how to use soviets above 6k?

[LUZITANO]

Guys, I have not played IL-2 in years. Now I'm with the BoS, I'd like to know how to face 109 in his altitude

[Bilbo_Baggins]

-Take them down low. 

 

-Bf109 stick forces are set in concrete above 500kmh. Make use of your tremendous advantage in control authority. 

 

-Use roll rate. Lagg3 and la5 have ridiculously fast roll rates. Almost twice the speed of 109. Even pe2 ailerons are better than 109 at high speed.

Edited April 25, 2018 by Mcdaddy

[ShamrockOneFive]

 

Quote

    He who knows when he can fight and when he cannot will be victorious. - Sun Tzu

 

Rare I that I think to quote Sun Tzu but I think this situation applies.

 

The  Bf109 is, among the aircraft currently available, the king of high altitude combat. I don't think any other aircraft is as capable up high as the Bf109 is which confers a considerable advantage. The Bf109 is pretty good at almost any altitude too which is also an advantage and its the reason why its one of the best fighters of WWII. But it has its weaknesses too and you need to exploit those to win or know enough to evade and avoid until you're positioned appropriately.

 

As Mcdaddy has already said, The Bf109 suffers at high speed from ineffective controls so high speed diving attacks are possible but limited by those control forces. When evading and on the defensive, you can usually get out of the way fairly easily as long as you've spotted the attack.

 

At medium and lower altitudes most Bf109s stop being superior and start being equal. The La-5 and LaGG-3 out roll it, the P-39L-1, Spitfire Vb, Yak-1, 1B, and Yak-7B out turn it, and all of those fighters carry around just enough firepower to cripple a Bf109 fairly quickly. Bf109s are great performers but not great at taking damage so usually a few good hits are all that it takes.

 

As much as this is focused on the Bf109, you also need to know and understand your aircraft and its strengths. What do you fly?

[Field-Ops]

If you must, be sure to turn on your second stage of supercharing in planes that have such a setting when you cant drag him low. 

[[CPT]Crunch]

One or two wingmen, and some good team work is the ticket.  More eye's, more firepower, and mutual cover.  Than it really doesn't matter what aircraft, long as the ace in his hot rod is all alone.

[CrazyDuck]

What do experten around here think about MiG-3 as a high alt 109 antidote? Historically it should be a high alt monster (fastest operational fighter in the world in 1941 till 190 came around). I haven't dedicated enough time yet to it to be able to comment.

[kalbuth]

27 minutes ago, CrazyDuck said:

What do experten around here think about MiG-3 as a high alt 109 antidote? Historically it should be a high alt monster (fastest operational fighter in the world in 1941 till 190 came around). I haven't dedicated enough time yet to it to be able to comment.

I love the mig3, and yes she performs good at high altitudes. Thing is, she's less of  turner than a 109 and as more problems than 109 in dives since, instead of having controls locked (which can be dealt with through trims) , she loses parts, and there is no cure for that

Mig3 is overall kind of a lesser 109

 

Thing to remember is that extreme altitude difference is meaningless. At some point the diving aircraft will reach its max speed and thus will start losing energy by keeping in a dive.

This can be used for example by flying at your best altitude, ie the one where you reach max speed after diving to the deck. When evading through a dive, if the tango follows you, he'll start losing E and end up with "simply" the performance difference of both your aircrafts, theorically.

Sounds easy, but gets tricky when you know germans have better top speed in dives and the 190 is at its best at these speeds and will be able to follow you no matter what, but it's something to consider against 109s.

Another thing is if flying at the deck, 109 diving from very high will be control locked and thus cannot keep up with your turns, at least not if they want to avoid the ground.

 

The main point in all this is to always be aware of being attacked. And for this, the best answer is to have a wingman and flying aligned and mutually check your 6s constantly. That way you have 360 security.

 

That was the few tips from a very bad dogfighter that has a few hours of online play on nearly all the fighters of the game under his belt, so take that with the usual precautions

[Livai]

Depends if you meet a greenhorn or an ace and the situation who has the advantage or the disadvantage? The Germans are in everything good at any altitude in hands of a experienced player who knows what he is doing.

