New Oculus Rift unit at CES

[79_vRAF_Friendly_flyer]

Seems like a lot to wear on your head. I predict optic fibres trailing from a box into something you wear more like swimming goggles for the retail version 

 

It's quite light though, I guess the constant rubbernecking you might do will be a lot more taxing than the actual weight.

[71st_AH_Hooves]

It's quite light though, I guess the constant rubbernecking you might do will be a lot more taxing than the actual weight.

I can say very factually that the rubber necking does take a toll on your gaming stamina.

 

Playing along side Aborted Man with his OR in WT. When straining to look behind you to pick out where those large tracers are coming from, makes it sound as if you are pulling actual G's.

 

Its actually kind of funny hearing myself grunt trying to talk, while my head was twisted up and back trying to out fly an enemy A6M. But at the end of the sortie we just laughed and i thought "now that was the most immersive experience ive had in years". Though i was thinking this on the way to the medicine cabinet to get motrin for my sore neck, lol.

Edited January 16, 2014 by SYN_Hooves

[JG27_Chivas]

Hopefully the OR will have a system like TrackIR where your able to adjust the amount you have to move to look around, otherwise it would quickly become very tiring.  That said many people want more realistic physical effects to become a factor in dogfighting.

 

There is a huge amount of empty space in their latest prototype to allow them to easily change hardware inside the unit for the best possible experience CES prototype.   They development team say they are working with very sophisticated form factor manufactures that will allow a much smaller form factor with the consumer release.  I would imagine later consumer versions will become progressively smaller unless they find some new breakthru feature that requires more space.  The development team are working with new sound technologies/ and companies  that could integrated sound with the positional tracking for an even more immerse experience.

 

The development team is also looking to integrate some sort of G-Sync tech.

 

It will be a very interesting to see how much of this stuff will be incorporated in the first consumer release.  E3 is supposed to have a newer prototype showcased.

[chiliwili69]

I tried it at CES this week and I liked it. It's maturing quite quickly. Moving to the dot mo cap system was a good move in my opinion as for me it feels more precise and responsive like the TrackIR. Played EVE Valkarie with it for a little bit. Fun space game. Got a few kills even with an Xbox controller.

 

Yes, BOS and eventually ROF will support it. 

 

Oculus_Poisitonal_System.jpg

 

Jason

Excellent news from Oculus and BOS teams! 

 

I believe that the prototype you tested should be very close to the next upcomming DK2, so when you say "will support it", do you refer to all devices (DK1, DK2, CK, etc)?

 

As you will know there are about 40,000 DK1 owners around the world and in this forum we are about 12,500, but don´t know how many are in both groups.

 

I am convinced that when the Rift will be enabled in BOS, a few thousands of the 40K will acquire BOS just for pure inmersive pleasure, even if they are not flight simers. It´s a worth ride for 95$!

 

For the 12500 who has not the DK1, all I can say is that they are the best 300$ spent in hardware. No doubt. I´ll repeat with DK2 and CK for sure.

Edited January 16, 2014 by chiliwili69

[DD_bongodriver]

Hopefully the OR will have a system like TrackIR where your able to adjust the amount you have to move to look around, otherwise it would quickly become very tiring. That said many people want more realistic physical effects to become a factor in dogfighting

 

I think an effect like TIR would end up being a motion sickness problem all over again, it would just feel weird, really not sure where the notion of moving your head around becoming too tiring comes from, it's hardly a major physical workout and you only have to put up with it for however long you are in game.

[dburne]

I get some very funny looks from my wife, when I am flying with my trackclip attached to my hat.

I can only imagine what she would do, if she saw me wearing that contraption LOL.

I suspect though someday she probably will - just not anytime real soon...

[JG27_Chivas]

I get some very funny looks from my wife, when I am flying with my trackclip attached to my hat.

I can only imagine what she would do, if she saw me wearing that contraption LOL.

I suspect though someday she probably will - just not anytime real soon...

I'd advise not letting her try it when you do get one, you might have to share it.

[Freycinet]

It is definitely a lot more work to do flightsimming with an OR than with TIR. The 1:1 translation of movements really make it hard to check six, and I can't see how anything less than 1:1 would work. I think that immersion-wise it will be very good to have a physical component such as getting tired playing a role in drawn-out virtual dogfights. Expect simmers in good shape to have an edge. And expect sales of silk scarves to rise!

