BOBP: Where are the bombers?

[InProgress]

Well, I don't think germany in 1944 and 1945 would be in any position to do any major bombing stuff. The entire luftwaffe was pretty much done for. Tho i wish for some additional planes, bf110 would be nice, G4 for doing night missions in career and maybe some bf210 (not saying in bodenplatte but overall).

[senseispcc]

Ok, I shall say it. The air superiority of the Allies on the western front from august 1944 until the end of the war was so great that the Axis air force could not hope to launch bombing raids bigger than hit and run individual or by pairs of planes.

More so than for the fighter force the fast majority of bombers was allocated to the east front. A other factor was the fact that nearly all the production, supplies, manpower where given to the fighter part of the Luftwaffe to defend the territories how more and more corresponded to the frontiers of the thousand years Reich.

And when the bridge over the Rein occurred and all bomber forced of the Germans where gathered on one point there was not much left. Yes, some Ar234 did try and miss. But it is like the Hs162 not one victory recorded! 

Edited May 19, 2018 by senseispcc

[JtD]

All true, which is why I consider Bodenplatte too boring to pre-order. Including some bomber would have been one way to make it an instant buy instead.

[RavN_Alienzo]

This is a million-strong discussion about heavy bombers. Devs have probably also made several speeches on this topic. Despite everything, you can see that there is a huge deficiency in the current simulators when it comes to large bombers. Since the time of the legendary B-17 Flying Fortress (which I keep playing from time to time), simulator fans can nowhere fulfill their wet dreams about a strategic bomber.

 

As for BoX or DCS, I always ask myself the subject of strategic bombers. How to use strategic bomber well on such small maps? In the old B-17 FF, we had at our disposal all of Western Europe, from France to the current Polish borders. Here we have 300x400 km. A bit crowded for strategic flights that took off from England and flew over the Reich.

 

In spite of everything, I have silent hopes that devs will one day break their hard hearts on this whine that wants big toys

Edited May 19, 2018 by AlienAlienzo

[Lusekofte]

Ye ye the jug had a good bomb load, we all know this. just is not the point. 

point is this is a effort to get more people to buy, it is filled with planes the developers think will bring them on. And by doing this sacrifice the old community once again . 

I can fully understand this choice, but seing the size of the map , to me it is even more painful not having bombers in the pack. No not painful , choice of wrong word. Once again I get this overwhelming feeling of what this game could have been, I will not be surprised if Pacific is abandoned all together and we have a new war thunder here

Edited May 19, 2018 by LuseKofte

[6./ZG26_Custard]

15 minutes ago, LuseKofte said:

we have a new war thunder here

Ehhhh no.

 

I am one of the many that long for heavy and medium bombers but it seems fairly clear why we don't have them in the sim ATM. The sheer time, effort and man-hours that would have to be expended to create quads is most likely mind boggling especially when modeled to a high standard and with a small team. I'm sure we also have to factor in engine limitations as well.

 

Maybe the team will continue to expand on  third party options? What we mustn't forgot though is flight sims are a niche market.

 

I sincerely hope that we end up with a flyable B-25 because as others have said, the map cries out for some dedicated bombers. When all is said and done BOX has moved forward with leaps and bounds, its an exciting time for the sim. Plus we have Tank Crews and Flying Circus to look forward to.  

 

Meanwhile I'll  wait  load up a P-38 or the Jug and avoid low flying Dora's!

[Diggun]

22 minutes ago, LuseKofte said:

point is this is a effort to get more people to buy, it is filled with planes the developers think will bring them on. And by doing this sacrifice the old community once again . 

Speak for yourself. I bought il2 in 2001 and every expansion. Even had birds of prey on the ps3. After a few years out of the game due to an ill advised Mac fixation I am firmly back in the fold. And I am entirely happy with the directon the game is going. Sure, there's some stuff I would like to see - mozzie, hurricane, tiffy- but the razor focus on tactical air combat suits me fine. I would consider myself a member of the old community (perhaps not as vocal as some I can think of), but personally have very little interest in the Pacific or hunting 4 engined heavies. 

