New Oculus Rift unit at CES

[DD_bongodriver]

even if the FPS boys dictate things I really can't see an evolution that renders the oculus unusable to flight simmers, I think their needs aren't far off of our needs, in fact their needs require more so we would put less demand on it.

[Tektolnes]

even if the FPS boys dictate things I really can't see an evolution that renders the oculus unusable to flight simmers, I think their needs aren't far off of our needs, in fact their needs require more so we would put less demand on it.

 

What flight simmers require is high resolution and we'll need it more than those playing games like Star Citizen or whatever. As the technology matures a bit OR and whatever follows it will become great. If OR v1 is 1080p I don't think it'll be enough for flight simmers to ditch Track IR if they play online MP.

[DD_bongodriver]

I don't see why they need any less resolution than we do, I don't think it was flight simulation that pushed for 4k displays.

 

we should be happily able to ride on the back of any development made.

Edited January 14, 2014 by DD_bongodriver

[Tektolnes]

It's the requirement to see some far-off pixel sized dots, fine details on HUDs / instrument panels, etc. The immersion factor with OR will be great but with the increased FOV 1080p won't really cut imo it due to the effect this has on horizontal / vertical pixel density. Some people I know who tried the 1080p version were definite they couldn't use it for hardcore flight sims but loved it for other stuff. But yeah totally happy to ride on the back of any development made - every iteration of OR is going to see a pretty decent bump in resolution. I just don't see myself playing MP with OR 1080p unless I want to practice evasive maneuvers after getting bounced all the time.

Edited January 14, 2014 by Tektolnes

[JG27_Chivas]

My guess is the first OR unit will be higher than 1080P, with a new consumer version every eighteen months or so with better features.   Personally I wouldn't wait for later versions.   The first versions of TrackIR were far superior and far more immersive than using a hatswitch, just as the early OR will be over the latest TrackIR unit.   Of course some people won't agree, h3ll some people still prefer the hatswitch.   To each his own.

[DD_bongodriver]

Well I can only speak from my own experience of owning the DK and using it in Outerra, the resolution in the DK isn't good enough to be using in any effective combat but IMHO it is only a whisker away and I feel 1080p should suffice for an SP experience possibly some MP but yes super competitive MP is going to demand very good clarity.

[JG27_Chivas]

It's the requirement to see some far-off pixel sized dots, fine details on HUDs / instrument panels, etc. The immersion factor with OR will be great but with the increased FOV 1080p won't really cut imo it due to the effect this has on horizontal / vertical pixel density. Some people I know who tried the 1080p version were definite they couldn't use it for hardcore flight sims but loved it for other stuff. But yeah totally happy to ride on the back of any development made - every iteration of OR is going to see a pretty decent bump in resolution. I just don't see myself playing MP with OR 1080p unless I want to practice evasive maneuvers after getting bounced all the time.

 

 

Which 1080P version were they using.   The first 1080P prototype was far inferior to the latest 1080P OLED screen with the low persistence feature.   With the latest prototype you can clearly read the HUD, but long distance clarity could still be a problem.   That said the development team still has some surprises up its sleeve and prototypes to build before the first consumer version arrives.

[DD_bongodriver]

Another interesting little anecdote from my oculus experience, I could never get to grips with flying helicopters in desktop simulations, it just baffled me, not far off real life with my 1 flight in a rotary, but the oculus and the AH64 in outerra was a different story, now it almost feels natural, and I really couldn't fly the thing before the oculus, I just can't wait for the BOS devs to flick on the oculus switch for the next phase of testing.

[Georgio]

Yep it looks as though your experiences in OR BoS is going to be very valuable indeed.

 

Another interesting little anecdote from my oculus experience, I could never get to grips with flying helicopters in desktop simulations, it just baffled me, not far off real life with my 1 flight in a rotary, but the oculus and the AH64 in outerra was a different story, now it almost feels natural, and I really couldn't fly the thing before the oculus, I just can't wait for the BOS devs to flick on the oculus switch for the next phase of testing.

[Tektolnes]

Which 1080P version were they using.   The first 1080P prototype was far inferior to the latest 1080P OLED screen with the low persistence feature.   With the latest prototype you can clearly read the HUD, but long distance clarity could still be a problem.   That said the development team still has some surprises up its sleeve and prototypes to build before the first consumer version arrives.

