down a 262 is during take off or landing.  Given that vulching has always been a bit problematic in flight sims how can this thorny issue be best addressed that will provide some sort of satisfaction for all ( most) concerned ?  

 

I think Silas has given us the answer;  the reality was the Germans soon learned to protect the approaches to their airfields with a flak corridor sometimes upto 2km in length, lined with light AA guns.

This was extremely effective against allied fighters sent up to ambush 262s on their return to these airfields.  In return the allies started to carpet bomb these fields using both medium and heavy bomber raids. The Germans then switched to using a network of suitable roads and temporary fields that could be made ready by at very short notice.

 

I've no-doubt people will complain about the amount of flak they encounter but that was the historical reality......

Edited May 20, 2018 by DD_Arthur

[JtD]

6 minutes ago, 6./ZG26_5tuka said:

Why people moan it should ve excluded when it yet has to be put into the game is beyond me.

Years of experience with Il2:1946. I can't remember a single online scenario where the Me262 added anything worth the added bitching and moaning by those who couldn't fight against a jet, or by those would couldn't fight with it.

[Lusekofte]

There where squadrons tasked with covering the 262 during landing. Question is will this cooperation be possible online in this game. I never seen it in public servers, but in events like FNBF I can imagine that will be happening. And maybe in the more objective and campaign oriented servers. 

Taking down a 262 in landing/takeoff configuration is textbook intercept. In this case it hardly would be called vulching . In reality it is the only time you ever get a chance for a intercept

I am however sure a few will be effective in a 262 at low level as a fighter, but most like me will find it hard. As a bomber I think it will serve well

[Haza]

36 minutes ago, JtD said:

Years of experience with Il2:1946. I can't remember a single online scenario where the Me262 added anything worth the added bitching and moaning by those who couldn't fight against a jet, or by those would couldn't fight with it.

 

Well as you are not bothering to buy it you have little to worry about. However, I'm sure that with the introduction of the 8th Air Force all bitching and moaning will cease.

[JtD]

I'm pretty sure I'll buy it, don't worry. As it is, I fly offline so that I don't have to deal with all the bitching and moaning, and there it may even be fun flying and fighting the 262.

 

What's your experience with the 262 on dogfight type servers?

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

As long as the 262 is no key element of a mission it should not tip the balance nor make it "useless" in any way.

As for a comparison the jet vs prop events in War Thunder were quite interesting. 75% of the time the american props won because all the 262s either crashed into the ground due to pilot error or were lured into slow turnfighs fpr their lack of hitting sth as small as a fighter at high speed. Still people were moaning bout german bias and unfair jets.

 

Having big maps 262s can be forced to take off from rear airfields and head across the whole map which combined with the limired endurance will put enough constraints on it to ensure theres no unfair advantage. 

[BlitzPig_EL]

Given the game engine limitations on placing large numbers of flak guns on any map, not to mention one as large as this one will be, I'm going to say that many P38, Tempest, and P47 pilots are going to have a pretty good time tearing up the airfields where the 262s are based.

 

I know they would be my primary target.  Nothing more satisfying than catching a couple of jets on the ramp waiting to taxi.   I suspect they should be pretty flammable.

 

Edited May 20, 2018 by BlitzPig_EL

[7.GShAP/Silas]

41 minutes ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

Given the game engine limitations on placing large numbers of flak guns on any map, not to mention one as large as this one will be, I'm going to say that many P38, Tempest, and P47 pilots are going to have a pretty good time tearing up the airfields where the 262s are based.

 

I know they would be my primary target.  Nothing more satisfying than catching a couple of jets on the ramp waiting to taxi.   I suspect they should be pretty flammable.

 

 

 

I definitely think it will add a lot of fun on both sides.  Hunter and hunted in equal measure.

[Gambit21]

Blitz - it only takes a single flak gun or two set to "Ace" and it's good night.

This thread exists only because of a lack of discernment between actual "vulching" and strafing or air to air combat.