[Feathered_IV]

In our little home office/study room, Mrs FIV's computer is positioned somewhat behind mine. I imagine it would be annoying to have a goggled me sightlessly peering over my shoulder at her every few seconds.

[Dormouse]

Motion sickness and a stiff neck. You wanted immersion, there it is.

[DD_bongodriver]

I thought I was relatively sedentary, but I have never heard of people being too lazy to turn their heads, worse still is the serious physiological harm that natural motion of the body is causing.

[Georgio]

Agree 100%, TIR has to have scaling as no one has eyes on stalks to look at the monitor whilst looking behind.

At least we won't have the physical restraint of shoulder straps.

It is definitely a lot more work to do flightsimming with an OR than with TIR. The 1:1 translation of movements really make it hard to check six, and I can't see how anything less than 1:1 would work. I think that immersion-wise it will be very good to have a physical component such as getting tired playing a role in drawn-out virtual dogfights. Expect simmers in good shape to have an edge. And expect sales of silk scarves to rise!

[Primus_71]

This 1:1 motion scale may be an issue. Particularly in a competitive setting like MP dogfights, OR may cause the player to expend greater effort to achieve the same end (keep track of targets, maintain SA) than an opponent with a TIR set. 

 

TIR gives an edge over players without one. It is a convenience. With 1:1 motion scale however, OR may be more of a burden than a convenience. In a noncompetitive setting this may not be as problematic, but in a dogfight, I'd imagine I'd wanna get rid of it. 

Edited January 17, 2014 by [-]Primus_71

[79_vRAF_Friendly_flyer]

Motion sickness and a stiff neck. You wanted immersion, there it is.

 

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

 To get more immersion I could opent the window and put a fan to blow cold air from outside one me while playing. -30'C at the moment so I bet the "feel of Stalingrad" would be there for sure

[Freycinet]

Would be cool to have OR only servers. The sim obviously knows if it is being played in OR mode, so it should be possible to send the info to a server as well.

[Mogster]

I'd say its deffo going to be more effort to use an OR than a TIR though the OR will almost certainly be more immersive.

 

But then could you set up the OR for similar limited head movement that you use with the TIR?

[DD_bongodriver]

But setting up an OR like TIR sounds like lunacy, the whole point is it is supposed to be giving a realistic viewpoint, you want to look over your shoulder then look over your shoulder, we all do this everyday, some people are making it sound like using an OR is like doing a gymnastics session, it's not, it's like wearing a pair of goggles and looking around, if I want the view to move more than my head movement then I will head to the pub and get bladdered.

[airmalik]

expect sales of silk scarves to rise!

and swivel chairs!

[HagarTheHorrible]

How does 1K X 1K resolution, per eye, compare to what the Rift is offering at the moment with it's Crystal Cove prototype ? 

 

This figure is off the back of discussion about rumours of a Valve VR headset (false), Valve have suggested though, that they think, and they are working closely with Oculus, that by 2015 it could be feesable to see a product on the market that offers a resolution somewhere in this vicinity.  Do they know something we don't ?

 

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2014-01-17-valve-has-no-vr-headset-its-backing-oculus-rift

 

Oh and, yes, I agree, swivel chairs will become quite popular for Rifters, it won't be dramatic (especially if you use pedals), but it will certainly help take the strain out of turning to look those last few degrees.  Of course it might be considered a cheat and the purists will no doubt frown on those who rely on such underhand tricks.

Edited January 19, 2014 by HagarTheHorrible

[NonWonderDog]

How does 1K X 1K resolution, per eye, compare to what the Rift is offering at the moment with it's Crystal Cove prototype ?

 

That's essentially the resolution it has. It has a 1920x1080 screen, with the left half showing the left-eye image and the right half showing the right-eye image.  So 960x1080 per eye.

Due to the optics it can't show a normal flat image on each side of the screen and uses a round fish-eye view instead, so it doesn't actually use the full 960x1080.  You might only see something like a 900x900 circle worth of pixels per eye.

[Mogster]

But setting up an OR like TIR sounds like lunacy, the whole point is it is supposed to be giving a realistic viewpoint, you want to look over your shoulder then look over your shoulder, we all do this everyday, some people are making it sound like using an OR is like doing a gymnastics session, it's not, it's like wearing a pair of goggles and looking around, if I want the view to move more than my head movement then I will head to the pub and get bladdered.

