BOBP: Where are the bombers?

[Bremspropeller]

"Heavy fighter" is a bit of a misnomer for the lack of a fitting english term of "Zerstörer" (literally "destroyer").

The Ju 88C-6 would be a "Schwerer Zerstörer" (heavy destroyer). I'd say it's closest allied mission-designation would be that of an intruder.

That is both day and night (the Ju 88C was in fact used for night intruder missions over Britain, too, but the practice was stopped early on*).

Performance-wise it's probaly closer to a Beaufighter than to a Mosquito. Roland Beaumont had an episode testing a late-war Ju 88G against a Mosquito in a mock-dogfight and found both airplanes very evenly matched.

 

The G does have a lot more oomph than the C, though. Not only in terms of performance, but also regarding firepower.

 

 

30 minutes ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

The A20 is a great light bomber, but it doesn't have the defensive capability of the Mitchel or Marauder, nor their bomb load capability. 

 

It flies nicer, though. Two Havocs giving mutual support can mess up some fighters really bad. Especially when the fighters are underestimating the Havoc's vertical performance. Two seasoned A-20Gs (or later) can be a nasty surprise. It's a slightly more tactical airplane - even though historically at the stage of war depicted on BoN it was mostly used as mid-level bomber in Europe, too.

 

The B-25 to me is only interesting in a merchant-raider/ strafer role (*cough* New Guinea *cough*).

The B-26 would probably make the most sense, as it's (slightly) faster and it's also new - IIRC it hasn't been done in other game before.

 

My 0.02$.

 

___

* One of the german blunders. The intruder-mission isn't really clear cut - it's probably best defined as 'find the enemy (any kind of enemy) and attack him'. No matter if that's airplanes, all kinds of vehicles on the ground, naval vessels or general interdiction.

[BlitzPig_EL]

I agree that the A20 is a good flying aircraft in the sim.  Personally I rank it in the top echelon of aircraft that are available to us as flyable.

When a target has to be destroyed, on the ground or at sea, the A20 is my weapon of choice.  I've shot down several of my squad mates who were flying 109s trying to intercept us with it as well.  Classic drag and bag tactics.  I just wish the A20 had double the ammo load on the forward guns.

 

Oh, the A20 has, by far, the best external engine sound in the game.

It's pure sonic sex.

[354thFG_Leifr]

4 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

The B-26 would probably make the most sense, as it's (slightly) faster and it's also new - IIRC it hasn't been done in other game before.

 

The B-26 Marauder was available in Combat Flight Simulator 3, almost twenty years ago now.

[Pharoah]

Loving the fact we are getting the mosquito but yeah the devs seriously need to look at adding more medium level bombers into the game. Given where we are with battles (esp after BoBP and BoN), they're kinda running out of unique fighters to make especially given the Pacific is kinda off the table and we have that crappy (imho) CloD addon that has taken over the Med. So what should/could the devs produce next without having to include medium bombers? If the next release was something like 1942/43 aircraft that would just be a real waste as it would only really be earlier variants of what we already have, which i certainly wouldn't pay for. 

 

Anyway, not having a go at the devs - I'm a massive supporter/fan of the IL2 BoX series and want to see it flourish...I just prefer they fill in the obvious holes in a/c. Having said that...if the devs DO go the Pacific next, I'd happily shut my mouth....for now

[Gambit21]

11 hours ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

I agree that the A20 is a good flying aircraft in the sim.  Personally I rank it in the top echelon of aircraft that are available to us as flyable.

When a target has to be destroyed, on the ground or at sea, the A20 is my weapon of choice.  I've shot down several of my squad mates who were flying 109s trying to intercept us with it as well.  Classic drag and bag tactics.  I just wish the A20 had double the ammo load on the forward guns.

 

Oh, the A20 has, by far, the best external engine sound in the game.

It's pure sonic sex.

 

Wish it was a G...but yep.

