Spitfire Landing

[BadBud]

Landing the Spitfire without scrapping a wingtip is near impossible for me and from BoS videos I have seen, it is the same for other Spitfire pilots as well. Other sims, not a problem with the Spit. Has anyone solved the problem and if so, what is the answer?

Thanks,

BadBud

[JimTM]

See this post and this post.

 

Also see the following:

Essay, PART 1: Why taildraggers are tricky and how to overcome it!

Essay, PART 2: Getting the tail up...

Essay, PART 3: Landing and stopping.

Edited May 3, 2018 by JimTM

[56RAF_Roblex]

Why are you scraping a wing?   You landed with wings level.    I can only assume you are failing to keep it straight while you slow down or you are trying to turn while still going too fast.

 

There is no solution to the first other than 'Try Harder'     Not much I can say to expand on that other than other than to suggest you concentrate hard on catching any movement fast because once it goes beyond a certain point it is irrecoverable.  Many people suggest braking very gently at first then heavier when you have lost more speed but personally I brake 100% from the start on the basis of 'I need to be at walking pace ASAP then I do not need to worry about ground loops'.  I don't find that heavy braking increases my chances of deviating.

 

That leads on to the solution to the second possible cause. Do not attempt to make any sort of turn beyond a few degrees until you are down to a fast walking pace.   Think of any air display you have been to.  How fast were those spits taxiing out?  Walking pace.

 

One last tip that might help.  You say no other sim makes it as hard to land a spitfire and I disagree as the spit in DCS is much twitchier.  With most aircraft I chop the throttle when I land but with the DCS Spit  I always make sure to keep some throttle on (20%?) as I land and slow down and that makes it easier to keep it straight.

Edited May 3, 2018 by 56RAF_Roblex

[Herne]

if you hold off for as long as you can and let the plane stall the last few inches onto the ground, by this time you are going really slow. keep the stick right back until you stop or have achieved your taxi speed.

You might need to jab the rudder now and again to keep it straight, and you can use the brake + rudder if you need extra authority, but keep that stick back.

[56RAF_Roblex]

17 minutes ago, =FEW=Herne said:

if you hold off for as long as you can and let the plane stall the last few inches onto the ground, by this time you are going really slow. keep the stick right back until you stop or have achieved your taxi speed.

You might need to jab the rudder now and again to keep it straight, and you can use the brake + rudder if you need extra authority, but keep that stick back.

 

Good point.  Touch down at 80 and you will have a lot less trouble than landing at 100.

[dburne]

It takes some time and practice, but once one gets the hang of it, good landings can be had without scraping up the wingtips.

I brake gently and stay ahead of the plane, if the nose ever starts to veer much to one side it is over by then.

 

I usually can get good clean landings the majority of the time now. 

[MicEzo]

7 hours ago, BadBud said:

it is the same for other Spitfire pilots as well. Other sims, not a problem with the Spit.

Other sims?

• In DCS? There is the same problem, Spit with it's very narrow undercarriage is unstable on the ground and require a lot of attention after touchdown, if you're not focused you're going to scrap the wingtip.
• In War Thunder Sim? WT Sim has artificial stability assist on the ground (during all; taxi, takeoff, landing) so yes, in WT you don't have to be careful after touchdown

Just compare, seeing that narrow undercarriage you can expect the trouble in many forms on the ground

 

Have a nice landings

Edited May 3, 2018 by MicEzo

[dburne]

Just now, MicEzo said:

Other sims?

• In DCS? There is the same problem, Spit with it's very narrow gear is unstable and require a lot of attention after touchdown, if you're not focused you're going to scrap the wingtip.

 

Agree I find the Spit ground handling to be a little better in BoX myself.

[Trooper117]

Try to make sure you 'touch down' at 80-85mph (stalling speed)... that is about the only way I can get the Spit down with a reasonable chance of not ground looping,  and even then it will ground loop on occasion...

I think the main problem is that large and very effective rudder... if you push it just a gnat's knacker too much you are going to end up with a ground loop 

[D3adCZE]

Land it like a 190A, slowly approach runway, flare out and hold it few feet above the runway in 3 point attitude. It will stall and you will fall on all 3 wheels at minimal speed. This works for everything. HE111, Yaks, 109s, 190s, Lalas etc. Pe2 can be little tricky, because they always fall on the nose in my hand :D

[Trooper117]

Yes, the Pe-2 was well known for it's difficult landing qualities...

[unreasonable]

35 minutes ago, CSAF-D3adCZE said:

Land it like a 190A, slowly approach runway, flare out and hold it few feet above the runway in 3 point attitude. It will stall and you will fall on all 3 wheels at minimal speed. This works for everything. HE111, Yaks, 109s, 190s, Lalas etc. Pe2 can be little tricky, because they always fall on the nose in my hand :D

 

Please no.... a few inches! Spitfires do not like being dropped.

[D3adCZE]

1 minute ago, unreasonable said:

 

Please no.... a few inches! Spitfires do not like being dropped.