 

You can try ->

- dive down from high altitude to place you below him and climb up if you are 100m away from him with the speed from your dive before

- boom&zoom

- rolling scissors

 

-> Better stay unnoticed not worth to fight him if he notice you. If you spend too much time with dogfight him you can expect more unknown planes appear.

 

 

 

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

5 hours ago, CrazyDuck said:

What do experten around here think about MiG-3 as a high alt 109 antidote? Historically it should be a high alt monster (fastest operational fighter in the world in 1941 till 190 came around). I haven't dedicated enough time yet to it to be able to comment.

 

The MiG is still slower than the 109s at altitudes, the late version we have is a bit slower than the early ones. (I think those had a top speed of 640 km/h and our MiG is around 610-620 km/h) 

[-TBC-AeroAce]

To be really honest just avoid their attacks until they get bored and make a mistake.  They pounce!!!!

[[CPT]CptJackSparrow]

Bring a 4ship.

[Herne]

Spit handles well at altitude, especially with the merlin 46

[JaffaCake]

If you are high and see a 109 with an advantage just simply dive away from him. Even if he is faster in a dive, you have better control authority by a long stretch. They are also glass cannons as some pointed out - literally an LMG hit to the engine will drop their performance to that of an i-16.

[Ehret]

In Allison equipped planes - the P-40 and the P-39 you can switch to the manual propeller pitch control and increase engine revs a bit - 3100rpm is still safe. This will drive the supercharger faster thus increasing the boost a bit - a helpful trick when at altitude.

[LUZITANO]

I am considering a lot of the Mig-3 or some equipment like the Spitfire V. Now at the moment I own the Yak-1 and the La-5 s.8

 

This afternoon I intend to implement the tactic of flying very high (depending on the battle situation) with the Yak-1

 

La-5 gives me bad luck, I think because I can not see the back

 

To tell you the truth, Soviet is not my style. To tell you the truth, I like diving very fast and it is not possible with Soviet fighters.

[LUZITANO]

My other option, which I am considering today ... is to combat extremely low. However ... it is always very risky to do this, but ... flying Soviet may be as it should be

 

 

[RedKestrel]

I'm new to this game but I've been flying Il-2 1946 for a while and I have some thoughts. Apologies for wall of text/possible bad ideas:

One thing I try against high-flying 109s is to try and present an attractive target - once I've spotted them, I set myself a bit below and moving away from them, keeping them in my 7-8 oclock or so. Fly straight and level, obviously keeping an eye out for others to avoid getting bounced. When your 'target' dives on you, turn into him and when he's right on your beam continue your turn into a nose-down and initiate a downward spiral (like a rolling scissors headed downward). A bit of excess rudder can give you sideslip and make you harder to hit and also slow you down if needed. Keep your attitude such that you're losing altitude quickly enough to maintain high speed but not so high that you black out or lose bits off your plane (tough in planes with low dive limits like the La-5). Tighten or loosen the rolling as needed to keep this speed and stay away from their guns. 

Once you're in the spiral, there's a bunch of ways it can go.
1. He recognizes your tactic, refuses the bait and zooms back up. At this point exit the spiral ASAP and extend away 180 degrees from him. Don't try to climb back up! If he catches you climbing you're toast (ask me how I know lol). If he comes back at you while you're extending you can initiate the spiral again and keep dragging him down.
2. He gets into the spiral with you and nails you. Hard to do considering the rolling geometry but there are a lot of guys out there who can do it. 
3. He gets into the spiral with you and overshoots. You may get a snap shot here. After the snapshot you may just want to get out of the spiral higher than him to get an alt/E advantage then re-engage when he exits the spiral. 
4. He tries to stay in the spiral with you and his controls lock up due to high speed. Now you can outmaneuver him and maybe even get a tracking shot on him, as he won't be able to turn as tight.
5. He recognizes the spiral after he's in it and tries to exit - you might get a snap shot here. If he exits first you have to remember that he's going to have the E advantage so you might just take this opportunity to extend away in the opposite direction. 