[KaC_Richard_Rogers]

2 hours ago, [ASOR]Pharoah said:

Loving the fact we are getting the mosquito but yeah the devs seriously need to look at adding more medium level bombers into the game. Given where we are with battles (esp after BoBP and BoN), they're kinda running out of unique fighters to make especially given the Pacific is kinda off the table and we have that crappy (imho) CloD addon that has taken over the Med. So what should/could the devs produce next without having to include medium bombers? If the next release was something like 1942/43 aircraft that would just be a real waste as it would only really be earlier variants of what we already have, which i certainly wouldn't pay for. 

 

Anyway, not having a go at the devs - I'm a massive supporter/fan of the IL2 BoX series and want to see it flourish...I just prefer they fill in the obvious holes in a/c. Having said that...if the devs DO go the Pacific next, I'd happily shut my mouth....for now

I think the answer to this is Italy and all of those AC we can explore. Battle of France or Fall of the Reich has possibilities as well. There are still enough Allied AC to plug into Italy, with a couple of German kites to keep Lufties happy as well.

I’m still hoping we can get to the Pacific after reading Pacific Crucible and Conquering Tide. Both are excellent reads and not just dry history rehash. have a new interest in the Solomons now. Picking up Twilight of the Gods in about fifteen minutes. Just pulled into Barnes and Noble

Edited February 11, 2021 by KaC_Richard_Rogers

[Pharoah]

yeah I hear ya - I've said it before however I think the Devs missed a trick by going straight to BoBP instead of what they did with the russian front ie. BoS, BoM, BoK which kinda followed a chronological order...42, 43, 44 I think. But with BoBP they went straight to late 44/early 45.. Now they're trying to go backwards with BoN. Should have gone the other way and 'built up' to BoBP. Now everything we get will be a sort of 'step down' (not in quality..the quality is excellent, but in performance as you go backwards like a Spit XIV to IX to V to IIa to I etc). Either way, whats done is done and I'll still support them. 

[Fritz_X]

5 hours ago, [ASOR]Pharoah said:

BoS, BoM, BoK which kinda followed a chronological order...42, 43, 44 I think.

 

Your memory is deceiving you.

 

BoS takes place in 1942, BoM in 1941 and BoK in 1943. So the devs already went 'back in time' when they released BoM after BoS.

 

Didn't hurt anyone, did it?

 

I'd also disagree on the 'going backwards in performance' part. The Spit Mk.XIV, which is expected to be the next release in BoN's development cycle, is most likely going to be the fastest piston engine fighter we are going to get. It will be faster than the Mk.IX that came with BoBp and definitely is going to give opposing K4 pilots a chase.

 

The Ar-234 as a dedicated bomber is going to be nigh uncatchable, if flown cleverly.

 

The Mosquito is going to be just one of two multi engined fighter planes (the other one being the P-38) that somehow will fare a chance against enemy single engine fighters on its' own. If the pilot is skilled enough, that is.

 

Both the earlier P-51 and P-47 variants coming with BoN won't perform worse than their late counterparts from BoBp.

 

And even the Bf-109 G-6 late we already got doesn't fare worse compared to the G-14 we already have, for what it lacks in raw power it makes up for it by being the lighter plane and more nimble.

 

Both the Typhoon and the Fw-190 A-6 aren't powerhouses and planes like the Ju-88 C6 and the Me-410 are most likely going to be death traps in MP, but all of them are important planes, fitting the scenario and perfect choices for creating fresh SP scenarios.

Edited February 11, 2021 by Fritz_X

[Pharoah]

BoN is quite close to BoBP so the time diff isn't too great. However, what does 1C do after BoN then if the Pacific is off the table? you can't go an further than BoBP realistically...you have to go backwards. 

 

Now, I'm not against going backwards...I actually welcome it. My point is, they should have started with say 1942/3 aircraft and 'built up' to BoBP. 

 

Anyway, as I've said above - I'm in this for the long haul and will continue to support them. I just hope there are bombers on the horizon given WW2 was the bomber war as much as anything (1000 aircraft raids, etc). Help us round out the experience. 