Why does being able to check six by only moving your head slightly sound like lunacy? That's what we do with TIR.

 

People will do almost anything for a MP advantage.

[Feathered_IV]

I think I'm more interested in Oculus Rift because it promises a way for the view to fill my entire vision. Thats what gets me interested. The opportunity to look right over my shoulder doesn't hold any great thrill though. 

[Primus_71]

From OR wiki for the consumer version: "includes a new motion tracking system that uses an external camera which tracks infrared dots located in the headset."

 

Does this mean that they will not use a gyro for positional tracking, and rather it will function like a TIR, as in you'd place an IR camera on your monitor and it tracks dots on the headset to track your head's motion?

 

IF that is the case, then when you rotate your head more than 80 degrees to the left or right (or up), the camera will no longer see the dots on the headset and lose track of the headset's motion.  Given a 1:1 motion scale, how can you look back to see behind you 180 degrees, or any degree beyond ~80 from the IR camera?

[Georgio]

If you want to device to replicate your normal vision/movement, then you don't have any choice but to go with 1:1 as you'll get motion sickness with any other ratio. TIR gets away with it because your eyes are always fixed on the monitor as a reference point.

To be honest I think everyone is worrying too much about the whole head movement thing, you've moved your head 1:1 as long as you've been alive, so after a little adjustment with the headset you'll be doing the same but in a cockpit/tank/first person shooter etc.

This technology will take time to mature but without a doubt it will revolutionise our gaming entertainment in all aspects. 

 

I think I'm more interested in Oculus Rift because it promises a way for the view to fill my entire vision. Thats what gets me interested. The opportunity to look right over my shoulder doesn't hold any great thrill though. 

[Georgio]

If you look at images of the headset, the IR dots are on all surfaces, so the tracking unit knows which side it's viewing. I haven't seen a unit in the flesh but I'd imagine the tracking unit is very similar to a TIR.

Looking down the tech. road, I would think that eventually two cameras would be used set a few feet apart in front of the user. Two cameras would give more precise information. Either that or a Kinect type bar with a couple of cameras. 

 

 

From OR wiki for the consumer version: "includes a new motion tracking system that uses an external camera which tracks infrared dots located in the headset."

 

Does this mean that they will not use a gyro for positional tracking, and rather it will function like a TIR, as in you'd place an IR camera on your monitor and it tracks dots on the headset to track your head's motion?

 

IF that is the case, then when you rotate your head more than 80 degrees to the left or right (or up), the camera will no longer see the dots on the headset and lose track of the headset's motion.  Given a 1:1 motion scale, how can you look back to see behind you 180 degrees, or any degree beyond ~80 from the IR camera?

[Primus_71]

 

To be honest I think everyone is worrying too much about the whole head movement thing, you've moved your head 1:1 as long as you've been alive, so after a little adjustment with the headset you'll be doing the same but in a cockpit/tank/first person shooter etc.

 

The problem is not one of having to adjust to 1:1 motion scale. The problem is 1:1 cannot work with an IR tracking setup. 

Like I pointed out above, you cannot rotate your head beyond ~80 degrees, or the IR camera will no longer be able to see the reflective dots or IR leds to track your head's position. You'll need a gyro for that. 

 

Edit: Georgio, I just read your post. " so the tracking unit knows which side it's viewing." If the IR camera is able to distinguish individual reflective dots/leds, than it'd work. I was basing my opinion on how TrackIR works, so it may have mislead my view. 

Edited January 20, 2014 by [-]Primus_71

[DD_bongodriver]

Why does being able to check six by only moving your head slightly sound like lunacy? That's what we do with TIR.

 

People will do almost anything for a MP advantage.

 

it's lunacy because it defeats the entire point, you do that with TIR because that is what TIR limits you to doing, it is a pure compromise due to the fact you are tied to a sensor placed in front of you and is completely unrealistic, turn your head left but eyes right, the OR gives you a completely realistic viewpoint, point your face at where you want to look, even with the current DK 3DOF it is lightyears ahead of TIR in terms of natural feel, the new prototype OR with positional tracking will be even better and the 6DOF most likely will still work with a turned head due to the ir emitters being placed around the periphery of the unit too.

[Virus*]

i have only one question: wearing the Oculus Rift how you can use the right switches and buttons on the joystick, throttle, keyboard and eventually other cockpit-like instruments in you can't see them?

