Ju88 bombing and questions

[InProgress]

So I decided to learn new skill, ju88 is quite interesting plane, level bomber, dive bomber and even heavy fighter in a version we don't have now. 

So I got few problems, design of cockpit is horrible :| there is fuel and other stuff on your left deep behind you and you can't look there.. at least I don't know how, tried to move camera but did not work well, I can only see one fuel selection. Can you actually move somehow to look in there and click this stuff? If not, it would be nice to have camera fixed, even as in front gunners position I can't look far enough to open bomb door.

 

Also I have seen on videos that you can move your gun and shoot at the same time (just like box) but I can't. When I move that gun, shooting does not work, I can only shoot when it's steady.

 

And my questions about level bombing. I watched some tutorials and it's not that bad. But still, some things are unclear. Is there arming button in cockpit? Could not find it and was confused why my bombs did not explode, only worked when I put shortcut in settings.

 

What's this left and right degree setting you can put in bombsight? I was playing with it but it seems like it did not do anything (ctrl + num 4/6).

 

And is there any wind factor? I know you put wind in box but in clod I don't see this option, also I was hitting target nicely without it anyway. So I don't know about wind in here :/

 

Oh and how to turn left and right while looking through bomb sight to aim on target?

Edited April 26, 2018 by InProgress

[Sokol1]

And here we (I) go again... 

 

Camera control - CloD deserve the Ig Nobel prize for camera control - or you use headtracker (TrackIR eand cia) or use mouse, nothing useful in between.

 

To control - in a bit awkward way, camera with mouse press and hold middle mouse button first, or hit F-10 to change mouse mode (from "clickpit" to camera control).

 

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Also I have seen on videos that you can move your gun and shoot at the same time (just like box) but I can't. When I move that gun, shooting does not work, I can only shoot when it's steady.

 

Just because default controls assignment - create at some point in 2011 by someone using 2 different joystick and a 5 (at least) buttons mouse has two function - but in 2 different controls category, assigned for mouse left button that result in conflict:

 

- Fire Current Weapon (in General category)

- Hold to Offset Camera  (in Camera category) - In fact this command is not offset but zoom camera (commands names are inverted), and Zoom Camera has no use, is just a little zoom inside cockpit and not in exterior (this is FOV + and -).

 

 

Happens that when you press left mouse button for fire turret MG, the game expect that you will "Zoom Camera" (not available in Turrets, no 6DOF there) and prevents move aim around.  

 

Two solutions possible:

 

1 - Players discover what happens wrong and remove mouse left button from 'Hold to Offset Camera (inf fact "Hold to Zoom Camera") - without remorse because has not practical use.

2 - Developers make a cleaned up default controls assignments and fix this wrong names in controls GUI (there I show how simple is fix this in "vanilla" CloD).

 

Until now is used the option 1. 
 

You other issues - fuel management in Luftwaffe planes is a bit complicated, take ages for players discover how this work after game release - and so are wrong related as "bug", but is not, despite had some issues. 

 

RAAF Squad used to have good game manuals for BF 110 and Ju88, covering this operation, but now links "is history":

 

http://www.raafsquad.com/cliffs/bf110/bf110Training.pdf

http://www.raafsquad.com/cliffs/ju88/JU-88A-1 Tech Brief.pdf

 

Some planes require arm bombs before drop - but not all. Since CLoD "clickpit" is only partially done - and in some cases privileging commands "cosmetics" (e.g. pump levers that are clickable and animated but has no practical use) for some practical things you have only option to press a key or joy button.

 

For level bombing you need use autopilot automation, that has two modes, one for cruise and one for drop bombs (mode 22), but this last has a bug that make plane "dolphin swimming" if engaged outside an specific and stable speed and trim adjusts.  You need dig users "recipes" do deal with this in forums.

 

The lateral adjust of bombsight is for compensate (like in il-2:'46) alignment deviation due wind - you have to manually calculate (outside of game) wind influence and true speed.

 

In Blenheim bombardier cockpit are instrument in base of bombsight for determine wind adjusts but is wrong modeled as just an slave compass...  

 

Look in Youtube for Nada Sero CloD He 111 level bombing tutorial - AFIR is that best cover/explain CloD level bombing operation - a bit more detailed (but unnecessarily complicated due error/bugs) than IL-2:'46 that in turn is a bit more detailed/difficult to master than in Bo'X (here is used a bit of the "take user by hand" approach of mainstream games games).