[sevenless]

6 minutes ago, [ASOR]Pharoah said:

BoN is quite close to BoBP so the time diff isn't too great. However, what does 1C do after BoN then if the Pacific is off the table? you can't go an further than BoBP realistically...you have to go backwards. 

 

My bet is on 44/45 eastern front visula-oder operation, maybe extending into 4/45 battle of berlin. We may learn end of this year when BoN is near completion.

[BlitzPig_EL]

A lot of people want to fly the Yak 3, that's a certainty.

[NO.20_Krispy_Duck]

I see Flying Circus 2 after BoN, then maybe something more for tank crew in the 1945 period and late war eastern front planes like the Oder campaign.  I'd love to see at least a land-based Pacific theater like Burma or New Guinea, but probably not in the cards. On-going Flying Circus improvements are always a plus. There's still mileage there to be had, I think.

 

With WW2, the thing is that if you try to go back before BoN, the elephant in the room is the strategic bombing campaign, which was a defining aspect of that part of the war. The massive daylight USAAF raids and the night RAF raids are one of the most iconic campaigns in history. But given the limitations, it's unlikely in this iteration of the game. As far as that part of the war goes, IL2 1946 with mods is still the game to have in that it captures the strategic bombing campaign. Then there's the Pacific, which IL2 1946 with mods still does well. With some of the free mods out there, it's quite good. A bit dated... but good still.

[Luftschiff]

I definitely crave a bit of sun. Burma, New Guinea, Or carriers, but if you can't go to the pacific I hope to high heaven they go way back in time, I'm so done with 44-45... Italy or France or Spain or Malta, Greece, Britain...Anything really. 

I've been thinking for a long time though that I'd rather have smaller maps with more detail and effort put into them. 
The current maps are enormous, and take a massive amount of time to make, but end up largely devoid of life because the content and dev attention is spread over such a large area. While only 10-30% of the maps are actively used by mission makers. I'd rather have three more focused maps with higher detail than two of the current sized ones. Give me a Karelia and a Malta, or the straits of Gibraltar, Give me Rabaul, or a detailed channel map full with ships and nevermind the south-eastern part of Centre Val de Loire. It's not just about the bombers themselves, we need things to bomb.

Edited February 15, 2021 by Luftschiff

[PatrickAWlson]

16 hours ago, [ASOR]Pharoah said:

Now, I'm not against going backwards...I actually welcome it. My point is, they should have started with say 1942/3 aircraft and 'built up' to BoBP. 

 

 

As a career mode guy I prefer the opposite.  Going from end to beginning allows me to finish a career at the end of the war.  As the product offering increases I get to move my start time back.  

[Pharoah]

I'm the same however I'd prefer to start in early war (1939 for the Brits, 1942 for the Yanks) in the ETO. Pretty much something similar to what Johnny Johnson or Pierre Closterman did, Closterman especially given he transitioned to Tempests.

Edited February 16, 2021 by [ASOR]Pharoah

[Airborne506]

On 2/10/2021 at 10:45 PM, KaC_Richard_Rogers said:

I’m still hoping we can get to the Pacific after reading Pacific Crucible and Conquering Tide. Both are excellent reads and not just dry history rehash. have a new interest in the Solomons now. Picking up Twilight of the Gods in about fifteen minutes. Just pulled into Barnes and Noble

 

I was reading a post on here somewhere outlining New Guinea as a nice possible bridge into the PTO - land based so don't have to dive into carrier operations, most allied planes at least U.S. are already ingame (albeit most are different versions). I've been dabbling back into 1946 with mods but BoX just feels/looks so much better. A man can dream...

 

That being said a flyable B-25 would be cool for Normandy, also conjures thoughts of a Crossbow campaign bombing/strafing V1 sites

[Gambit21]

On 2/10/2021 at 7:45 PM, KaC_Richard_Rogers said:

I think the answer to this is Italy and all of those AC we can explore. Battle of France or Fall of the Reich has possibilities as well. There are still enough Allied AC to plug into Italy, with a couple of German kites to keep Lufties happy as well.