 

Tl/dr: just because you want something doesn't mean everyone else does. Angry rhetoric looks silly

[Haza]

Although I appreciate what you are trying to say LuseKofte, from my experience in MP with Cliffs and BOS, very few players actually bother with the current multi-engine bombers, although the Pe-2 for various reasons is always very popular.  Therefore, I personally do not believe that having a flyable 4 engine bomber is going to draw in the masses as perhaps you might believe.  It is a pity however, that we can't have 4 engine AI bombers to simulate high altitude bombing runs which require human escorts (aircraft and not the ladies) to defend the formation as they are attacked by scores of Me262s and FW190s.  Indeed if this AI ability could be used in MP, similar to the way that AI formations were generated in SOW then that might work, as other wise I would be concerned that the Me262A-1a will just become the new hangar queen in the game. 

 

However, although there were heavy bombers used towards the end of the war, I see the fun in having CAS type scenarios, hopefully utilising the new human tanks that might be generated to have one big air/ground war.

 

That said, I can never understand why you always seem to have such a doom and gloom out look with just about anything that is discussed regarding BOx.  Therefore, let's just see what happens before we bring out the Grim-reaper on either Bodenplatte or indeed Pacific.

 

Regards

[DD_Arthur]

41 minutes ago, LuseKofte said:

Ye ye the jug had a good bomb load, we all know this. just is not the point. 

point is this is a effort to get more people to buy, it is filled with planes the developers think will bring them on. And by doing this sacrifice the old community once again . 

I can fully understand this choice, but seing the size of the map , to me it is even more painful not having bombers in the pack. No not painful , choice of wrong word. Once again I get this overwhelming feeling of what this game could have been, I will not be surprised if Pacific is abandoned all together and we have a new war thunder here

 

Usual self-indulgent rambling bollox.......

[Haza]

Just now, DD_Arthur said:

 

Usual self-indulgent rambling bollox.......

 

Is that said with a Cornish or Devonshire accent?

[Lusekofte]

25 minutes ago, DD_Arthur said:

Usual self-indulgent rambling bollox.......

 

Yeah I knew you would going to say that. Still think this is the best ww2 sim. But that is because there is no other in production. 

But your response shows what kind of community this is

[7.GShAP/Silas]

Flying ground attack in Bodenplatte is going to be a ton of fun.  I know you have your heart set on larger bombers, but there is a whole world of CAS and strike operations to be enjoyed with this planeset.  Attacking a vital target with the bomber variant of the Me 262 is going to be an awesome experience.

[sevenless]

4 hours ago, senseispcc said:

Ok, I shall say it. The air superiority of the Allies on the western front from august 1944 until the end of the war was so great that the Axis air force could not hope to launch bombing raids bigger than hit and run individual or by pairs of planes.

 

 

True. Therefore they did night raids. Nachtschlachtgeschwader and Nachschlachtgruppen were invented for that reason. 

[DD_Arthur]

1 hour ago, LuseKofte said:

 

Yeah I knew you would going to say that. Still think this is the best ww2 sim. But that is because there is no other in production. 

But your response shows what kind of community this is

 

You knew I was going to say that?  Lol.  You flatter me but not nearly as much as you flatter yourself - as usual.

I'm not sure what king of 'community' this is and I care even less but if you don't like it I'd advise you to simply leave. 

[=27=Davesteu]

Impressive 1/3 ratio of topic related posts in this thread....
===============================================

In my opinion there is no reason discussing heavy bombers right now. The map we get might be the largest yet, still it isn't big enough for heavy bombers.
Even the very few remaining parts of Luftwaffe Kampfgeschwader operating medium bombers in the scenario were largely based outsite of the BoBP map.
They would only allow for rather uninteresting and inconsistent campaigns but require new aircraft models, mainly thinking about the Ju 88 S here.
As much as I'm into bomber/attack aircraft, oddities and rarities - it would probably not be worth the aircraft left out instead.