 

 

Edited May 20, 2018 by Gambit21

[=621=Samikatz]

Keep 262s on their own dedicated airfields. Allied pilots can target them to suppress the threat of jet fighters, axis prop pilots can treat it as an objective to defend, clearing the skies for the 262s to take off safely

[HagarTheHorrible]

2 hours ago, =621=Samikatz said:

Keep 262s on their own dedicated airfields. Allied pilots can target them to suppress the threat of jet fighters, axis prop pilots can treat it as an objective to defend, clearing the skies for the 262s to take off safely

 

Sounds like a plan.  I was wondering  if it might be possible to differentiate between acceptable 262 staffing and General vulching

 

Could a pair of A.I 190's be tasked to cover take off and landing points  with replacements only getting dispatched from their home field when the previous pair have been shot down  giving an extra window of jeopardy and opportunity for each side ?

 

While flak alleys are key to effective defence I've always had a problem with them that, I always feel cheated that the effectiveness never seems proportionate to the quantity.  It always seems all risk without enough drama to justify it.

 

Does it need saying that 262's MUST take off AND land to fulfill any mission, or personal, goals.

 

I could foresee a good mission scenario where the 262's have limited fuel supplies available, pilots can fill their tanks to the detriment of others or they can share the fuel between them, juggling between numbers available and mission length/loiter time.  Pilots might improve their chances of getting hold of fuel available by waiting in the cockpit, on the ground, but thus also increasing the chance of being straffed.   Additional fuel only becomes available if fuel convoys are protected and get through to the 262 bases to replenish stocks.  

 

 

4 hours ago, DD_Arthur said:

 

I think Silas has given us the answer;  the reality was the Germans soon learned to protect the approaches to their airfields with a flak corridor sometimes upto 2km in length, lined with light AA guns.

This was extremely effective against allied fighters sent up to ambush 262s on their return to these airfields.  In return the allies started to carpet bomb these fields using both medium and heavy bomber raids. The Germans then switched to using a network of suitable roads and temporary fields that could be made ready by at very short notice.

 

I've no-doubt people will complain about the amount of flak they encounter but that was the historical reality......

 

So you end up with a choice between obvious, well defended bases or hidden badly defended ones ?

Edited May 20, 2018 by HagarTheHorrible

[ZachariasX]

The (more easily made available) diesel fuel for the 262 was not really in short supply as C3 fuels. Jet fuel can’t realistically come as competition for high octane fuels. Fuel and airframes were the two things that were not that much on shortage.

 

Honestly, I don‘t see much of a special impact this plane can make in the BoBP scenario beyond armed recce.

 

Old school 109 drivers will kill all aloft in their K4, the 262 doesn‘t provide that much more. But in turn it requires much more foresight from a pilot to get essentially the same as you get in the 109.

 

The only plus the 262 has, you‘ll be able to conveniently run home on autolevel. But for anything beyond that, if you try to maneuver where be Tempests overhead, you are not that safe. It is problematic to get a firing solution at 200 km/h speed excess. Also you cannot just cruise in combat at almost max. speed, as Mach effects kick in suddenly and harsh. Just a shallow dive and you’re there. Slowing down in a problem then. Both not so much on the Tempest. While both AC have almost the same Vne, you‘re in much less trouble in the Tempest at such speed. 

 

[Gambit21]

I couldn't fight for crap in the 262 in the old sim...too much speed.

I don't think I ever successfully put a round into another aircraft.

I had fun flying it though.

[6./ZG26_Gielow]

Don't worry guys. The invencible mustang has a higher servicing ceiling than 262. Just buy Hartmann's book and learn how to do it

 

[Haza]

Just now, JtD said:

I'm pretty sure I'll buy it, don't worry. As it is, I fly offline so that I don't have to deal with all the bitching and moaning, and there it may even be fun flying and fighting the 262.

 

What's your experience with the 262 on dogfight type servers?

 

JtD,

 

Owing to the vast number of Me262 servers out there, I have only played the Me262 as perhaps most others have in Il2'46 servers and by today's standards, I wouldn't say now looking back that it was an accurate sim.  However, I do not need to play a sim to realise that the Me262 against conventional fighters was not suited to dog-fighting and indeed I actually asked in a different thread how the Me262 fighter version would be employed in a purely Bodenplatte environment (prior to the other Operations  that were recently announced as part of the Bodenplatte release) as I too believe that we require some sort of high altitude bombers for targets, even if Ai are used in a MP server, similar to the SOW server in cliffs that was able to generate bomber formations.  However, if BOS is anything to go by in MP, most Allied bomber guys with the GPS will be on the tree tops and as such the advantage that the Luftwaffe did have at altitude will perhaps be lost in BoBp and thus the Me262 will be bounced while chasing the bombers on the deck.