I’m still hoping we can get to the Pacific after reading Pacific Crucible and Conquering Tide. Both are excellent reads and not just dry history rehash. have a new interest in the Solomons now. Picking up Twilight of the Gods in about fifteen minutes. Just pulled into Barnes and Noble

 

Read Guadalcanal by Richard B. Frank - you will ache for the Solomons. 

[Irishratticus72]

6 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

 

Read Guadalcanal by Richard B. Frank - you will ache for the Solomons. 

Honest, the best book on that campaign I've ever read. 

[Ribbon]

At this point i would be happy with anything that involves medium bombers and naval ops a bit more.

Will it be PTO, MTO or Channel based...it doesn't matter!

[Gambit21]

On 2/17/2021 at 6:02 AM, Irishratticus72 said:

Honest, the best book on that campaign I've ever read. 

 

I’ve read it twice - there will be a third time at some point.

[Irishratticus72]

21 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

 

I’ve read it twice - there will be a third time at some point.

Did you ever read any of Eric Hammel's books on the naval Air War over Guadalcanal? Highly recommended. 

[Gambit21]

1 hour ago, Irishratticus72 said:

Did you ever read any of Eric Hammel's books on the naval Air War over Guadalcanal? Highly recommended. 

 

No sir - I’ll check them out.

[adrianadunne]

On 2/11/2021 at 3:45 AM, KaC_Richard_Rogers said:

I’m still hoping we can get to the Pacific after reading Pacific Crucible and Conquering Tide. Both are excellent reads and not just dry history rehash. have a new interest in the Solomons now. Picking up Twilight of the Gods in about fifteen minutes. Just pulled into Barnes and Noble

 

Both excellent books, looking forward to the final part when the current reads are done and it's not €30 new. Until then I have Rick Atkinson's Liberation Trilogy started. 

 

Has any sim ever had the Storch as a flyable? Always fancied rescuing Mussolini from a landing spot the size of an Ant's lung.

 

 

[Gambit21]

On 2/14/2021 at 7:08 PM, BlitzPig_EL said:

A lot of people want to fly the Yak 3, that's a certainty.

 

It’s always the next plane that will finally make them an ace. Biggest dweeb plane in 1946 - Oleg gave it a MiG 15 flight model.

[Irishratticus72]

50 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

 

No sir - I’ll check them out.

Please excuse my cat's backside. She was not for moving. 

35 minutes ago, adrianadunne said:

 

Both excellent books, looking forward to the final part when the current reads are done and it's not €30 new. Until then I have Rick Atkinson's Liberation Trilogy started. 

 

Has any sim ever had the Storch as a flyable? Always fancied rescuing Mussolini from a landing spot the size of an Ant's lung.

 

 

Got Twilight as a Christmas gift to finish the trilogy, it's the best of them, it really goes into what the Japanese home islands were experiencing the last 6 months. 

[Muddy]

Yes the pacific would be ideal, however you will have to get it from (other sim outfit) first. Which is unfortunate as that will never be a compleat set of any organized plan. These guys won’t do it until they sell you fifteen more ME’s and a dozen more spits.

US medium bombers would be the bomb ( no pun intended) and I hope they can work it out.

I would believe the future here would be Poland or France early war, or something in the Med.

Its disheartening that they can’t do things now that they did 20 years ago. Carriers and such. 

[Props]

Eric Hammel does the Pacific well! I am currently reading his American Aces Speak series again, specifically Aces Against Japan books, for probably the 4th time or so. I'll have to read these 3 books as well now!  

[Irishratticus72]

16 minutes ago, Props said:

Eric Hammel does the Pacific well! I am currently reading his American Aces Speak series again, specifically Aces Against Japan books, for probably the 4th time or so. I'll have to read these 3 books as well now!  

Yeah, I first found him through his "Aces against Germany" book, then his "Aces against Japan" volumes. He also wrote a very good book on Chosin. 