 

In CLoD they start doing the thing more "realistic", but ending improvising over il-2:46 solutions, and the result is a complicated (due errors, unfinished, bugs) and not necessarily "realistic" - just more difficult. 

 

Don't please "funsekers" because is "difficult".

Don't please "grognards" because is "half done/unrealistic". 

 

 

Edited April 26, 2018 by Sokol1

[InProgress]

Oh well, i am not into one man army so i don't care much about gunner control, ai is better shooter anyway. But hope it will be fixed. 

 

I know how to use camera lol. I meant that controls for ju88, at least some, like fuel starters thingy is behind you on the left! And you cant see them, then you can't click on them to start engine, unless it's on keyboard. Because you can't lean left or right (like in box). When you taxi in box you can put your head out of cockpit and see more, in dover you can't I think. So you can't look like this behind you and click on that stuff. 

 

I was just curious where is arming button, I see it on 110 and 87, but not on 88. So I just click key on keyboard to arm it, but still wonder where is arming button, like it's something inside plane that was clicked by gunner or something and not pilot?

 

WADC.html thing seems to be really great tool. But again more questions, what is "true course" it's slightly different than my course, depending on wind speed and direction, sometimes few degrees difference. What is that?

 

With that tool it's easy to calculate all this :3 but I still don't know where you put wind angle in clod :/ I can set up altitude, speed but I don't know where is option to set up wind.

 

 

So this think shows everything very nicely, but that true course is weird, assume that wind can slow me down or speed up, push me a little to sides etc. So now that it calculated wind angle and true course. What should I use for bombing, true speed or speed that is showed on instruments? Also I assume that true course is different than on my compas,so again? I am flying in different direction than instruments show? So basically on long runs if I use my instruments, I will get in wrong place? Because wind will push me away and I will fly slower or faster and get to point too soon or late?

Edited April 26, 2018 by InProgress

[Sokol1]

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I know how to use camera lol. I meant that controls for ju88, at least some, like fuel starters thingy is behind you on the left! And you cant see them, then you can't click on them to start engine, unless it's on keyboard. Because you can't lean left or right (like in box).

 

>>>"Camera control - CloD deserve the Ig Nobel prize for camera control..." 

 

You have to pretend you're seeing the controls and clicking on them:

 

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1371027447

 

"...cause, mordifficult, morreal..." 

 

... I still don't know where you put wind angle in clod :/ I can set up altitude, speed but I don't know where is option to set up wind.

 

You are thinking "Bo'X", there you input Altitude, IAS, Wind Angle  - what you need determine manually, and bombsight make the necessary calculations and adjustments.

 

In old IL-2's you need calculate TAS manually,  and in bombsight you enter only TAS and Altitude - is debatable if target altitude is modeled, some "bomben expert" say that is, others no, but you don't enter wind angle.

 

You need - as pilot, adjust course manually for compensate wind influence (Wind Triangle). As bombardier can make lateral adjustments in bombsight aim point for compensate side slip - your goal is have the crosshair fixed in a point on terrain - for calibration, or in the  target,  when engage bombsight automation.

 

German bombsight require speed in TAS.

 

DR-2 disk can help with "Wind Triangle" and TAS for (CloD) German bombers or use some electronic gadget.

 

BTW - For try use gunners, engage Kurssteuerung - Mode Course first, for plane keep actual heading leave Directional Gyro lower band in 0º before engage Kurssteureung.

 

Find the player made guide "JU-88A-1Guide draft.pdf" link in an Russian page, but download require register:

 

http://www.ssquad.ru/index.php?/topic/373-инструкция-для-ju-88/

 

Better, available in Chuck Owls files:

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-uSpZROuEd3M2VXRS1JVnRiODQ/view

 

BTW - Their CloD guide cover level bomber operation:

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-uSpZROuEd3b19DaUJmdGlxZ2M/view

Edited April 30, 2018 by Sokol1

[InProgress]

19 hours ago, Sokol1 said:

You have to pretend you're seeing the controls and clicking on them:

lol Well i hope this is known "bug" and on list to fix it. It goes to other positions, you are kind of locked and cant look around much.

 

19 hours ago, Sokol1 said:

You are thinking "Bo'X", there you input Altitude, IAS, Wind Angle  - what you need determine manually, and bombsight make the necessary calculations and adjustments.