 

21 minutes ago, sevenless said:

Nachtschlachtgeschwader

...did not exist.

20 minutes ago, sevenless said:

Nachschlachtgruppen were invented for that reason

No they were not and they also already existed.

[[DBS]El_Marta]

I hope for the two engined stuff (B26, A26, Mosquito, Arado234, B25 ) to be implemented as collector planes once the base game is released.

[sevenless]

1 hour ago, =27=Davesteu said:

 

...did not exist.

 

Kurt Dahlmann (4 March 1918 – 29 August 2017)

711th Oak Leaves on 24 January 1945 as Major and Geschwaderkommodore of Nachtschlachtgeschwader 20

 

What is it? NSG = Nachtschlachtgeschwader; NSGr = Nachtschlachtgruppe. Maybe you can bring some light into the dark?

Edited May 19, 2018 by sevenless

[Lusekofte]

27 minutes ago, DD_Arthur said:

I'd advise you to simply leave. 

 

Your advise is very kind. but I can choose to use and try to influence game as much as you can . You know one can support a game and still not agree in the games road ahead.  I hope you understand that the world is not black and white. And your opinion is not the one keeping the universe together.

If you urge to quote me one more time,  let me advice you to use the convenient option of private message instead

Edited May 19, 2018 by LuseKofte

[7.GShAP/Silas]

32 minutes ago, 2nd_Lt_Trotsky said:

But then in SP I get crashes when I toggle HUD, and in MP I generally go do something else when I get the black screen crash trying to join a server as I can't be bothered risking it happening time and time again.

 

 

 

Whenever I get the black screen loading in to a server in MP I just Alt-F4 and load the game back up, works every time and only takes me like 20 seconds.  Patience when dealing with this kind of stuff is really just part of the price of admission after big updates.

[xvii-Dietrich]

2 hours ago, Haza said:

 {...} from my experience in MP with Cliffs and BOS, very few players actually bother with the current multi-engine bombers, although the Pe-2 for various reasons is always very popular.  Therefore, I personally do not believe that having a flyable 4 engine bomber is going to draw in the masses as perhaps you might believe. {...}

 

There were no shortage of large bomber raids in Cliffs. Week-in week out, we'd consistently put up 15+ human-piloted level bomber formations and fly in at 5 to 7 km altitude. Even more for the big raids, like Redhill, Biggin, Farnborough, Cowley, Manston, Kenley, Wilmington, Portsmouth, Woolston or Brooklands (example). There were multiple dedicated bomber squads, E69, KG40, Stab/KG53, XVII-Fliegerkorps, 129.StG, etc. not to mention loads of lone-wolf bombers that would team up with us for specific raids.

 

The difference is that the environment (in fact the entire premise) was bomber-centric. It begins with a bomber campaign and the fighter defence is built against it. The starting point is the Ju 88, the He 111 and the Stuka. Then there is reconnaissance, then radar, then interdiction and then... and only then, come the dog fights between the escorts and the defenders. Ground attack was virtually non-existent.

 

The BoX environment is totally different. As many have pointed out, they are built on tactical close air-support, which brings fighters and fighter-bombers into direct conflict and at low altitude. Adding a high-alt, mass-formation level-bomber as an "afterthought collector plane" will not work. It needs an entire bomber focus for the entire theatre, such as Adlertag or Unternehmen Herkules.

 

I totally agree with you Haza that simply putting in a 4-engined heavy in isolation will not draw the masses. It will end up as a novelty and will not result in the paradigm shift that others are hoping for. And I suspect it will not result in the sales needed by the developers to sustain the IL2 series.

 

[=27=Davesteu]

1 hour ago, sevenless said:

Err what ? Where do you get this fake news from?