With AI number 1 never happens because they stay committed. 1 will happen most often against experienced pilots who immediately see what you're doing. 2 is what happens sometimes when you bait a good pilot who just says 'to hell with it' and gives it a shot to see if he can kill you. 3 to 5 will happen with overconfident or impatient opponents who really want that kill. 

Whether you actually get your guns on them in the spiral is maybe irrelevant, because as long as you keep max speed in your spiral and he follows you down, when you emerge from the spiral you'll at least be close to co-E, and he's now down on the deck - in the realm of most soviet fighters. If possible exit the spiral before he does, once you're low enough - this will set you up at a higher altitude than him and you'll retain more of your energy, but its dangerous because he might get a snap shot. 

You absolutely need to know your aircraft on this one - I've lost parts on planes trying this, blacked out and got nailed etc. because I was going too fast or turning too tight. You also better be sure it's a 109 that's after you. A 190 will out-roll you and also retain high speed control authority so this is top of the list of Very Bad Ideas against butcher birds. 

Overall its a risky strategy but it lets you exploit any superior control authority you may have at high speeds and robs your opponent of their advantages at altitude. This can work really well against the impatient, kill-hungry or overconfident, and poorly against the people who keep their cool.

TL;DR: Drag them down into the mud and become the pig we were born to be

[-332FG-Hank_DG]

26 minutes ago, RedKestrel said:

I'm new to this game but I've been flying Il-2 1946 for a while and I have some thoughts. Apologies for wall of text/possible bad ideas:

One thing I try against high-flying 109s is to try and present an attractive target - once I've spotted them, I set myself a bit below and moving away from them, keeping them in my 7-8 oclock or so. Fly straight and level, obviously keeping an eye out for others to avoid getting bounced. When your 'target' dives on you, turn into him and when he's right on your beam continue your turn into a nose-down and initiate a downward spiral (like a rolling scissors headed downward). A bit of excess rudder can give you sideslip and make you harder to hit and also slow you down if needed. Keep your attitude such that you're losing altitude quickly enough to maintain high speed but not so high that you black out or lose bits off your plane (tough in planes with low dive limits like the La-5). Tighten or loosen the rolling as needed to keep this speed and stay away from their guns. 

Once you're in the spiral, there's a bunch of ways it can go.
1. He recognizes your tactic, refuses the bait and zooms back up. At this point exit the spiral ASAP and extend away 180 degrees from him. Don't try to climb back up! If he catches you climbing you're toast (ask me how I know lol). If he comes back at you while you're extending you can initiate the spiral again and keep dragging him down.
2. He gets into the spiral with you and nails you. Hard to do considering the rolling geometry but there are a lot of guys out there who can do it. 
3. He gets into the spiral with you and overshoots. You may get a snap shot here. After the snapshot you may just want to get out of the spiral higher than him to get an alt/E advantage then re-engage when he exits the spiral. 
4. He tries to stay in the spiral with you and his controls lock up due to high speed. Now you can outmaneuver him and maybe even get a tracking shot on him, as he won't be able to turn as tight.
5. He recognizes the spiral after he's in it and tries to exit - you might get a snap shot here. If he exits first you have to remember that he's going to have the E advantage so you might just take this opportunity to extend away in the opposite direction. 

With AI number 1 never happens because they stay committed. 1 will happen most often against experienced pilots who immediately see what you're doing. 2 is what happens sometimes when you bait a good pilot who just says 'to hell with it' and gives it a shot to see if he can kill you. 3 to 5 will happen with overconfident or impatient opponents who really want that kill. 

Whether you actually get your guns on them in the spiral is maybe irrelevant, because as long as you keep max speed in your spiral and he follows you down, when you emerge from the spiral you'll at least be close to co-E, and he's now down on the deck - in the realm of most soviet fighters. If possible exit the spiral before he does, once you're low enough - this will set you up at a higher altitude than him and you'll retain more of your energy, but its dangerous because he might get a snap shot. 

You absolutely need to know your aircraft on this one - I've lost parts on planes trying this, blacked out and got nailed etc. because I was going too fast or turning too tight. You also better be sure it's a 109 that's after you. A 190 will out-roll you and also retain high speed control authority so this is top of the list of Very Bad Ideas against butcher birds. 

