Spitfire Landing

[dburne]

16 minutes ago, RedKestrel said:

Its worth noting that the I-16 has toe brakes, so not all Russian planes use the lever. I believe the rest of them use the lever though.

Question...is it possible to bind the toe brake axis to the brake lever, or is it simply an on/off thing for braking pressure?

 

If your lever is an axis, then it can be assigned to an axis.

[LukeFF]

2 hours ago, RedKestrel said:

Question...is it possible to bind the toe brake axis to the brake lever, or is it simply an on/off thing for braking pressure?

 

Yes, if you do that, both brakes will be depressed equally, until you make a turn.

2 hours ago, RedKestrel said:

Its worth noting that the I-16 has toe brakes, so not all Russian planes use the lever. I believe the rest of them use the lever though.

 

Correct, and the American planes also use toe brakes. On the Axis side, the MC202 uses a single handbrake, a la the Spitfire.

[RedKestrel]

1 hour ago, LukeFF said:

 

Yes, if you do that, both brakes will be depressed equally, until you make a turn.

 

Correct, and the American planes also use toe brakes. On the Axis side, the MC202 uses a single handbrake, a la the Spitfire.

OK, thanks. I've gotten used to landing the I-16 with the toe brakes so I'd like to keep using them.

[No601_Swallow]

Gotta say (just contributing to the discussion):

 

I land the Spitfire with about 5% throttle (if I've cut throttle completely on finals, I nudge it up after touch-down) - but I think this is superstition. I think the thing that helps me with the Spitfire, is just holding my finger CONTINUOUSLY on the brake key (whatever I've assigned), and then using the rudder pedals to "assign" braking power to each wheel as necessary to correct any drift. This seems far more influential than rudder authority on its own. 

 

Honestly: never fails in the Spitfire. I'm rubbish at landing most planes (although the German ones allow me to assign differential braking to my twist axis on my joystick - super-intuitive!), but I almost never muck up a Spitfire landing. And I think it's mostly because of the braking system - holding down the lever and then letting the position of the rudder pedals "channel" hydraulic  pressure to each wheel.

Edited May 4, 2018 by No601_Swallow

[taffy2jeffmorgan]

Pick a good wide grass field [ Anapa, Kuban spring ] to practice, its all to do with approach speed, decrease speed to drop your flaps and under carriage and then adjust speed to compensate for all the drag with these all down. you should be touching down at about 90-100 mph, stick right back and then just slight rudder to correct and let the Spit roll to a stop. good luck.

 

 

[DD_Arthur]

3 hours ago, taffy2jeffmorgan said:

Pick a good wide grass field [ Anapa, Kuban spring ] to practice, its all to do with approach speed, decrease speed to drop your flaps and under carriage and then adjust speed to compensate for all the drag with these all down. you should be touching down at about 90-100 mph, stick right back and then just slight rudder to correct and let the Spit roll to a stop. good luck.

 

Agree with Jeff.   I don't see the need to pile on the brakes.  Just let it roll out on the runway after landing.

[ShugNinx]

On 04/05/2018 at 8:40 PM, RedKestrel said:

Question...is it possible to bind the toe brake axis to the brake lever, or is it simply an on/off thing for braking pressure?

 

Didn't try but was also wondering about that. Wouldn't it ruin the toe brakes abilities (left/right braking asymmetry) on planes fitted with both toe brakes and general brake lever ? (if any ?)

 

On 05/05/2018 at 7:08 AM, taffy2jeffmorgan said:

 you should be touching down at about 90-100 mph, stick right back and then just slight rudder to correct and let the Spit roll to a stop. good luck.

 

Well in that situation I'm always caught into a turn and grinding a wingtip...

 

On 05/05/2018 at 1:23 AM, No601_Swallow said:

I think the thing that helps me with the Spitfire, is just holding my finger CONTINUOUSLY on the brake key (whatever I've assigned), and then using the rudder pedals to "assign" braking power to each wheel as necessary to correct any drift. [...] And I think it's mostly because of the braking system - holding down the lever and then letting the position of the rudder pedals "channel" hydraulic  pressure to each wheel.

 

Are you sure about this ? Reading the above posts, it seems like the spit doesn't allow differential braking... Don't have the time right now, but definitely will give this a try.

Edited May 6, 2018 by ShugNinx

[JimTM]

57 minutes ago, ShugNinx said:

 

Didn't try but was also wondering about that. Wouldn't it ruin the toe brakes abilities (left/right braking asymmetry) on planes fitted with both toe brakes and general brake lever ? (if any ?)

        Yes, you can bind a toe brake axis to the brake lever but it interferes with the left/right toe brake system of planes like the Me 109. For example, if you bind the right toe brake to "Wheel Brakes", then you lose the ability to apply the right brake in the Me 109 (instead, the right brake applies both brakes).

 

Well in that situation I'm always caught into a turn and grinding a wingtip...

 

 

Are you sure about this ? Reading the above posts, it seems like the spit doesn't allow differential braking... Don't have the time right now, but definitely will give this a try.

        The Spit allows differential braking. Apply the brakes and press right rudder to go right and left rudder to go left. The amount of rudder that you apply determines how much brake pressure is applied to the direction that you apply the rudder. 