 

So this guy operated a fake unit?:

Kurt Dahlmann (4 March 1918 – 29 August 2017)
711th Oak Leaves on 24 January 1945 as Major and Geschwaderkommodore of Nachtschlachtgeschwader 20

"fake news" & "fake unit" - Sorry but I can't take this kind of formulation serious.

 

Vice versa: where do you get your information from? It could be as wrong as my statement.
Do the research, which I did, and you will see there are simply only Nachtschgruppen. In old books from decades ago indeed the authors sometimes called them "Nachtschlachtgeschwader", but this has since been proven incorrect and refuted for a long time. Maybe your text is based on this outdated information.

Edited May 19, 2018 by =27=Davesteu

[sevenless]

6 minutes ago, =27=Davesteu said:

"fake news" & "fake unit" - Sorry but I can't take this kind of formulation serious.

 

Vice versa: where do you get your information from? It could be as wrong as my statement.
Do the research, which I did, and you will see there are simply only Nachtschgruppen. In old books from decades ago indeed the authors sometimes called them "Nachtschlachtgeschwader", but this has since been proven incorrect and revised for a long time. Maybe your text is based on this outdated information.

 

Sorry,

yes I stand corrected. There seems to be a lot of fake news present and I indeed seem to have fallen into that trap. After having dug deeper those mentioned Nachtschlachtgeschwader (NSG) seems to be all Nachtschlachtgruppen (NSGr).

So, my apologies to you.

Edited May 19, 2018 by sevenless

[seafireliv]

I really find it distasteful when someone makes a suggestion or has an opinion that is very slightly critical and all the members dive down on the one guy for his `wrong think`. Please stop it.

 

 

[chris455]

On 5/17/2018 at 9:37 PM, 7.GShAP/Silas said:

 

 

An Ar234 really would be a great addition.

 

I think something Bodenplatte could shine in would be interesting targets like V1/V2 rocket complexes.  I can't recall how much of the North Sea is included, but maybe U-Boat complexes were on the map.  In the context of the operations represented, there are a lot of really cool possibilities for ground attack and Reich Defense.

THIS.

[LukeFF]

2 hours ago, seafireliv said:

I really find it distasteful when someone makes a suggestion or has an opinion that is very slightly critical and all the members dive down on the one guy for his `wrong think`. Please stop it.

 

Please show where that's happened.

[seafireliv]

1 hour ago, LukeFF said:

 

Please show where that's happened.

No. Look for yourself.

[danielprates]

I read many comments on why medium bombers are not a part of this new expansion,  some reasonable,  but "there were no medium bombers in bodenplatte" is not a good reason. By now its clear that bodenplatte is just a name and that we are basically covering the last semester or so of the air war in the west. There sure is some room there for larger planes than just CAS. As I see it though, the main issue is where those planes were based. I dont have the data but I imagine no B26s or B25s were transfered to bases on the continent,  or were they? Heavies sure remained based in england till the end. Were there medium bombers transfered to bases in france at least?

[sevenless]

13 minutes ago, danielprates said:

As I see it though, the main issue is where those planes were based. I dont have the data but I imagine no B26s or B25s were transfered to bases on the continent,  or were they? 

 

They were. By example A26 Intruders were flying from St. Trond or Florennes in Belgium. Mitchel II and IIIs from Melsbroek and many more from a lot of airstrips on the continent in France Belgium or the Netherlands which are all on the map. So the argument you mentioned above is void except for the heavies, but those are out of the scope of this game anyways. 

[Sharpe43]

9 minutes ago, danielprates said:

I read many comments on why medium bombers are not a part of this new expansion,  some reasonable,  but "there were no medium bombers in bodenplatte" is not a good reason. By now its clear that bodenplatte is just a name and that we are basically covering the last semester or so of the air war in the west. There sure is some room there for larger planes than just CAS. As I see it though, the main issue is where those planes were based. I dont have the data but I imagine no B26s or B25s were transfered to bases on the continent,  or were they? Heavies sure remained based in england till the end. Were there medium bombers transfered to bases in france at least?

hmm..it would seem the 9th AF had a gaggle of B26 groups on airfields in both France and Belgium. 2nd TAF had a number of B25 squadrons on the continent. At least 2 of which were apparently at Melsbroek..  