Overall its a risky strategy but it lets you exploit any superior control authority you may have at high speeds and robs your opponent of their advantages at altitude. This can work really well against the impatient, kill-hungry or overconfident, and poorly against the people who keep their cool.

TL;DR: Drag them down into the mud and become the pig we were born to be

 

This is a very good tactic against us 109 pilots...... I'm actually seeing it more often now. Yesterday i had a yak do the same thing, presented himself like he didn't know what he was doing, so i dived on him and sure enough did that same tactic (bastard was waiting for me) but i didn't fall for it. Usually don't let myself get sucked low unless i know i have a wingman that's ready to bounce him.

[KoN_]

22 hours ago, Mcdaddy said:

-Take them down low. 

 

-Bf109 stick forces are set in concrete above 500kmh. Make use of your tremendous advantage in control authority. 

 

-Use roll rate. Lagg3 and la5 have ridiculously fast roll rates. Almost twice the speed of 109. Even pe2 ailerons are better than 109 at high speed.

So true , set in concrete . ?

[Bilbo_Baggins]

17 hours ago, CrazyDuck said:

What do experten around here think about MiG-3 as a high alt 109 antidote? Historically it should be a high alt monster (fastest operational fighter in the world in 1941 till 190 came around). 

 

The Mig is seen as the fighter for high altitude but I think often people don't realise that it can put out 1350hp on the deck which is as much as an F4 at full bore. That can get you some good performance and the 12.7mm is often able to take off wings with one hit. 

[ShamrockOneFive]

8 hours ago, LUZITANO said:

I am considering a lot of the Mig-3 or some equipment like the Spitfire V. Now at the moment I own the Yak-1 and the La-5 s.8

 

This afternoon I intend to implement the tactic of flying very high (depending on the battle situation) with the Yak-1

 

La-5 gives me bad luck, I think because I can not see the back

 

To tell you the truth, Soviet is not my style. To tell you the truth, I like diving very fast and it is not possible with Soviet fighters.

 

8 hours ago, LUZITANO said:

My other option, which I am considering today ... is to combat extremely low. However ... it is always very risky to do this, but ... flying Soviet may be as it should be

 

 

 

Yeah diving fast is not really something that any of the Soviet built aircraft do well with. None that we have anyways. The P-40 and P-39 are both pretty good at diving but weaker in other aspects.

 

It's a different philosophy and a different set of circumstances that guided Soviet aircraft in construction and practice. Most combat on the Eastern Front tended to happen near the front and at lower altitudes. Once this reality set in, Soviet aircraft and engine designers tended to optimized for that environment. The Germans were confronted with two different types of air war on multiple fronts. The east was as I already mentioned and the West tended towards higher altitude confrontations. As the war stretched on, those confrontations got higher and included four engine heavy bombers.

 

So for the Soviets, you have your primary striking forces made up of the IL-2s as low altitude attackers and battlefield support aircraft that directly fly missions near the troops. Then you have the Pe-2 which handles similar duties but with some added range and capability to strike behind enemy lines. But the Pe-2 and other light bombers are all still considered battlefield weapons that directly support troops engaged in the fighting. It's very tactical as opposed to the strategic bombing campaigns in the west targeting cities, factories and munitions depots.

 

The fighters are there to support the IL-2s and Pe-2s (and others) by providing close escort and flying fighter sweeps. None of these missions need higher altitude operations as the IL-2s flew low and the Pe-2s tended to fly at medium altitudes for level bombing runs or lower altitudes for dive bombing attacks.

 

The few high flying aircraft in Soviet service, such as the MiG-3, Spitfire IX, and P-47 tended to be used by PVO city defense units and what combat they saw, particularly in later years, tended to be against high flying recon aircraft. Early on of course you had defensive operations to try and prevent bombers from hitting Moscow, Leningrad, etc.

 

So.... this essay is all to say that the Soviet fighters have a different philosophy and you kind of have to get on-board with it to do well with them

[LUZITANO]

On 24/04/2018 at 10:05 PM, ShamrockOneFive said:

As much as this is focused on the Bf109, you also need to know and understand your aircraft and its strengths. What do you fly?

