how to use soviets above 6k?

[Wolfram-Harms]

2 hours ago, RedKestrel said:

Don't tempt me with sausage and sauerkraut, good sir, it is ungentlemanly to exploit a man's weakness in such a way!

 

Mmuahahahahaaa!!! Dsherrman ssecret weaponsz! In love and in war, EVERYthing is allowed!

 

9 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

Books, memoirs, you know, things like that. I don't have the time to be everyone's personal research assistant here. 

 

If you had read and remembered them well enough, you could have simply produced one or two such quotes.
I know that the 6. Armee had many deaths from starving; I also read about that.
But there were only Luftwaffe field units (Flak etc.) in the 6. Armee.

I had said, that I don't believe any German Luftwaffe pilot had to eat "frozen rats" at Stalingrad.
And I still don't believe that, until anyone shows me any other evidence.

[RedKestrel]

1 hour ago, CSAF-D3adCZE said:

109s, even G6 are hell of the turners, one must know how to use his elevator trim. I managed to turn so tight that I ripped my wings in undamaged airplane. There is nothing funnier than turning into red planes and watching them panic, before they evaporate after being hit by few shells.

I'm not saying the 109 can't turn, or that you should underestimate it's ability to do so. I'm saying you have to keep your speed at a point where you turn better than the 109 does, and keep it there. Once in the spiral the 109 has to play your game - try and stay on your tail or overshoot. Neither of those options are good ones for the 109.

Let's go through the scenario. You're a 109 cruising at 5000 m. You spot a Yak-1 at around 3500 m,. You're in his rear left quarter. He's flying straight and level. You stoop on him in a dive. Before you can get a shot he breaks hard into you. Your options are to blow straight through and regain altitude for another attack, or pull some Gs to get a snapshot in the turn.

Lets say you pull the Gs. If you make the snapshot, good show, that's something a lot of pilots probably couldn't do (I mostly can't)! The yak is dead, but at this point even if the yak is dead he is no worse off than if he was continuing to fly straight and level. he couldn't hope to outdive you, so a break turn was his only realistic option. At least he's caused you to burn some energy.

But if you don't make the snap shot, the yak initiates the rolling downward spiral at as high a speed he can manage. At this point your options are to disengage (having bled some energy to get the snap shot) or you can follow him into the spiral. Now, following him into the spiral when you are going so much faster than him risks an overshoot and a snapshot from him. So you can risk that or you can bleed a bunch of speed through hard maneuvering in order to saddle up behind him. Lets assume you can make those maneuvers without blacking out or ripping your wings, presumably using trim to overcome control authority issues. Now you're on the six of the yak, currently engaging in high-speed violent maneuvering, trying to get a shot off at him. A difficult situation.

Still, lets say you manage to pull lead and get shells into him. He evaporates in a cloud of fragments.

At this point you pull out of the spiral and find yourself several thousand metres lower than you started, slower than when you started. You've exchanged just about every advantage you had at the beginning of the attack for a kill. The yak pilot is dead but he's set you up for attacks by any other nearby fighters, some of which may be above you.

As the yak pilot under attack, this is actually one of the better outcomes from a tactical point of view. Since every action he took while at an energy disadvantage risked his death anyway, he might as well leverage that risk to neutralize your advantage. 

All of the above assumes that the 109's elevator authority problem can be successfully mitigated, and yet it doesn't really change the fundamentals of the equation. The 109's best options are far away at the top of the spiral, before it bled its entire energy advantage to score a kill. The yak, on the other hand, improves its position with every turn of the screw, as energy equalizes and you reach altitudes the yak is better suited for.

So it's risky for the yak, for sure, especially against very good 109 pilots, but the yak has less to lose and more to gain in this situation than the 109. 

[PatrickAWlson]

If I'm the 109 pilot I climb away and reset.  I can choose to break combat or attack again.  If I choose to attack again and the Yak pilot repeats the maneuver he progressively gets lower.  Eventually he is on the deck and I am above him.  This is fine in a 1 on 1 while playing a game.

 

In any realistic scenario repeating the attack all the way down to the deck is a really bad idea.  Now you are also relatively low in a 109 and who knows who will show up or who is waiting on the ground to shoot you.  When people had their actual lives at stake they would make the attack, reevaluate, and often decide to move on. 

 

There is also the idea of target value.  When facing a mixed formations it was the PE2s and IL2s that were the more valuable targets.  A good 109 pilot would use his energy to blow past the Yaks, hit the bombers, and extend. 

[RedKestrel]

3 minutes ago, PatrickAWlson said:

If I'm the 109 pilot I climb away and reset.  I can choose to break combat or attack again.  If I choose to attack again and the Yak pilot repeats the maneuver he progressively gets lower.  Eventually he is on the deck and I am above him.  This is fine in a 1 on 1 while playing a game.

 

In any realistic scenario repeating the attack all the way down to the deck is a really bad idea.  Now you are also relatively low in a 109 and who knows who will show up or who is waiting on the ground to shoot you.  When people had their actual lives at stake they would make the attack, reevaluate, and often decide to move on. 

 

There is also the idea of target value.  When facing a mixed formations it was the PE2s and IL2s that were the more valuable targets.  A good 109 pilot would use his energy to blow past the Yaks, hit the bombers, and extend. 

Exactly. There's really nothing a slower, lower fighter can do to a higher, faster fighter that refuses to get tangled up with you. But the fighter that refuses to fight has been neutralized as a tactical and strategic consideration.

The Extend-Reset-Attack Again cycle is smarter than following into the spiral as it maintains energy advantage even as things get lower, but at lower altitude the performance difference is much smaller so for the yak this can still be a better situation. Throw other planes into the mix and things change dramatically...

[LUZITANO]

On 27/04/2018 at 9:00 PM, ShamrockOneFive said:

 

Looks like some good hunting! Well done!

thx man

I've changed my strategy again. To play with Soviet I conclude that you need to attack/defend ground targets and mainly fly near the IL2s and Pe2s

 

On 02/05/2018 at 11:48 AM, CSAF-D3adCZE said:

109s, even G6 are hell of the turners, one must know how to use his elevator trim. I managed to turn so tight that I ripped my wings in undamaged airplane. There is nothing funnier than turning into red planes and watching them panic, before they evaporate after being hit by few shells.

honestly I avoid entering dogfight when I realize that the 109 pilot is very good, especially those who do low-speed curves

I saw on YouTube something about using the elevator trim instead of the flaps

 

Edited May 10, 2018 by LUZITANO

[D3adCZE]

10 hours ago, LUZITANO said:

thx man

I've changed my strategy again. To play with Soviet I conclude that you need to attack/defend ground targets and mainly fly near the IL2s and Pe2s

 

honestly I avoid entering dogfight when I realize that the 109 pilot is very good, especially those who do low-speed curves

I saw on YouTube something about using the elevator trim instead of the flaps

 

Elevator trim helps with stick forces when you try to pull/push. Critical AoA stays the same and you need to use flaps for that.