[ShamrockOneFive]

23 minutes ago, Sharpe43 said:

hmm..it would seem the 9th AF had a gaggle of B26 groups on airfields in both France and Belgium. 2nd TAF had a number of B25 squadrons on the continent. At least 2 of which were apparently at Melsbroek..  

 

Indeed they did! Quite a few. Two wings of B-26s and one wing of A-20/A-26. I looked it up a couple of days ago. So medium bombers are definitely within the historical scope of Battle of Bodenplatte. It's more of a developer time and resources issue holding these back.

 

The B-26 may be a bridge too far right now for the team and the Mitchell may also be ... But I proposed in another thread that the A-20G/J combo might work to bring some sort of bomber to the mix as a future Collector Plane idea building on a type that they have already created.

 

Edited May 19, 2018 by ShamrockOneFive

[sevenless]

2 minutes ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

The B-26 may be a bridge too far right now for the team and the Mitchell may also be ... But I proposed in another thread that the A-20G/J combo might work to bring some sort of bomber to the mix as a future Collector Plane idea building on a type that they have already created.

 

Exactly. Low effort for the developers for a high gain in gameplay versatility. Too good of a chance to let that slip. We will see them, I´m pretty convinced.

[Haza]

8 hours ago, xvii-Dietrich said:

 

There were no shortage of large bomber raids in Cliffs. Week-in week out, we'd consistently put up 15+ human-piloted level bomber formations and fly in at 5 to 7 km altitude. Even more for the big raids, like Redhill, Biggin, Farnborough, Cowley, Manston, Kenley, Wilmington, Portsmouth, Woolston or Brooklands (example). There were multiple dedicated bomber squads, E69, KG40, Stab/KG53, XVII-Fliegerkorps, 129.StG, etc. not to mention loads of lone-wolf bombers that would team up with us for specific raids.

 

The difference is that the environment (in fact the entire premise) was bomber-centric. It begins with a bomber campaign and the fighter defence is built against it. The starting point is the Ju 88, the He 111 and the Stuka. Then there is reconnaissance, then radar, then interdiction and then... and only then, come the dog fights between the escorts and the defenders. Ground attack was virtually non-existent.

 

The BoX environment is totally different. As many have pointed out, they are built on tactical close air-support, which brings fighters and fighter-bombers into direct conflict and at low altitude. Adding a high-alt, mass-formation level-bomber as an "afterthought collector plane" will not work. It needs an entire bomber focus for the entire theatre, such as Adlertag or Unternehmen Herkules.

 

I totally agree with you Haza that simply putting in a 4-engined heavy in isolation will not draw the masses. It will end up as a novelty and will not result in the paradigm shift that others are hoping for. And I suspect it will not result in the sales needed by the developers to sustain the IL2 series.

 

Dietrich,

I do recall raids in Clifs and indeed I would regularly join xvii as an extra and remembered your squads frustration at the lack of escort and perhaps more of the TAB-71 issues. Now I remember a few big human formations in MP but they were usually during a "one off " organised get together and not the usual MP norm.  The rest of the time in my time zone I would be lucky to see no more than 4/5 of your squad, perhaps 022 and always 69th Red-Hawk in a Blennie, however we could agree/disagree all day about the numbers.

However, I believe that having an ability to generate Ai bombers might perhaps bring that real WW2 feeling to BOx in MP and I'm sure that Jason's team will eventually make a 4 engine happen. That said I'm reading about the Me262 being able to out turn a P-51 by maintaining speed and using flaps, so for me the 262 will still have its day even without the bomber formations.