Edited February 21, 2021 by Irishratticus72

[Props]

Yep, just re-read Aces against Germany again a month or so back. Think I'm going to dive into First Team and the Guadalcanal Campaign: Naval Fighter Combat from August to November 1942, by John B. Lundstrom next as it got mentioned a bunch in that great Drachinifel Zero video on Youtube. Also his book The First Team: Pacific Naval Air Combat from Pearl Harbor to Midway sounds good.

[BlitzPig_EL]

7 hours ago, Muddy said:

 

Its disheartening that they can’t do things now that they did 20 years ago. Carriers and such. 

 

Do remember that this development studio has nothing in common with Oleg's original IL2, Other than the name "IL2".  Also, it's good to remember that combat flight simulation is in a very different place than it was 20 years ago.   "We" used to be the top of the pecking order of computer gaming, PC testing magazines and websites used IL2 as a benchmark.  Graphics card manufacturers would tailor drivers just for IL2.

 

Then along came consoles, and that was that.  Vast numbers of console players dwarfed PC gaming, and flight simming became a niche backwater in the world of electronic entertainment.    If we had the numbers that Call of Duty, or EVE Online has, we would be awash in content, but, that simply isn't the case.

 

As players we must understand why things are as they are, and adjust our expectations accordingly.

[Irishratticus72]

1 hour ago, Props said:

Yep, just re-read Aces against Germany again a month or so back. Think I'm going to dive into First Team and the Guadalcanal Campaign: Naval Fighter Combat from August to November 1942, by John B. Lundstrom next as it got mentioned a bunch in that great Drachinifel Zero video on Youtube. Also his book The First Team: Pacific Naval Air Combat from Pearl Harbor to Midway sounds good.

Dude, stay out of my library! 

[Muddy]

3 hours ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

 

Do remember that this development studio has nothing in common with Oleg's original IL2, Other than the name "IL2".  Also, it's good to remember that combat flight simulation is in a very different place than it was 20 years ago.   "We" used to be the top of the pecking order of computer gaming, PC testing magazines and websites used IL2 as a benchmark.  Graphics card manufacturers would tailor drivers just for IL2.

 

Then along came consoles, and that was that.  Vast numbers of console players dwarfed PC gaming, and flight simming became a niche backwater in the world of electronic entertainment.    If we had the numbers that Call of Duty, or EVE Online has, we would be awash in content, but, that simply isn't the case.

 

As players we must understand why things are as they are, and adjust our expectations accordingly.

I have been around for quite some time and have seen the beginning and end of many flight sims, this one needs pacific if it want another 5-10 years. They are quickly running out of material. 
Also, they never said they couldn’t do the pacific rather they wouldn’t do it. Due to availability of technical documents and reference material.

I believe if you used the widely published data and first hand accounts on the performance of the equipment in question that you would be at a good enough spot to serve this community.

[Algy-Lacey]

3 hours ago, Muddy said:

I have been around for quite some time and have seen the beginning and end of many flight sims, this one needs pacific if it want another 5-10 years. They are quickly running out of material. 
Also, they never said they couldn’t do the pacific rather they wouldn’t do it. Due to availability of technical documents and reference material.

I believe if you used the widely published data and first hand accounts on the performance of the equipment in question that you would be at a good enough spot to serve this community.

 

I agree that this flight simulator needs to expand into different areas if it is going to keep on attracting customers. My view is that late war 44/45 eastern front is too similar to what we have. I think that the two best options for the game as it stands are either late war 43/44 Italy or mid war New Guinea. Both of these allow for development of new axis fighters (I'm thinking of the Italian Stallions, the Serie 5 fighters) (Or the famous  Ki43 Oscar and Ki61 Tony) this has been mentioned in other threads so I won't go over it again here.

 

For now, this simulator is a great representation of small scale tactical conflict and many people love it for what it is, especially being so great in VR. I'm one of them.

But for me, if this game is going to survive and continue to grow in different 'theatres of war' then it will need changes to the game engine itself, to usilise 4 or more CPU cores and thus be able to recreate massive air battles, big bomber formations and a large scale ground war. How can you represent the battle for Malta with current engine limitations? Or bombers over the Reich?