 

However, what this current sim has shown me is that with HOTAS, comms (6 call outs etc), and non real life type failures etc, perhaps even the perceived lame Allied aircraft used against historically better Luftwaffe aircraft can be used in such a way to out weigh all of the historical disadvantages, so perhaps it may work the other way with the Me262.  As one moderator said, "why do players expect sophisticated aerodynamics to be used a computer sim" (or words to that effect), so I'm under no illusion that we can expect the sim to be 100% totally accurate!

 

I'm currently reading a book regarding the Me262 and J Steinhoff discusses the fact that the Me262A-1a was an ambush fighter and not a real turn fighter, so I'm truly hoping that this will be simulated very well in BoBp.   However, in the same book it also discusses that pilots discovered that the Me262 held its speed in tight turns much better than conventional fights and while not as tight, it was more stable at full power so as long as you didn't let the speed drop to much you could turn and at least get on the enemies 6.  Therefore, as long as a pilot was not lured into a low and slow turning fight, he would have few problems in combat. 

 

In deed, even Walter Kruipinski said that they were aware that they couldn't turn as tight as a conventional fighter, but if they kept their speed up in the turn then they would be fine, although I guess looking at the stats they lost more Me262s during the landing and take-off stages, so dog-fights should not be of any concern!   However, the tactics employed by P-51 pilots was to have four P-51s on one Me262 to cover the jet either turning left, right or diving while the 4th gave chase, so it will be interesting to see what happens in game.

 

In addition, Galland thought that the Me262 was wasted as a bomber and as we all know it was the management that wanted the Me262 used as a bomber rather than a fighter/Interceptor, although during the very last few days of the war most pilots were allowed to do whatever they wanted and most used the Me262 as a CAS aircraft to fend off the Russians.

 

Anyway, whatever the Me262 brings to this sim, I'm willingly to give it a go, as thankfully it is only a game for us!

 

Regards

[Legioneod]

5 hours ago, 6./ZG26_Gielow said:

Don't worry guys. The invencible mustang has a higher servicing ceiling than 262. Just buy Hartmann's book and learn how to do it

 

Not really saying much, most of the aircraft in the lineup have a higher ceiling than the 262. Don't really think it matters though seeing as most combat will take place at mid to low alt, I do like high alt fights so I hope to see a few.

[JtD]

Thanks for your opinion Haza. Couple of points I'd like to pick up.

 

1946 wasn't 100% accurate, but to for me it was the first simulation game where historical tactics produced historical results, which mean, on an absolute scale, it was accurate enough. I'd wager the same thing is true about the Me262. The performance advantage of which is largest at low altitude. Down low, the 262 can achieve about the maximum climb rate of a P-51, while flying at the level top speed of the P-51. The performance limiting compression is a Mach effect, and it will set in very late at sea level. So I'm also expecting the fight to take place at low altitude, but in my eyes that not really a disadvantage for the 262. It will be extremely hard to intercept, both if you want to protect bombers, or if you want to protect ground targets. Which, from my experience, is the key problem. The other side has to take measures dedicated to combating the 262, such as forfeiting the use of actual bombers or group efforts near ground targets to chase down a single attacker. On a server where the sides are typically numerically balanced, this does not work out.

 

I'm expecting it to be used as a hit and run aircraft, and with a speed advantage of 200km/h, it can very quickly close the gap on any unaware target, and 4xMK108 will make sure that one attack brings result. At the same time, even with a 262 pilot paying little attention to his environment, it is relatively save, just because of the speed. Also from a purely combat perspective, it's not going to be a lot of fun. It's similar to a Fw190A vs. I-16 scenario.

 

On a historical note, seeing how poorly the Luftwaffe bombers faired against the Allies, to the point where attacks against England had to be stopped, Hitler said he wanted a new fast bomber which allowed them to pick up operations again. It was Messerschmitt who said he had just the thing - the Me262. Of course, he didn't do it because the 262 was the ideal candidate for this job, he did it because he wanted Hitlers favour so he could get more resources for his company. He had produced the successful 109 and 110, the successors of which both were failures, and his ego did not allow him to become a second rate manufacturer, licence building Ju of Fw would not have been acceptable. So he did what all idiots in managing positions do - he made idiotic promises to his boss, just to look good again.