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

 Virus. I could use my buttons on the joystick and throttle like before, even with an Oculus Rift. Been using the stick so long it is like second nature And you do not need that many buttons in a WW2 sim anyway.

[Virus*]

S!

 

 Virus. I could use my buttons on the joystick and throttle like before, even with an Oculus Rift. Been using the stick so long it is like second nature And you do not need that many buttons in a WW2 sim anyway.

 

I don't think i will be able to do the same.

Probably only  with a joypad. But maybe what i need is just to try it

Anyway also reading all three pages of this thread i didn't understand why 1080p is not enough for flight sims(with OR).

My pc(that is quite good)can barely run Il2 BOS alpha at around 50 fps all maxed out at 1080p but without object in the mission(for example ROF around 40fps with quick battles with 24 aircraft)i don't imagine how it could handle greater resolutions.

Edited January 20, 2014 by Virus*

[DD_bongodriver]

Virus, if you map a HOTAS joystick well enough then you don't need to see anything, HOTAS is a real world invention designed specifically for pilots to operate essential functions during high workload so they didn't need to look at the switches, IMHO opinion I think 1080p will be ok for combat sims, but like many new technologies there is always an army of doubters who speculate on many potential problems.

[FuriousMeow]

it's lunacy because it defeats the entire point, you do that with TIR because that is what TIR limits you to doing, it is a pure compromise due to the fact you are tied to a sensor placed in front of you and is completely unrealistic, turn your head left but eyes right, the OR gives you a completely realistic viewpoint, point your face at where you want to look, even with the current DK 3DOF it is lightyears ahead of TIR in terms of natural feel, the new prototype OR with positional tracking will be even better and the 6DOF most likely will still work with a turned head due to the ir emitters being placed around the periphery of the unit too.

 

It'll work to an extent. The IR receiver is still ahead, but instead of looking to the left to see the screen you can continue looking ahead into the screens. The only problem is, the IR receivers can't extend around your head, so you can't physically look behind you and expect the same result on the OR device. Simply put, the IR receivers don't know if your IR recievers are on the front of your OR or on the back of the OR so once you look behind it thinks you're still looking straight ahead. So there will still be limits, you'll be looking slightly left or slightly right physically but virtually looking at your tail. But you'll be able to keep your eyes focused straight ahead because the screen is now mounted in front of your head rather than on a fixed point.

[SacaSoh]

I don't think i will be able to do the same.

Probably only  with a joypad. But maybe what i need is just to try it

Anyway also reading all three pages of this thread i didn't understand why 1080p is not enough for flight sims(with OR).

My pc(that is quite good)can barely run Il2 BOS alpha at around 50 fps all maxed out at 1080p but without object in the mission(for example ROF around 40fps with quick battles with 24 aircraft)i don't imagine how it could handle greater resolutions.

The pixel density (pixel per degree of vision) is way too low. Remeber that the OR fills your vision, and your PC screen only fill a small area ahead of you.

 

E.g.: a small set of pixels that looks like a distant plane on your screen (because the pixels are very close) will look like a aligator from Atari's Pitfall (because - if OR uses the same 1080p screen - the pixels apparent size will be larger to fill your vision). It would be nice to shoot a aligator of the sky with a pair of 20mm...

 

I believe the first consumer version of OR will be very sucesfull in gaming, but we'll only have the pixel density of a commom PC screen when OR reaches 8k resolution (and our graphics cards have enough power to run it). Some genres of games are less prone to be affected by pixel density, like first person shooter (action is very fast, brain "fills in" details).

[DD_bongodriver]

It'll work to an extent. The IR receiver is still ahead, but instead of looking to the left to see the screen you can continue looking ahead into the screens. The only problem is, the IR receivers can't extend around your head, so you can't physically look behind you and expect the same result on the OR device. Simply put, the IR receivers don't know if your IR recievers are on the front of your OR or on the back of the OR so once you look behind it thinks you're still looking straight ahead. So there will still be limits, you'll be looking slightly left or slightly right physically but virtually looking at your tail. But you'll be able to keep your eyes focused straight ahead because the screen is now mounted in front of your head rather than on a fixed point.

 

actually that's not correct, it is clear on the crystal cove prototype that the IR emitters form a pattern, this pattern is key to how the unit recognises the orientation, it is much more than the simple 3 dots of the TIR, so even when the unit is turned to the extent of the human neck a portion of that pattern is still visible to the sensor and is enough for it to track and orientate because most of the side view of the unit will still be visible to the sensor, only if you decide to face completely away will you expect to loose the IR part of head tracking, and I see no practical reason for doing that anyway.