Can you record such landing please? I am rather interested whether those are inches or feet.

[Herne]

VR makes judging distance much easier and more natural though

 

I ran out of fuel, started recording because I knew it would be touch and go if I was going to make it to the airfield. I drop the flaps late to maintain the best glide for as long as I can, which means I have to do a bit more in the way of corrections than i otherwise would.

Edited May 3, 2018 by =FEW=Herne

[-TBC-AeroAce]

Start flare at 100mph and stall it on the the ground softly.  It can take a little bit of a drop if you miss judge it but it is not a nice sound. The key to not scrapping a wing is to be all over the breaks and rudder. If it yaws more than a handful of degrees to any side it is too late and you can't save it. 

 

For me spit is very easy to land and I can get it to stop in the shortest distance of any plane. I often land on the parking to save time lol.

Edited May 3, 2018 by AeroAce

[DD_Arthur]

10 hours ago, BadBud said:

Landing the Spitfire without scrapping a wingtip is near impossible for me and from BoS videos I have seen, it is the same for other Spitfire pilots as well. Other sims, not a problem with the Spit. Has anyone solved the problem and if so, what is the answer?

Thanks,

BadBud

 

Spitfire is one of the easiest planes to land in the whole sim.  Just make sure approach and landing speeds are correct, wings level and no problem!

 

   

 

 

 

[T_oll]

I think the Spit, and taildraggers in general, got better in this regard, quite recently...

Narrow track taildraggers, like the Spit or Me, are tricky on the ground. They are prone to groundlooping, which usually ends in a wing scraping the runway.

I used to have a problem with it, but after the latest update (or the one before), things got easier. Still not «easy», but easier

[-TBC-AeroAce]

12 minutes ago, T_oll said:

I think the Spit, and taildraggers in general, got better in this regard, quite recently...

Narrow track taildraggers, like the Spit or Me, are tricky on the ground. They are prone to groundlooping, which usually ends in a wing scraping the runway.

I used to have a problem with it, but after the latest update (or the one before), things got easier. Still not «easy», but easier

Nothing has changed you are just getting better! !!

[Cpt_Cool]

1 hour ago, =FEW=Herne said:

ran out of fuel, started recording because I knew it would be touch and go

 

If you were out of fuel, I think you would have trouble with the "go" part of touch and go.

[T_oll]

4 minutes ago, AeroAce said:

Nothing has changed you are just getting better! !!

 

It’s a nice thought..

But I hear others claim the same. And I hadn’t flown for a couple of weeks, and there was an update in between, so I think something has changed. To the better.

[Trooper117]

I have never had a problem landing a 109... the only time I have come to grief with one is a rare occurrence landing it when it is badly damaged...

The Spitfire however is very easy to have a mishap with.

[unreasonable]

1 hour ago, CSAF-D3adCZE said:

Can you record such landing please? I am rather interested whether those are inches or feet.

 

No need when you can see actual Spitfires being three-point landed: in none of them is the plane being stalled more than a couple of feet off the ground.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2Vq-oOG-SM

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_3YuwerLCQ

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q627jL_uTZ4

 

I suspect the game is a little more forgiving than the real thing: nevertheless, if you are stalling out high enough to get the "crunch" sound, you are too high and have probably damaged your gear. If you get down to about 2-3 feet there is virtually no sound at all, which is ideal. Whether you count that as "a few feet" is a matter of semantics: obviously I would not. (Spitfire wheel, BTW is about 26 inches across I believe). 

 

Hardest part of landing a Spitfire I find is getting used to how it floats (ground effect) for a long time if you have made the right approach - you have to resist the temptation to force it down. Keeping it straight afterwards is a matter of using the brakes and rudder in short jabs.

[BadBud]

Thanks for all the comments here. DD_Authur's video showed very little play on the rudder...........could be the answer. Will continue practice.

BadBud

[Diggun]

1 hour ago, unreasonable said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q627jL_uTZ4

 

I would imagine one's flight commander taking a very dim view of this wibbly, bouncing controlled crash!

[unreasonable]

8 minutes ago, Diggun said:

 

I would imagine one's flight commander taking a very dim view of this wibbly, bouncing controlled crash!

 

I was thinking that as well until I noticed the windsock at about 33 seconds - there is a very strong side wind. On the old grass airfields they could generally avoid not landing into the wind, but I expect at an airshow your choice is limited to a specific strip. Given that it is a pretty good landing.

 

edit - but some of mine look like that even with no wind :)

Edited May 3, 2018 by unreasonable

[Diggun]

4 minutes ago, unreasonable said:

but some of mine look like that even with no wind

Agreed. Plus, any one you can walk away from, right?

[BadBud]

Made a lot of practice landings and with a few good ones. Best suggestion that works for me now is after touchdown, keep throttle at about 20% with small rudder input to keep straight while braking. Joy now!