What the.. I am more confused than before. So box is unrealistic when it comes to bomb sight? You put stuff from your instruments and "AI" is doing rest? Damn, to be honest i would like AI bomber guy to do this work.. I am just a pilot

 

So if i understand this right, when i come to bomb X airfield i must take data about location because it can be 250m above sea level so when my plane shows 2000m alt, then in reality i am 1750m? And I should put 1750 in bomb sight and not 2000, right?

 

Same goes for wind, you did not put that in bomb sight in real life? It was info you used to calculate TAS, and you put ONLY TAS and T(rue)A(ltitude) in bomb sight?

 

I still wonder what does Ctrl + num4/6 does.

 

btw. You have 2 compasses in your plane, why they show diffrent info? Not much but still, for example one says 250 and other 255.

Edited April 27, 2018 by InProgress

[Sokol1]

7 hours ago, InProgress said:

lol Well i hope this is known "bug" and on list to fix it. It goes to other positions, you are kind of locked and cant look around much.

 

May are... in the 999th position of an "small bugs" list to fix. Being in the 1000th position the blessed "Lubber Line"... oh, well, better forget this. 

 

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What the.. I am more confused than before. So box is unrealistic when it comes to bomb sight? You put stuff from your instruments and "AI" is doing rest? Damn, to be honest i would like AI bomber guy to do this work.. I am just a pilot

 

Nah, is just different approach, is not more "realistic" force the player to manually use an App in their smartphone for convert IAS in TAS ('46/CloD), neither for determine the Wind Angle (Bo'X -  although this has a bit of  "take the player by hand" thing of actual games) and input this values in game.

 

Anyway "mor'difficult" is not necessarily "mor'real", sometimes just... more difficult. 

 

BTW - TD il-2:1946 have much better bombsigh operation modeled than their "little brother" and "cousin".

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kFDz-Yi1Xg

 

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So if i understand this right, when i come to bomb X airfield i must take data about location because it can be 250m above sea level so when my plane shows 2000m alt, then in reality i am 1750m? And I should put 1750 in bomb sight and not 2000, right?
 

 

 

Yes, in theory. 

 

-  I theory because some CloD "bomben expert" affirm that target altitude is not modeled in bombsight  - and post about this just after  CLoD release in the "deceased" Sukhoi forum was censored.  So try in both ways.

 

BTW - You can use ATAG Lotfe assistant for the calculate the needed adjusts:

https://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/utils/lotfe7.html - Can open this over the game in real time using Steam Browser.

 

If want do things in an "grognard" way can use the Dreieckrechner DR-3 disk -the "Flight Computor" used by Luftwaffe crew in 1940's.

 

DR-3 in Flash: http://www.pumaszallas.hu/Private/VO101_Tom/Flash-DR3/DR3v10.htm

 

https://clodtools.weebly.com/

 

BTW - Inside CLoD install folder (in SteamApps) are files for print and assembly an DR-3 disk: 

https://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28790

 

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Same goes for wind, you did not put that in bomb sight in real life?

 

IRL depends on bombsight model, some work including with IAS input.

 

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It was info you used to calculate TAS, and you put ONLY TAS and T(rue)A(ltitude) in bomb sight?

 

The Wind Angle is not used in TAS calculation, is used for compensate the "crab" on flight path due wind direction.

 

In Bo'X you determine (manually) the Wind Angle and bombsight do the needed adjusts in plane course.

 

In CloD you determine (manually) the Wind Angle and need do manually the adjusts in plane course.

 

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btw. You have 2 compasses in your plane, why they show diffrent info? Not much but still, for example one says 250 and other 255.

 

You have the magnetic compass and the slave compass - stabilized by gyroscope and used by Kurssteurung (the autopilot), for the same use the Directional Gyro is divided in two bands, the upper you need manually synchronize with magnetic compass, the lower is for manually set the course for autopilot. *

Don't remember above the difference between readings in both - may be just an "It's CloD!".  

 

* In Bo'X Ju 88 you don't need bother with this things because the "take the player by hands" do all needed for you. 

 

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I still wonder what does Ctrl + num4/6 does.

 

Adjust sight right or left - "tilt" the bombsight "telescopic" for right of for left. Basically you use this for compensate the side slip caused by the wind in the aim. May need use, may not.

 

Sight distance - is the angle of bombsight for the target based on plane  actual position, you set this manually aiming in a point of terrain previous of target, or aim in the target and engage "bombsight automation" that automatically actualize (reduce) this angle.

 

Sight altitude - altitude of plane above the target (as above, debatable if at sea at level or ground level).