[FuriousMeow]

The pattern is identical left to right. So it only knows left to right. Those patterns also go bye bye after the head is rotated beyond a few degrees. IR emitters/reflectors work in one direction, and not even on much of a degree scale unless they are spherical instead of flat (which flat they are for OR).

 

So yes, I am correct. You are still limited to left/right movement, and not full on turn around unless the gyro can accomodate that.

Edited January 20, 2014 by FuriousMeow

[HagarTheHorrible]

It'll work to an extent. The IR receiver is still ahead, but instead of looking to the left to see the screen you can continue looking ahead into the screens. The only problem is, the IR receivers can't extend around your head, so you can't physically look behind you and expect the same result on the OR device. Simply put, the IR receivers don't know if your IR recievers are on the front of your OR or on the back of the OR so once you look behind it thinks you're still looking straight ahead. So there will still be limits, you'll be looking slightly left or slightly right physically but virtually looking at your tail. But you'll be able to keep your eyes focused straight ahead because the screen is now mounted in front of your head rather than on a fixed point.

 

 

actually that's not correct, it is clear on the crystal cove prototype that the IR emitters form a pattern, this pattern is key to how the unit recognises the orientation, it is much more than the simple 3 dots of the TIR, so even when the unit is turned to the extent of the human neck a portion of that pattern is still visible to the sensor and is enough for it to track and orientate because most of the side view of the unit will still be visible to the sensor, only if you decide to face completely away will you expect to loose the IR part of head tracking, and I see no practical reason for doing that anyway.

 

 

I think you're both wrong-ish.  As far as I can tell the camera tracker is really only a datum point for the OR to prevent drift from the initial start point.  The rest, if not 99% is done by the gizmoes in the headset some of which, in the dev kit, might not have been turned on or fully functional.

Edited January 20, 2014 by HagarTheHorrible

[FuriousMeow]

It's to accomodate 6DoF from what I've read. So zoom in/out and strafe left/right in view. The gyros can't do that. I'm not sure if they can accomodate the complete turn around either, maybe they can. But again, if you are looking totally around then the IR portion can't do the strafe or the zoom since it's reliant on the IR portion.

[OBT-Psycho]

yep, 1080p seems a bit short regarding the distance between your eye and the screen. BTW final decision concerning CK haven't been made so we can pray for an even better resolution once consumer version is reached.

 

The main reason why I believe it will be a great succes is the final price. When you look on the market there are several major company that already have similar peripheral, like sony. Even if not basically aimed for gaming, it is still a head on display. but it's merely 3 times the price of the OR. and they are not worth that much of money if at the end they are not as good as the rift.

 

Regarding the unability to see the "outside world" while using the device, I am sure it won't be that much of a problem for gamers. Many of us have HOTAS, and I am sure main first simmer customers will. And we will be far from a lack of inputs. I fly CloD with my G940 and my profile holds it up quite well. My keyboard and mouse are there to move minimap only, or for radio messages, but everything else is on my hotas, even numerous bomber command and stuff that I don't use that much (altimeter adjustement i. e.). As far as I can see it, BoS will have less inputs so I don't see any problem in the future.

 

And finally, Crystal cove is not a final version but a "current stage of the product" aimed for demonstration. the current IR tracking is one of the possibilities with this kind of this technology, but it has limits like BongoDriver pointed. Gyroscopic sensors are there to double check the datas about head's position, but it is not as effective as IR and the rift looses signal at about 90°. therefore they are already thinking about a multiple camera setup, which might resolve this.

 

But it sounds me may all start looking for a good  physiotherapist  even if we do all these movements on a daily mater, doing it so much, so fast (in combat) in so long period will be hurtfull for our necks. but It is just a mater of training, isn't it?

[falstaff]

...somebody please check my blood sugar levels...ok, my pulse...I have to agree with both of Bongodriver's posts here....

 

one of the basic points of OR is it allows parity of view...i.e. the view changes according to how much you move your head..ala real life. Surely this is what OR is about, emersion, realism etc etc

 

Ok, so Sir Stephen Hawking might not be the ideal candidate for this, but it's hardly a great hardship for the rest of the community...

Edited January 20, 2014 by falstaff