Thanks,

BadBud

[-TBC-AeroAce]

15 minutes ago, BadBud said:

Made a lot of practice landings and with a few good ones. Best suggestion that works for me now is after touchdown, keep throttle at about 20% with small rudder input to keep straight while braking. Joy now!

Thanks,

BadBud

This keep throttle on stuff for landing is 1) completely not needed and 2) really bad piloting practice as all you will do is make the landing run longer. 

 

[56RAF_Roblex]

1 hour ago, AeroAce said:

This keep throttle on stuff for landing is 1) completely not needed and 2) really bad piloting practice as all you will do is make the landing run longer. 

 

 

No it does not make the landing run longer as you are braking with more force than the small amount of throttle for a short time is adding.  What it does do, at least in DCS, is give you more rudder authority not because you need lots but because you can use a little for fine control. Besides,  does it matter that much if it did extend the landing run?   I have seen quite a few collisions caused by pilots attempting to show off their STOL skills and getting hit by their wingman or someone trying to take off and not expecting to see them parked in front of them so close after landing :-)   If anything we should all be landing as long as possible as unlike our local airfield we have many aircraft trying to take off and land in a hurry without any ATC to help.   I don't use it in BoX but it does make a difference in DCS where they have overdone the twitchiness.   Real spit pilots have commented that a real spit is much easier to keep straight than DCS  has made it.

Edited May 3, 2018 by 56RAF_Roblex

[Requiem]

The Spitfire is one of the easiest planes to land. Check my channel for a video on it if you haven't seen it.

 

Sometimes the simple solution may work as I've seen this particular problem with other people landing the Spitfire...

 

Double check your using the proper brake control and that you're not relying on "toe brakes" to stop. You have a brake lever, not toe brakes.

 

[JimTM]

1 hour ago, 56RAF_Roblex said:

 

No it does not make the landing run longer as you are braking with more force than the small amount of throttle for a short time is adding.  What it does do, at least in DCS, is give you more rudder authority not because you need lots but because you can use a little for fine control. Besides,  does it matter that much if it did extend the landing run?   I have seen quite a few collisions...

 

During the first part of the landing roll, your rudder has enough authority to counteract any minor turning tendency, provided you apply rudder right away and with short stabs, not continuous application.

 

During the later part of the landing roll, you can use the left or right brakes to counteract any minor turning tendency,  provided you apply the brakes right away and with short stabs, not continuous application (at least until you are moving quite slowly).

 

If you do not land straight or you allow a minor turn to develop into a major turn, you may save it with some power and rudder.

Edited May 3, 2018 by JimTM

[56RAF_Roblex]

3 hours ago, 56RAF_Roblex said:

 I don't use it in BoX but it does make a difference in DCS where they have overdone the twitchiness.

 

[BadBud]

From what I have learned here, my landings are all good now. Thanks all,

Badbud

[ShugNinx]

Hello !

 

Nice thread, I'm also struggling with the Spit on landing (I gave up on taxiing for the moment). I'll check all of the provided links carefully during the weekend.

 

17 hours ago, SYN_Requiem said:

You have a brake lever, not toe brakes.

 

Ah ! I was using the toe brakes exclusively. But what are the toe brakes purpose then ?

Edited May 4, 2018 by ShugNinx

[Herne]

12 minutes ago, ShugNinx said:

Hello !

 

Nice thread, I'm also struggling with the Spit on landing (I gave up on taxiing for the moment). I'll check all of the provided links carefully during the weekend.

 

 

Ah ! I was using the toe brakes exclusively. But what are the toe brakes purpose then ?

 

they only on work on the AC that have independent "Toe" brakes

[ShugNinx]

I'm even more confused now... Doesn't the Spit have  independent toe brakes ?

[unreasonable]

No - it just has a lever on the joystick that applies brakes to both wheels.  Look in settings/keymapping/main controls - you will see a line called "wheel brakes".  Assign a key you can get at easily  on your joystick. When you press it you will see the lever behind the joystick move and you will get a sound effect.

 

Lots of soviet planes have a similar system.   The German fighters use toe brakes which give separate left and right braking, best assigned to pedals if you have them.

[ShugNinx]

Ah that explains a lot ! Thank you.

 

I do have pedals with toe brake, and assumed it would work with any plane, thus I didn't affected the wheel brake to any of my hotas button. Stupid me !

[dburne]

1 hour ago, ShugNinx said:

Ah that explains a lot ! Thank you.

 

I do have pedals with toe brake, and assumed it would work with any plane, thus I didn't affected the wheel brake to any of my hotas button. Stupid me !

 

I used to use my toe brakes on the Russian planes, but have since found it much better using the paddle lever on my stick for braking.

[RedKestrel]

1 hour ago, dburne said:

 

I used to use my toe brakes on the Russian planes, but have since found it much better using the paddle lever on my stick for braking.

Its worth noting that the I-16 has toe brakes, so not all Russian planes use the lever. I believe the rest of them use the lever though.

Question...is it possible to bind the toe brake axis to the brake lever, or is it simply an on/off thing for braking pressure?