 

Was the first 1080p prototype they were showing around. The recent 1080p OLED's low persistence is great for removing motion blur, etc. and being OLED it's going to look really vibrant but the resolution is still the same. It looks like they're still defining the solution and they've cracked one problem with the OLED low persistence. If they can get some custom made screen from Samsung at 1400p for v1 that would be great. Though we'd need a pretty hefty rig to run two 1400p screens locked at 60fps each.

[JG27_Chivas]

So far it looks like a very good computer system will be required, to run the OR effectively,  but that said combat flight sims have always required hefty systems for the best experience, and the OR should be much cheaper than a top of the line gpu. 

[DD_bongodriver]

So far it looks like a very good computer system will be required, to run the OR effectively,  but that said combat flight sims have always required hefty systems for the best experience, and the OR should be much cheaper than a top of the line gpu. 

 

it doesn't put any real extra demand on the system, it's only an extra monitor with a head tracker.

[Tektolnes]

It does add some load. If it was 1080p it wouldn't be both screens running at 1920x1080 but two screens running at 960x1080. Think the dev kit adds something like 20% to the GPU load but while this would increase with a 1080p version maybe other advances could cut down on this load. I guess we'll see once v1 comes along but I think a decent card now should allow us to use OR at 60fps in BOS ok.

[DD_bongodriver]

well when using the oculus the main monitor is more or less redundant, so why bother rendering on it, just needs a means of switching between them subject to demand.

[JG27_Chivas]

it doesn't put any real extra demand on the system, it's only an extra monitor with a head tracker.

What I'm saying is that complex combat flight sims usually needed a very good system to run at the 60fps requirement of the OR..  

well when using the oculus the main monitor is more or less redundant, so why bother rendering on it, just needs a means of switching between them subject to demand.

I think he's saying that two screens are displayed/rendered in the OR for the 3D effect. 

Edited January 14, 2014 by JG27_Chivas

[DD_bongodriver]

I think he's saying that two screens are displayed in the OR for the 3D effect. 

 

it's a single display rendering a split image, I admit I don't know if that means each split image is making a demand on the GPU etc

[JG27_Chivas]

it's a single display rendering a split image, I admit I don't know if that means each split image is making a demand on the GPU etc

Its my understanding its rendered twice as in two separate screens, which does add too the gpu's work load.   Atleast thats what I've understood from my reading so far.   Anyway whether is split or rendered twice, the consensus appears to be that it increases the gpu load.

[DD_bongodriver]

I own a DK, it is a single screen, this will be the format for the commercial release too, maybe rendering twice on the same screen does add demand, can't say it's been evident on my DK though.

[JG27_Chivas]

I own a DK, it is a single screen, this will be the format for the commercial release too, maybe rendering twice on the same screen does add demand, can't say it's been evident on my DK though.

Yes its a single screen, but showing two separate images, one for the each eye, to simulate 3D, which does task the gpu more, atleast thats what everyone in the OR development forums are saying.  I'll try and find some quotes from far more knowledgeable people than myself.

[kestrel79]

I think it's just pretty exciting for all airplane nerds like ourselves that in 5-10 years our sim setups will be very immersive and realistic. For someone who has accepted the reality that I will probably never own a real airplane, looks like flying a virtual one will be a cool alternative.

 

Who knows maybe if flying planes with the OR is that cool down the road after a few versions, we could see a mainstream flight sim revival of sorts?

[SR-F_Winger]

agreed kestrel. The simgenre overall will hugely benefit from VR devices. I predict that even already within the first half of 2015 most simmers will have a rift on their heads. Assumed that the rift consumer version is released within 2014. Well, at least i will be wearing one as soon as i get my hands on the consumerversion. Thats for sure:)

Edited January 15, 2014 by VSG1_Winger

[15[Span.]/JG51Costa]

Me too. Even if the price is a bit more than 300€

[JG27_Chivas]

I agree the immersion level, and sense of altitude/flight with the VR, will draw far more people to flight sims.  People will be flying  small/large aircraft around Europe, etc. with aerial tours around London, Paris, landing, and taking driving tours, with stops at Louvre, etc.   The possibilities are limitless with applications only limited by the imagination..

[71st_AH_Hooves]

Some might fin,however that flying is not for them. Being that immersed is sometimes too much for individuals. But as long as they have their monitors, no one is totally missing out. Bug man when you guys get to squeeze into that 109, you will truly see how small it really is. Im a little closterphobic and it took me a second to get over the panic sensation the first time i tried the OR in BoS.