 

If they don't evolve the game engine then I'd like to see New Guinea or Italy next as I've said... But where are the bombers?!

[blue_max]

32 minutes ago, Algy-Lacey said:

 

I agree that this flight simulator needs to expand into different areas if it is going to keep on attracting customers. My view is that late war 44/45 eastern front is too similar to what we have. I think that the two best options for the game as it stands are either late war 43/44 Italy or mid war New Guinea. Both of these allow for development of new axis fighters (I'm thinking of the Italian Stallions, the Serie 5 fighters) (Or the famous  Ki43 Oscar and Ki61 Tony) this has been mentioned in other threads so I won't go over it again here.

 

For now, this simulator is a great representation of small scale tactical conflict and many people love it for what it is, especially being so great in VR. I'm one of them.

But for me, if this game is going to survive and continue to grow in different 'theatres of war' then it will need changes to the game engine itself, to usilise 4 or more CPU cores and thus be able to recreate massive air battles, big bomber formations and a large scale ground war. How can you represent the battle for Malta with current engine limitations? Or bombers over the Reich?

 

If they don't evolve the game engine then I'd like to see New Guinea or Italy next as I've said... But where are the bombers?!

I'm reading about the air war in New Guinea now. Courtesy of some friendly folks on this forum. That sounds like an amazing place for IL2 to go, even with the current engine.

[BraveSirRobin]

1 hour ago, Algy-Lacey said:

 

I agree that this flight simulator needs to expand into different areas if it is going to keep on attracting customers. My view is that late war 44/45 eastern front is too similar to what we have. 

 

It’s a Russian developer.  At some point we are absolutely getting late war Eastern front.

[Redwo1f]

Personally, I'd prefer to see Winter War or the Continuation War vs strict late war Eastern front - but maybe that's just me.  It would open the door to some very interesting aircraft on the Finnish side for sure (and also may be easier to cover if current plane offering per module model is maintained).

[BraveSirRobin]

2 minutes ago, Redwo1f said:

Personally, I'd prefer to see Winter War or the Continuation War vs strict late war Eastern front - but maybe that's just me.  It would open the door to some very interesting aircraft on the Finnish side for sure (and also may be easier to cover if current plane offering per module model is maintained).

It’s probably not just you.  But you’ll probably have to convince everyone else to pony up $5,000 to buy a copy or the developer is screwed.

 

 

[Redwo1f]

1 minute ago, BraveSirRobin said:

It’s probably not just you.  But you’ll probably have to convince everyone else to pony up $5,000 to buy a copy or the developer is screwed.

 

 

Well you may be right, idk. However, I am trying to understand the basis of your point. If you are contending that because it is a Russian developer, that therefore a late Eastern Front scenario will undoubtedly be constructed - then does not a Russo-Finnish conflict not also fit the bill in many respects? Or are you saying that it has to be the last iteration of Russian fighters which are only going to be the ones that are going to sell to eastern consumers?  I mean there are other aircraft involved (used by both air forces) -  wouldn't they be interesting too? --just looking for clarification, that's all   ...and we are certainly running out of German aircraft as well...

[BraveSirRobin]

7 minutes ago, Redwo1f said:

Well you may be right, idk. However, I am trying to understand the basis of your point. 

It’s a Russian developer and there are lots of Russian customers. Lots of flight simmers like to fly the best aircraft. Late Russian is the best Russian aircraft.  After BoS, BoM, and BoK they were in financial trouble.  That’s why they went right to late war Western front.  They knew that late war Allied and German aircraft would generate revenue.  Now we’ve got Normandy.  According to the developer it has done very well.  
 

Since they probably still need lots of revenue before they move on to Battle of No One Cares, do you think they’ll make more money from late VVS aircraft or Battle of No One Cares?

[Feathered_IV]

If western front is where they feel the money’s at, maybe the next chapter will be reusing the Normandy-channel map for 1941-43. Just without the bombers.