And where do you think things would go from there? If you promise your boss a bomber, get all the resources you request, and then a year later come back to tell him he's been had, you've made a fighter instead? So Hitler insisted on getting his bomber, and Willi never had the guts to tell him otherwise.

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

One thing I wonder is how will this be sorted on a server level. I'm expecting that everyone will try to fly this thing which points to unrealistic scenario of one Allied fighter to one Me 262. And combat with it will be dull. It will be more of the same Luftwaffe just diving and climbing.

[klebor]

6 minutes ago, =362nd_FS=Hiromachi said:

One thing I wonder is how will this be sorted on a server level. I'm expecting that everyone will try to fly this thing which points to unrealistic scenario of one Allied fighter to one Me 262. And combat with it will be dull. It will be more of the same Luftwaffe just diving and climbing.

I don't think so. All will depend on server.

I.e. - considering current missions - in Wings of Liberty only some tiny amount of Me-262 will be available in mission.

[ZachariasX]

It will be important that compressibility and Mack tuck will be modelled reasonably. As JtD stated, the main speed limit for the 262 are Mach effects. At lower altitude, there will be still be some headroom between max. level flight speed and Mach effects. This is the speed advantage that can be used by Tempests with their relatively high critical Mach number (in contrast to the P-47 with a much lower critical Mach). An advantage that becomes important in the generally good weather settings in MP missions, as opposed to the mosty abyssmal weather in winter ’45. I’d expect on MP servers a gaggle of TS guys camping high over „hot“ areas, and life will not be so straight forward for 262, especially if one chooses to separate from a fight by pulling up. The setting really makes it more suitable for the 109-K4, in which such campers might be good feeding grounds.

 

At least, the miserable fuel efficiency of the Jumo004 at low altitude will not matter too much in our settings. Otherwise, higher cruise altitudes would be required.

 

But as mentioned, the flying style would be very different in the jet. But as it was everywhere in real life. A pilot instructor of mine, he was flying Mustangs and Moranes in the SAF. Then he got transitioned to the Vampire jets. Although it was a very good aircraft as such (and he being as tiny as Eric Brown, he fit in the cockpit even with a chute) he didn‘t like it too much initially. You had to let it go straight and do shallow climbs to make use of it. They loved the Mustang (and didn’t care for the Morane) as you could hang that on on the prop and do tight aerobatics with it and felt that that was generally more fun than jets. It generally took a while until they were really at home in the jets. Needless to say, eventually they also found their way of having fun with those.

[JtD]

Zach, I think you're underestimating the effects of the higher limiting Mach numbers at low altitude. If I'm assuming a limit of 0.75 for an academic example, this equates to about 900km/h indicated at sea level, and to about 650km/h indicated at 6km altitude. You will run into other limits than just Mach number down low, and it will increase drag and thus thrust requirements and thus necessary dive angle tremendously. You can imagine that it is much easier to accelerate in a dive from your level top speed of 500 to a speed of 600, than it is to accelerate from 600 to 900.

At high speed, the 262 produces about 5000hp down low, and that's an advantage that's not easily overcome. Once the 262 is fast, it is very, very difficult to intercept. Best chance you stand if you want to prevent the damage, not just possibly catch up after the fact, is to stay reasonably low, directly above the target, and go head to head with 4 MK108 when you spot them incoming. Good luck.

[Ehret]

10 minutes ago, JtD said:

At high speed, the 262 produces about 5000hp down low, and that's an advantage that's not easily overcome. Once the 262 is fast, it is very, very difficult to intercept. Best chance you stand if you want to prevent the damage, not just possibly catch up after the fact, is to stay reasonably low, directly above the target, and go head to head with 4 MK108 when you spot them incoming. Good luck.

 

Considering low muzzle velocity of the MK108 and diminishing returns (at least against fighter sized air-frames) the Tempest's quad Hispanos might be on a par in such situation.

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

So far I cant see any trouble scoring with MK 108. Based on former experiences in other products I've expected it to be more difficult to score with MK 108 due to mentioned above muzzle velocity. Yet it feels not much different to MG 151/20.