 

 

Sidenote: did you guys see that you can now "center" the OR. Like a track ir. I saw a guy do that for someone that was about to demo the CCOR. That should be the key to zeroizing the drift many were experiencing.

[Georgio]

Funnily enough this post could be from 15 years ago as flight sims have always chased the technology bubble; it doesn't matter how immersive a sim is, we always want more. I guess it's our drug...^^

 

I think it's just pretty exciting for all airplane nerds like ourselves that in 5-10 years our sim setups will be very immersive and realistic. For someone who has accepted the reality that I will probably never own a real airplane, looks like flying a virtual one will be a cool alternative.

 

Who knows maybe if flying planes with the OR is that cool down the road after a few versions, we could see a mainstream flight sim revival of sorts?

[JG27_Chivas]

Some might fin,however that flying is not for them. Being that immersed is sometimes too much for individuals. But as long as they have their monitors, no one is totally missing out. Bug man when you guys get to squeeze into that 109, you will truly see how small it really is. Im a little closterphobic and it took me a second to get over the panic sensation the first time i tried the OR in BoS.

 

 

Sidenote: did you guys see that you can now "center" the OR. Like a track ir. I saw a guy do that for someone that was about to demo the CCOR. That should be the key to zeroizing the drift many were experiencing.

Yes the drift appeared to be a problem with internal positional tracking prototypes with no fixed position, which is probably one of the reasons they also introduced the camera into the equation, which gives a fixed reference point among its other attributes.  One thing for sure is they have the money, and the expertize too find the best solutions possible.

[FuriousMeow]

Yes its a single screen, but showing two separate images, one for the each eye, to simulate 3D, which does task the gpu more, atleast thats what everyone in the OR development forums are saying.  I'll try and find some quotes from far more knowledgeable people than myself.

 

As bongo said, it's a single image split across two screens. It's no different than the multimonitor configurations with one resolution split across two, or more, screens. The only extra load is due to the larger display area to split across two screens.

Edited January 15, 2014 by FuriousMeow

[DD_bongodriver]

I thought I said it the other way round, it's a single screen displaying 2 images, the unit only feeds from a single video port on the graphic card
 
some guys pulled one apart for a teardown, it clearly shows the single screen.


http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Oculus+Rift+Teardown/13682

[JG27_Chivas]

As bongo said, it's a single image split across two screens. It's no different than the multimonitor configurations with one resolution split across two, or more, screens. The only extra load is due to the larger display area to split across two screens.

 

 

There is no argument that the OR has only one video display.  This is well known.   The point I was trying to make was the extra demands on the gpu/cpu that's already taxed by complex combat flight sims to reach the average 60+fps for optimum OR use.  We know the gpu/cpu isn't just displaying one image as in a single monitor configuration, but two separate images at slightly different angles for the best possible depth/3D effect, which apparently decreases frames on an already taxed gaming system running a complex sim..  How much its taxed, I have no idea now, or how much it will be taxed when the final prototype is released.  What I do know is if you want the best experience flying complex combat flight sims, you might want to make sure you have the best system you can afford.

 

Edited January 15, 2014 by JG27_Chivas

[DD_bongodriver]

Hooves, have they given you any sort of idea when oculus support is going to be activated?

[Freycinet]

I'll hope they will go for better resolution in the middle of the field of view, that is where we need it. With an OR we can always turn to what we want to focus on. Peripheral blur and super clarity in the middle of the field of view will be a winner.

[FuriousMeow]

I thought I said it the other way round, it's a single screen displaying 2 images, the unit only feeds from a single video port on the graphic card

 

some guys pulled one apart for a teardown, it clearly shows the single screen.

 

 

http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Oculus+Rift+Teardown/13682

 

My mistake. Either way, two screens broken in half like two monitors or a single screen - it's still a large image that is placed on the display. It's no more taxing than a large resolution split across two monitors, or a large image on a single monitor - such as a 4K display. Basically, no extra rendering than a display of the same resolution. So while it's one screen, it's separating the screen into two and thus display (if put into numbers from 0 - 90) 0-50 of one side and 45-90 of the other side. One display, but slightly overlaping the images.

 

There is no argument that the OR has only one video display.  This is well known.   The point I was trying to make was the extra demands on the gpu/cpu that's already taxed by complex combat flight sims to reach the average 60+fps for optimum OR use.  We know the gpu/cpu isn't just displaying one image as in a single monitor configuration, but two separate images at slightly different angles for the best possible depth/3D effect, which apparently decreases frames on an already taxed gaming system running a complex sim..  How much its taxed, I have no idea now, or how much it will be taxed when the final prototype is released.  What I do know is if you want the best experience flying complex combat flight sims, you might want to make sure you have the best system you can afford.