I spent years in my life playing IL-2-1946 with almost all combat aircraft available

Online I usually choose the team that has the least players, so my preference is very wide. But ... I avoid the Soviets and the Japanese a little, my favorite planes are the Spitfire, 109, 190 (especially Ta-152H), P-47, P-39, Hurricane, LA-5 and Ki-84

When I played IL-21946, I tested all mods and packs models

 

Apart from the simulators, I also like to read and I have books on air battles and a very special one from Adolf Galland

On the internet I like to read about the technical part. I test the speeds of the planes personally in the simulators, to take notes

I know the Bf109 gains a lot of power above the 2k altitude. And that in the altitude that I intend to fly (8k) the 109 is 100km/h faster

 

SunTzu is lovely, my whole life circulates around strategy

 

[Wolfram-Harms]

13 hours ago, LUZITANO said:

To tell you the truth, Soviet is not my style. To tell you the truth, I like diving very fast and it is not possible with Soviet fighters.

 

Buy the MiG-3, try the MiG-3 - and you'll see: she can dive like hell!

[LUZITANO]

 

Yesterday I did as I like to do, I got the Yak and I went up to 8.5k to hunt

My engine almost froze

 

[E69_geramos109]

As a 109 pilot i had some experiences  fighting at altitude and i have to say that is not allways easy. The 109 has more performance in numbers but at altitude it bleeds energy as hell with manouvers so even when you have some  alt advantage you can not turn and caught his 6 because you need like 1500m to make a looping. On the other side yaks are like comets so they can pull tight turns on this alt. Also the 109 in the game overheats the oil climbing all the time even more on winter maps so if the pilot knows where to be and how to moove is so difficult and you are in danger during some seconds when you are on shooting range even at 600-800 they can hit you. 

Edited April 28, 2018 by E69_geramos109

[ShamrockOneFive]

On 4/26/2018 at 10:27 AM, LUZITANO said:

 

Yesterday I did as I like to do, I got the Yak and I went up to 8.5k to hunt

My engine almost froze

 

 

Looks like some good hunting! Well done!

[Venturi]

On 4/25/2018 at 12:24 AM, CrazyDuck said:

What do experten around here think about MiG-3 as a high alt 109 antidote? Historically it should be a high alt monster (fastest operational fighter in the world in 1941 till 190 came around). I haven't dedicated enough time yet to it to be able to comment.

 

 

The Spitfire is the Soviet plane to beat at high altitude, and at low altitude it’s great too. 

[Max_Damage]

On 4/25/2018 at 10:24 AM, CrazyDuck said:

What do experten around here think about MiG-3 as a high alt 109 antidote? Historically it should be a high alt monster (fastest operational fighter in the world in 1941 till 190 came around). I haven't dedicated enough time yet to it to be able to comment.

Emetgency power Mig3 is approx equal to a fw190 at combat power.

Its worse then an f4/g2 on combat but it should be faster then an f2 on combat at 6 km. Mig is better then a yak or la5 at 6k.

It doesnt have an edge against any german planes at 6k but it can outrun f2 i think. Or have equal speed.

Edited April 28, 2018 by Max_Damage

[ATA_Vasilij]

Just take full fuel and wait him to fly lower when he needs to land....

but dont shoot on himwhen gear is down, its not a knight behave. 

 

Or shoot him down before he climbs such altitute. 

 

Or keep low, there is always enough of food.

 

And follow him only if you have a taste to do a sightseeing flight with panoramats. :))

[LukeFF]

4 hours ago, 3.IAP_Vasilij said:

but dont shoot on himwhen gear is down, its not a knight behave. 

 

[RedKestrel]

1 hour ago, LukeFF said:

 

Comrades,

I was coming in for an emergency landing last night and even though my gear was down, a 109 came down on me and shot my plane all to hell. I barely escaped the flaming wreckage with my life!

Then, as I legged it across the frozen steppe back to base, several squads of wehrmacht infantry took shots at me with rifles and machine guns! Pretty sure they set a village on fire when pursuing me, but that could've been an accident. 

Call me crazy, but I'm kind of beginning to doubt the German military''s commitment to gentlemanly warfare! Anyway, I hope the political commissar is understanding of my plight when I get back to friendly lines. I'm sort of hoping I can get sent to one of those vacation camps out east for a bit of rest. I think they're called Gul-something or other.