It seems that primary use of Me 262 will be in fighter vs fighter role.

[Haza]

Just now, JtD said:

Thanks for your opinion Haza. Couple of points I'd like to pick up.

 

1946 wasn't 100% accurate, but to for me it was the first simulation game where historical tactics produced historical results, which mean, on an absolute scale, it was accurate enough. I'd wager the same thing is true about the Me262. The performance advantage of which is largest at low altitude. Down low, the 262 can achieve about the maximum climb rate of a P-51, while flying at the level top speed of the P-51. The performance limiting compression is a Mach effect, and it will set in very late at sea level. So I'm also expecting the fight to take place at low altitude, but in my eyes that not really a disadvantage for the 262. It will be extremely hard to intercept, both if you want to protect bombers, or if you want to protect ground targets. Which, from my experience, is the key problem. The other side has to take measures dedicated to combating the 262, such as forfeiting the use of actual bombers or group efforts near ground targets to chase down a single attacker. On a server where the sides are typically numerically balanced, this does not work out.

 

I'm expecting it to be used as a hit and run aircraft, and with a speed advantage of 200km/h, it can very quickly close the gap on any unaware target, and 4xMK108 will make sure that one attack brings result. At the same time, even with a 262 pilot paying little attention to his environment, it is relatively save, just because of the speed. Also from a purely combat perspective, it's not going to be a lot of fun. It's similar to a Fw190A vs. I-16 scenario.

 

On a historical note, seeing how poorly the Luftwaffe bombers faired against the Allies, to the point where attacks against England had to be stopped, Hitler said he wanted a new fast bomber which allowed them to pick up operations again. It was Messerschmitt who said he had just the thing - the Me262. Of course, he didn't do it because the 262 was the ideal candidate for this job, he did it because he wanted Hitlers favour so he could get more resources for his company. He had produced the successful 109 and 110, the successors of which both were failures, and his ego did not allow him to become a second rate manufacturer, licence building Ju of Fw would not have been acceptable. So he did what all idiots in managing positions do - he made idiotic promises to his boss, just to look good again.

And where do you think things would go from there? If you promise your boss a bomber, get all the resources you request, and then a year later come back to tell him he's been had, you've made a fighter instead? So Hitler insisted on getting his bomber, and Willi never had the guts to tell him otherwise.

 

 

JtD,

 

I'm certainly not beating my chest and advocating that I'm an expert, however, I'm just quoting and paraphrasing from the book that I'm reading, so I'm guessing that the likes of Galland, Steinhoff and others, knew what they were talking about, indeed, reading about the death of Nowotny when he crashed or the crash that claimed Steinhoff, is certainly not what is actually reflected in the likes of Wikipedia.  In deed the book appears to suggest that the Me262 was picked overall because of its adaptability, that Goring demanded of the airframe and that it was relatively cheap to manufacture.  Messerschmitt's name had already been synonymous with excellence in aircraft fighter design and as such was already favoured as a designer by Hitler so he didn't have to work to be a Yes man to win anything, indeed if this was the case I would have to question therefore why the He177 was selected over the Me264 if you believe that Messerschmitt was such a lap dog to Hitler. 

 

However from my understanding was that during a test flight in May 43, observed by Hitler and Galland and others, Hitler turned to Messerschmitt and asked "Is this aircraft able to carry bombs?"  When the answer was yes "A 250kg bomb or even two of them", Hitler basically said that it was the Blitz bomber that he had been asking for for years and then instructed Messerschmitt to make all necessary preparations to make this feasible.  In deed Galland was quoted as saying "I felt my heart sink at that moment".

 

Apparently, the next day, Hitler signed a letter giving Speer access to everything that he need to make the bomber!  Therefore, I'm still scratching my head why you blame poor old Willi as he merely answered a question, however, I'm sure your sources of information are just as credible and reliable as mine and perhaps things just get missed or over-looked over time!

 

I'm currently reading about the He280  and the Ar234.

 

Regards

 

 

Just now, =362nd_FS=Hiromachi said:

So far I cant see any trouble scoring with MK 108. Based on former experiences in other products I've expected it to be more difficult to score with MK 108 due to mentioned above muzzle velocity. Yet it feels not much different to MG 151/20.