 

Edited May 6, 2018 by JimTM

[ShugNinx]

39 minutes ago, JimTM said:

 

        Yes, you can bind a toe brake axis to the brake lever but it interferes with the left/right toe brake system of planes like the Me 109. For example, if you bind the right toe brake to "Wheel Brakes", then you lose the ability to apply the right brake in the Me 109 (instead, the right brake applies both brakes).

I was actually thinking the other way around : binding the Wheel brakes to both left and right toes of my rudder pedals.

 

39 minutes ago, JimTM said:

      The Spit allows differential braking. Apply the brakes and press right rudder to go right and left rudder to go left. The amount of rudder that you apply determines how much brake pressure is applied to the direction that you apply the rudder. 

Nice ! Thanks for the precisions.

[JimTM]

10 minutes ago, ShugNinx said:

I was actually thinking the other way around : binding the Wheel brakes to both left and right toes of my rudder pedals.

 

...

 

If you bind "Wheel Brake" to the left and right toe brakes, that would eliminate the ability to steer planes like the Me 109 because pressing either brake pedal would apply both brakes. In a plane like the Spitfire, either brake pedal would apply the brake lever and then you could apply rudder to steer the plane.

Edited May 6, 2018 by JimTM

[T_oll]

Make a wheel brake handle

 

 

[ShugNinx]

4 hours ago, T_oll said:

Make a wheel brake handle

Nice ! 

 

Not ready to invest in such hardware though...

 

4 hours ago, JimTM said:

 

If you bind "Wheel Brake" to the left and right toe brakes, that would eliminate the ability to steer planes like the Me 109 because pressing either brake pedal would apply both brakes. In a plane like the Spitfire, either brake pedal would apply the brake lever and then you could apply rudder to steer the plane.

Yeah that was the whole point of my first question... Thanks for confirming my doubts, I'll try and assign a dedicated button or axe to the main wheel brake.

 

Edited May 6, 2018 by ShugNinx

[danielprates]

On 03/05/2018 at 5:44 AM, 56RAF_Roblex said:

Many people suggest braking very gently at first then heavier when you have lost more speed but personally I brake 100% from the start on the basis of 'I need to be at walking pace ASAP then I do not need to worry about ground loops'.  I don't find that heavy braking increases my chances of deviating.

 

Thats my technique too. Of course,  you must break-and-release-and-break-and-release to avoid turning over,  but killing your speed asap is important. And as stated above,  the slower you touch down,  the better. 

 

Its probably all to do with practice. I came to BoX from Il2 1946 and there everything was much easier,  but only because the flight model was not that accurate. My first few months in BoX saw one crash landing after the other. But over time I got it right, by learning methods that were not necessary in il2 1946. For instance,  if a given plane has differential brakes,  lockable tailwheel or some other unique stearing mechanic (like the fw190 ans the p40),  you have to be acquainted with it and use it accordingly. Some planes just grab the ground like velcro,  others require positive and decided rudder/brake commands almost up until you are stopped. In sum,  all planes are different,  some easier or harder to land than others. That is resolved by practice,  and nothing else!

 

The spit have one hell of a set of flaps. You should be able to land very slowly with it. Are you landind too heavy?  Are you practicing landings right before taking off,  but forgetting that you are taking off with full tanks? Try setting up your plane in a practice flight,  with only a 15% or so fuel load. Remember, max takeoff weight can be,  say,  1/3 heavier than empty weight,  and planes in general are not intended to be brought back with full tanks,  ammo and ordnance!

Edited May 6, 2018 by danielprates

[RothbardVso1*3]

From Budd Davisson, a taildragger instructor with decades of experience http://www.airbum.com/articles/ArticleTailwheelTraining.html,

 

"It only takes a few trips around the pattern before any student or pilot figures out that his life is a trillion percent easier if he or she plants it on the runway at minimum speed, with all three gear touching (wheel landings are another story), with the tail directly behind the nose and with no drift. If that's done, practically all tailwheel airplanes will roll straight except for gently trying to weathervane into the wind. If it's put on crooked or drifting, it'll start swerving the instant it touches. Like we said, the airplane, not the instructor, tells you it's a good idea to do it right.

 

What happens almost immediately is that the student/pilot starts to notice little things he never noticed before. For one thing, he'll start seeing what the nose is actually doing just prior to touch down. Tiny little drift angles he never saw in his Cessna/Piper/Beech now assume gargantuan proportions. After touchdown, for the first few hours of practice, the nose will have to move a fair amount sideways before he sees it and corrects. After just a little practice, he'll catch the nose movement the instant it starts and, in so doing, again make his life much easier. In other words, his visual acuity gets much better. He's seeing more of what's happening in the windshield."

 

http://bearhawkin.com/Planetbearhawk.html#How To Groundloop Your Taildragger

 

This is a funny little read, I suspect also by Budd, which treats groundloops as aerobatic maneuvers; remember, it's satire, so do the opposite.

 

"On the approach, keep it low and fast. If the airplane lands at 50, cross the fence at 100. It's best not to have a planned touchdown point because that can interfere with the free-spirited nature of the flying event. Start fanning the rudders through 500 feet, and keep it going until you've cleared the runway. The fanning technique is to let the airplane know who's boss. Get the plane down to the runway as soon as possible, and force it to land with plenty of forward stick. The fast-landing method is good for all weather conditions, especially quartering tail-winds. Once the plane is firmly on the ground, let go of the stick, but keep fanning the rudder to cool the tail-wheel assembly."