 

Sight Velocity - plane speed in TAS (for German bombsight, in British Blenheim... another "theories").

Edited April 27, 2018 by Sokol1

[ATAG_Flare]

5 hours ago, Sokol1 said:

May are... in the 999th position of an "small bugs" list to fix. Being in the 1000th position the blessed "Lubber Line"... oh, well, better forget this. 

 

I hope that this is eventually fixed. I know you've been begging for it to be resolved for years now, it would be a great help to RAF pilots who need to do accurate navigation.

[Sokol1]

Nada Sero bomber tutorial - Is made with He 111 but all procedures valid for Ju 88.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[TP_BlackTop]

Hi InProgress, you may find this of interest.

 

 

 

 

[Buzzsaw]

Thanks to all for their contributions to this thread.

 

It has been pinned.

[InProgress]

On 27.04.2018 at 10:22 PM, Sokol1 said:

BTW - You can use ATAG Lotfe assistant for the calculate the needed adjusts:

How does it calculate TAS? It shows something even 50km/h faster than indicated speed. Feels odd. How could you even do it manually, i don't see where is even any wind info, all i can see is on atag mission info thing like "Light wind from the west". It does not tell me much...

 

I tried it only in quick mission but was never able to get auto drop, i always had to click button to drop my bombs even tho i clicked ctrl+5 to make it auto targeting. Also what if i want to drop bombs manually? When should i click it? When arrow gets on 0 degree? A little before for carpet bombing i assume but 0 would be a point of first bomb to hit right?

 

I watched this video before, It's nice but does not really show any advanced things we are talking about, he put everything like on instruments, no TAS no real alt. So i assume that how game works and we don't have any of these advanced stuff working?

Edited April 30, 2018 by InProgress

[Sokol1]

On 4/30/2018 at 7:10 AM, InProgress said:

How does it calculate TAS?

 

In the 'old fashioned way", using the interactive VO101_Tom Flash Dreieckrechner DR3 Luftwaffe "Triangle Calculator"  - open in STEAM Browser over game:

 

http://www.pumaszallas.hu/Private/VO101_Tom/Flash-DR3/DR3v10.htm

 

1 - Set the actual plane IAS on speed scale (black) under OAT (temp) scale.
2 - Set the blue frame needle on plane altitude.
3 - Read TAS on speed scale (black) under blue frame needle. 

 

In ATAG Lotfe assistant (can open in STEAM browser like DR-3 or using your normal browser by Alt+Tab) just fill the boxes IAS, Altitude, Runway and Target altitude,  and hit Enter.

 

Or download an IAS to TAS App for your smartphone.

 

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.avdroid.apps.windcomp

 

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It shows something even 50km/h faster than indicated speed.

 

Indeed the TAS is always faster than IAS, and difference tends increase with altitude. Tends by close at sea level.

 

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How could you even do it manually, i don't see where is even any wind info, all i can see is on atag mission info thing like "Light wind from the west". It does not tell me much...

 

Again, in CLoD you don't use wind speed/direction for TAS calculation neither for bombsight adjustments. Can use for manually determine the "wind triangle" - what is an very complicated thing (video just for curiosity, ignore the procedure):

 

https://youtu.be/uIfJaK1f0xM

 

But you can use WADC in browser for do this.

 

Due the unfinished nature of CloD things may became more complicate than should, their default SP - QM and Single missions  don't have information above wind in their briefings (this was "invented" in Bo'X),  so you have no way to know about the wind in this missions unless look at mission code - some have bombers and could be used for level bombing training in SP.

 

Your only way to get information above wind is ask this for Control Tower  BEFORE  take-off, what don't help much in default QM, Single missions where all but one is "air start", and the one starting from ground have no loadout in the plane, and is not possible change this in GUI.

 

TAB > 7 > 3  "Request Take off Condition".

 

 

The answer  "Wind 030 5 Strip 210" mean:

 

Wind blowing from 30º  

 

Speed 5 m/s

 

Strip 210 - is the runway for take-off more close aligned with wind direction, or when take-of from this runway aligned with 210º  you go against a wind coming from 30º, an ideal condition.

 

In an online mission the mission maker can add winds layers coming from different directions complicating more the things if he don't add this info on briefing. 

 

But generally MP players complain against wind in MP missions, remaining what tower inform (map always have a default wind).