Sincerely,
Ivan Ivanovich Ivanov,  Average Soviet Pilot

[Wolfram-Harms]

13 hours ago, RedKestrel said:

Call me crazy, but I'm kind of beginning to doubt the German military''s commitment to gentlemanly warfare!

 

That was mostly given up towards the end of WW1 already - by all sides.
And in communist Russia, "knights" were most definitely not allowed.

 

Quote

Anyway, I hope the political commissar is understanding of my plight when I get back to friendly lines.

I'm sort of hoping I can get sent to one of those vacation camps out east for a bit of rest. I think they're called Gul-something or other.

 

If you had landed on German-held terrain, they'd regard you as a traitor and would shoot you on your return.
So, why not think about a carreer in the Luftwaffe, my friend?

Forget Soljanka - try Sauerkraut with buttered mashed potatoes and Bratwurst!

 

 

Edited May 1, 2018 by Wolfram-Harms

[Dakpilot]

Or a nice frozen rat if based at Pitomnik 

 

Cheers, Dakpilot

 

 

[Wolfram-Harms]

I don't think that German Luftwaffe pilots ever had conditions as bad as that, Dak.

But the average German soldier in Stalingrad - yeah, that was a different story...

[LukeFF]

15 hours ago, Wolfram-Harms said:

I don't think that German Luftwaffe pilots ever had conditions as bad as that, Dak.

 

They did.

[Dakpilot]

Let me clear I was never in Stalingrad ? but I have been in situations where all there was, was some garlic and onion soup and smoked bat... For weeks (I turned vegetarian for those periods ?) am sure that there were serious deprivation for Luft pilots based in the Kessel, but on the whole pilots are better fed than the 'grunts' 

 

Sorry for off topic

 

Cheers, Dakpilot 

[Wolfram-Harms]

4 hours ago, LukeFF said:

They did.

 

Do you have any sources for that, Luke ?

[RedKestrel]

On 5/1/2018 at 6:07 AM, Wolfram-Harms said:

 

That was mostly given up towards the end of WW1 already - by all sides.
And in communist Russia, "knights" were most definitely not allowed.

 

 

If you had landed on German-held terrain, they'd regard you as a traitor and would shoot you on your return.
So, why not think about a carreer in the Luftwaffe, my friend?

Forget Soljanka - try Sauerkraut with buttered mashed potatoes and Bratwurst!

 

 

Yeah that's the joke. The whole 'don't shoot a guy when his gear is down' thing is a fundamental misunderstanding of aerial combat, which basically boils down to 'murder the other guy when his back is turned'. Anyone who goes into it trying to be sporting or knightly is missing the entire point of the air war. Frankly, actual historical knightly combat wasn't too concerned with being gentlemanly to your foes either, that's largely a later invention.

I remember reading an account by a soviet pilot who bailed out behind enemy lines, spent several days sneaking back to friendly lines, and was then ruthlessly interrogated by intelligence services before being released to his squadron, so obviously not everyone was executed out of hand, but certainly not a pleasant welcome! Contrast that with a Canadian who got shot down over France, got hidden by the French resistance, played cards with German officers (while disguised as a french peasant) then finally got back to Britain 3 months later with a bag of illicit gambling winnings. RCAF authorities were like "well done, you" and he was back flying like two weeks later (this actually happened, gonna have to find the reference in the official histories).

Don't tempt me with sausage and sauerkraut, good sir, it is ungentlemanly to exploit a man's weakness in such a way!
 

[D3adCZE]

On 4/25/2018 at 9:45 PM, RedKestrel said:

...snip...

109s, even G6 are hell of the turners, one must know how to use his elevator trim. I managed to turn so tight that I ripped my wings in undamaged airplane. There is nothing funnier than turning into red planes and watching them panic, before they evaporate after being hit by few shells.

[LukeFF]

9 hours ago, Wolfram-Harms said:

Do you have any sources for that, Luke ?

 

Books, memoirs, you know, things like that. I don't have the time to be everyone's personal research assistant here.