 

 

As ever Dietrich, always a pleasure discussing with you

 

[danielprates]

2 hours ago, sevenless said:

 

They were. By example A26 Intruders were flying from St. Trond or Florennes in Belgium. Mitchel II and IIIs from Melsbroek and many more from a lot of airstrips on the continent in France Belgium or the Netherlands which are all on the map.

2 hours ago, Sharpe43 said:

hmm..it would seem the 9th AF had a gaggle of B26 groups on airfields in both France and Belgium. 2nd TAF had a number of B25 squadrons on the continent. At least 2 of which were apparently at Melsbroek..  

 

 

Well it would make sense then to eventually model some american medium! 

 

Was the A20, which we already have,  used over there in the west? Although I say,  something new would be preferable,  my vote going for the Marauder. I would pay a good money for a Marauder!

[sevenless]

53 minutes ago, danielprates said:

 

Well it would make sense then to eventually model some american medium! 

 

Was the A20, which we already have,  used over there in the west? Although I say,  something new would be preferable,  my vote going for the Marauder. I would pay a good money for a Marauder!

 

B26 ans A26 seems not to be on their priority list. However since we have still 12 to 15 month until release, they might come up with a surprise or two. They didn´t disappoint with their past releases and I´m pretty sure they won´t with their future releases.  

[ShamrockOneFive]

1 hour ago, danielprates said:

 

Well it would make sense then to eventually model some american medium! 

 

Was the A20, which we already have,  used over there in the west? Although I say,  something new would be preferable,  my vote going for the Marauder. I would pay a good money for a Marauder!

 

As I said above... the A-20G/J are the best bet seeing as there's at least good commonality with the A-20B that we already have. It was definitely used and in good numbers by both USAAF and the RAF (the A-20J was the Boston Mark IV) and the G and J are mostly interchangeable with a different nose. They even flew them on joint missions with the A-20J and its Norden bombsight being used to direct solid nose A-20Gs to drop bombs on command.

 

The B -26 is absolutely fascinating to me but a harder sell because its mostly (with a few exceptions) a Western Europe only aircraft. The B-25 is an easier sell with RAF service in Western Europe and a ton of use in the Pacific just about anywhere you could base a medium bomber.

[sevenless]

1 hour ago, danielprates said:

 

Well it would make sense then to eventually model some american medium! 

 

Was the A20, which we already have,  used over there in the west? Although I say,  something new would be preferable,  my vote going for the Marauder. I would pay a good money for a Marauder!

Oh and I forgot to mention, if you are interested to know which type of planes where used and shot down at which time of the day by the 2ndTAF in the relevant time period:

 

Bf 110s, Ju 87s, 88s, 188s, He 219s and some more.

 

and who had a significant impact? You guessed it the Mossie in various incarnations. You can read it up here: 

 

[danielprates]

20 minutes ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

 

 

The B -26 is absolutely fascinating to me but a harder sell because its mostly (with a few exceptions) a Western Europe only aircraft. The B-25 is an easier sell with RAF service in Western Europe and a ton of use in the Pacific just about anywhere you could base a medium bomber.

 

Yep it makes sense. I've been reading about it appearing as an AI plane and further down the road becoming a flyable. Is that more than just a rumor for now?

[Gambit21]

AI at first, flyable later if resources allow.

Not promised.

[ShamrockOneFive]

1 hour ago, danielprates said:

 

Yep it makes sense. I've been reading about it appearing as an AI plane and further down the road becoming a flyable. Is that more than just a rumor for now?

 

As Gambit says, its not promised but there was some strategic thinking about it. The Mitchell II coming in Bodenplatte as an AI plane is a B-25C. The B-25C was used through nearly the whole war both Pacific and in Europe (both east and west too). So, if they do decide to invest resources to build a multi-station medium bomber of some considerable complexity, the B-25 Mitchel is the ideal candidate in terms of getting bang for the buck.

[hames123]

B-26s would also be good.