 

There are no extra demands on the video card. If it's displaying on one display, it's displaying on one display. Otherwise it's on two different displays that overlap - which is probably what's going on but that division should be through the OR's hardware which wouldn't cause any overhead.

 

Sims might be taxing on the CPU, but they aren't so much on the GPU - there's a huge discourse between what a simulation does on the GPU vs CPU. It's reverse for shooters, less CPU and more GPU unless it's ArmA II or ArmAIII in which case it's just a whole bag of inefficient programming. So while a simulation might make more demands from the CPU, the GPU has a relatively light load unless it's also being given a lot of visual effects which most sims don't. They do have larger worlds to display but the majority of that isn't GPU taxing.

Edited January 15, 2014 by FuriousMeow

[JG27_Chivas]

My mistake. Either way, two screens broken in half like two monitors or a single screen - it's still a large image that is placed on the display. It's no more taxing than a large resolution split across two monitors, or a large image on a single monitor - such as a 4K display. Basically, no extra rendering than a display of the same resolution. So while it's one screen, it's separating the screen into two and thus display (if put into numbers from 0 - 90) 0-50 of one side and 45-90 of the other side. One display, but slightly overlaping the images.

 

 

There are no extra demands on the video card. If it's displaying on one display, it's displaying on one display. Otherwise it's on two different displays that overlap - which is probably what's going on but that division should be through the OR's hardware which wouldn't cause any overhead.

 

Sims might be taxing on the CPU, but they aren't so much on the GPU - there's a huge discourse between what a simulation does on the GPU vs CPU. It's reverse for shooters, less CPU and more GPU unless it's ArmA II or ArmAIII in which case it's just a whole bag of inefficient programming. So while a simulation might make more demands from the CPU, the GPU has a relatively light load unless it's also being given a lot of visual effects which most sims don't. They do have larger worlds to display but the majority of that isn't GPU taxing.

Again my point is the OR dual image 3D effect is taxing on the gpu/cpu as people on the OR forums have proven when turning off the OR 3D effect.   Again my point is a decent computer will be required to run the OR and highly detailed combat flight sims at over 60fps for the best experience.

[71st_AH_Hooves]

Hooves, have they given you any sort of idea when oculus support is going to be activated?

Not yet. But with assurances in this thread that it will indeed be supported at least gives me a warm fuzzy that its still happening. The implementation in the dev kit needs a little tweaking. They had the viewable area pushed back to far so it was as if you were staring out a window.

 

With development at such a fever pitch i dont think the OR is going to get the tweaks it needs until after release. Just my opinion. I have no idea of their plans.

[Georgio]

Not yet. But with assurances in this thread that it will indeed be supported at least gives me a warm fuzzy that its still happening. The implementation in the dev kit needs a little tweaking. They had the viewable area pushed back to far so it was as if you were staring out a window.

 

With development at such a fever pitch i dont think the OR is going to get the tweaks it needs until after release. Just my opinion. I have no idea of their plans.

 

It's nice to be at the forefront of new tech; I vividly remember seeing the first colour TV displays in the 60's after so many years of b & w. Products like the OR ( there will be others without a doubt) will finish a revolution that started in the 90's with early VR.

[VBF-12_Stick-95]

With external tracking, it can still handle looking behind OK?  Or did they change the 1:1 ratio?

Edited January 16, 2014 by VR-Stick

[DD_bongodriver]

With external tracking, it can still handle looking behind OK?  Or did they change the 1:1 ratio?

 

No it's 1:1 ratio, the basic 3dof pitch roll and yaw track 360 deg, the positional depends on the fixed camera.

[kestrel79]

I do get motion sickness fairly easily. Which is why I'm actually looking forward to the Rift. Maybe I can get my brain used to all the rolls and dives in VR so then when I'm in a real plane it doesn't freak me out and get me all sweaty like it currently does

[racingslippers]

Seems like a lot to wear on your head. I predict optic fibres trailing from a box into something you wear more like swimming goggles for the retail version 

[Georgio]

maybe around generation 5 but initially we're going to have the goggles at least until direct draw laser rasterizing onto your retina find favour....

 

Seems like a lot to wear on your head. I predict optic fibres trailing from a box into something you wear more like swimming goggles for the retail version