 

Now for deal with wind influence or you do the "wind triangle" calculation - for what the game don't furnished any tool for you (like in Bo'X), or approach to target aligned to or from the know wind direction - informed the Control Tower, and by tune TAS input  adjust bombsight  until get a fixed cross hair over the target of a previous reference point. If you are not aligned with target, use the lateral adjust of bombsight for compensate side slip.

 

Is what (virtual) "bomben expert" do, get used to this by practice.

 

Some "bomben expert" use tables like this:

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1b4A35WWtpYpM61ZvD3mJOBI705MBjefdYzJbjH1K_v8/edit#gid=1419529749

 

BTW - Don't forget the 1940 Magnetic Deviation for British Chanel area when dealing with heading/course.

 

 

Edited August 17, 2020 by Sokol1

[InProgress]

Hmm that's so hard 

 

Well to make it all clear..

 

1. You don't really use this wind or TAS now because it's not modeled in the game since you can see people bomb stuff and they simply put everything from instruments and don't do any calculations.

2. I will ask about DR3 later, i need few days not to think about it but would be cool to learn it.

3. So i have this website of ATAG to put all info there and get info i need to put in bombsight after it will be modeled in game.

4. I need wind only to get my course right (but lets be honest, you don't have to bother with it in small scale like we hae now? It would be something for flying B17 for 12h bomb run)

5. "Strip 210" It means i should face 210 on take off? Or it should be behind me? Actually you should take of when wind if more behind you or in front of you?

6. "Don't forget the 1940 Magnetic Deviation for British Chanel area when dealing with heading/course." About that.. it's another thing i don't understand.

[[DBS]El_Marta]

Here is a description of the different types of the Knemeyer Dreieckrechner, with an introduction on how it is used on page 18 ff.:

http://www.wiki.luftwaffedata.co.uk/wiki/images/Dreieckrechner_2009.pdf

 

4 hours ago, InProgress said:

4. I need wind only to get my course right (but lets be honest, you don't have to bother with it in small scale like we hae now? It would be something for flying B17 for 12h bomb run)

Depending on the speed and direction of the wind it even matters on short distances. Taking the windcorrection angle into account will save time during the bombrun.

Edited May 2, 2018 by [DBS]El_Marta

[Sokol1]

On 02/05/2018 at 5:41 AM, InProgress said:

1. You don't really use this wind or TAS now because it's not modeled in the game since you can see people bomb stuff and they simply put everything from instruments and don't do any calculations.

 

Looks like you are confusing things, wind is modeled in CloD - is just not used in bombsight adjust like you need do in BoS. You as 'bombardier' don't need bother with wind, but:

 

Wind direction affect plane true heading, so you as 'pilot' (in CloD) you need deal with wind direction - without any game "aids" or tools.  

 

You may don't see people in YT videos done IAS to TAS calculations* because the the game don't furnish tools for this, they need do manually outside of game.

 

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3. So i have this website of ATAG to put all info there and get info i need to put in bombsight after it will be modeled in game.

 

Yes, this Web Page to convert IAS>TAS, set the value bombsight. Done.

 

Earth Magnetic Deviation affect plane true heading, because needle on compass are pointing for Magnetic North and not for the North on map grip - represented in the plane by the N painted at 12:00 o'clock in compass.

 

In 1940 in English Channel area the Magnetic Deviation was around -10º: 

 

img upload

 

This means that when the needle  in compass (of plane) point 58º he are in fact flying for 48º because at time the Magnetic Deviation are negative, for left.

BTW - This " -10º" is OK for fighter navigation in Dover - Calais area, in Isle of Wight may need adjust. "Bombem Expert" use a more refined table, an example.

 

 

About wind/runway directions, the above Control tower information "Wind 030 5 Strip 210" is in Upavon, you take-of from the side with "grass" world.

 

pic host

 

BTW - In CloD some things follow "Dr. Who'leg world" rules and not real world rules, so wind direction is informed in opposite way that is used Western Aviation.

 

*An "bomben expert" don't need do IAS>TAS calculations at every flight, because he already make an angles table.

 

So he just need set bombsight - what could be done before take-off, for the altitude he pretend bomb, e.g. 3.000 m, then reach this altitude and fly for target at pre-defined speed, e.g. 300KM/H.

 

Their angles table show that for this altitude/speed he need set bombsight at given angle, let's assume 43º .

 

What he do is use the speed knob on bombsight for adjust angle - but don't bother with speed value, just with the angle (43º) indicated in bombsight.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 6, 2018 by Sokol1
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