It seems that primary use of Me 262 will be in fighter vs fighter role.

 

The biggest danger for the Me262 with head on fights is the debris field of the other aircraft with the jet engines.

Edited May 21, 2018 by Haza

[TP_Silk]

Maybe I just 'don't get it', but I really do not see why people would complain about use of a legitimate tactic that was developed early on to counter the threat of these aircraft. Yes, it will be hazardous if either the mission designers implement flak protection or their comrades mount a CAP over the bases, but otherwise it is exactly the tactic used against Me-262s until, as stated, the Luftwaffe developed protective measures.

 

Shooting a 262 on approach isn't vulching - it's a legit and historical tactic.

Edited May 21, 2018 by TP_Silk

[Haza]

Just now, TP_Silk said:

Maybe I just 'don't get it', but I really do not see why people would complain about use of a legitimate tactic that was developed early on to counter the threat of these aircraft. Yes, it will be hazardous if either the mission designers implement flak protection or their comrades mount a CAP over the bases, but otherwise it is exactly the tactic used against Me-262s until, as stated, the Luftwaffe developed protective measures.

 

Shooting a 262 on approach isn't vulching - it's a legit and historical tactic.

 

TP_Silk,

 

Why-I-man, or something like that, i was going to ask Newcastle or Sunderland supporter! 

 

Joking aside, the vast majority of Me262s that were shot down were dispatched in the manner above and as such was the most dangerous time for the jets.  In deed, apparently Nowotny was jumped when he was on finals and although the P-51 didn't shoot him at this stage, it is assumed that he panicked and lost control.

 

Regards

 

PS.  The other way to kill a pilot was to either try and kill him whilst he was in the chute or as he ran away from his downed aircraft, both tactics employed by the Americans, so expect the whole chute discussion to flare up again next year!!!

Just now, JtD said:

Zach, I think you're underestimating the effects of the higher limiting Mach numbers at low altitude. If I'm assuming a limit of 0.75 for an academic example, this equates to about 900km/h indicated at sea level, and to about 650km/h indicated at 6km altitude. You will run into other limits than just Mach number down low, and it will increase drag and thus thrust requirements and thus necessary dive angle tremendously. You can imagine that it is much easier to accelerate in a dive from your level top speed of 500 to a speed of 600, than it is to accelerate from 600 to 900.

At high speed, the 262 produces about 5000hp down low, and that's an advantage that's not easily overcome. Once the 262 is fast, it is very, very difficult to intercept. Best chance you stand if you want to prevent the damage, not just possibly catch up after the fact, is to stay reasonably low, directly above the target, and go head to head with 4 MK108 when you spot them incoming. Good luck.

 

I guess it will be interesting to see how many players try and dive away from high/medium alt in the Me262, only for it to carry on in the dive as they try and recover.

I noticed on one of the other threads a suggestion about using the A-20 in SP, therefore perhaps we will see at least some Allied bomber action.

 

regards

Edited May 21, 2018 by Haza
PS

[TWC_Ace]

Me262 will be butchered online due to unrealistic use of comms. One can call for help even if he is on the other side of the map. Also I doubt we will have large big bomber formations online which were the primary target for Me262.

Edited May 21, 2018 by blackram

[TP_Silk]

31 minutes ago, Haza said:

 

Why-I-man, or something like that, i was going to ask Newcastle or Sunderland supporter! 

 

 

 

Unusually, neither. I was born in the midlands and brought up in the South West of England (Devonshire). I moved to the North East in 91 mainly so that I was the other side of the country from my ex-wife when I left the Army. The people up here are friendly and the beer is not too badly priced.... I'll stick with that :D 

[Haza]

Just now, TP_Silk said:

 

Unusually, neither. I was born in the midlands and brought up in the South West of England (Devonshire). I moved to the North East in 91 mainly so that I was the other side of the country from my ex-wife when I left the Army. The people up here are friendly and the beer is not too badly priced.... I'll stick with that :D 

 

I went to school in Richmond for 2 years as my Father was serving with the RMP at Catterick.

Nice part of the world up there!

[56RAF_Roblex]

 

The answer is very simple.   Vulching is not an issue.    Finnish explicitly says 'Anything goes' and WoL, Coconut & TAW say nothing about it in their rules.