Difficulty aiming in the La-5

[[TWB]Sauerkraut-]

I'd say I'm at least proficient with regards to aiming in the 109 and 190, and the spit. I'm still working on my aim in the yak, but I'm getting better.

 

When it comes to the La-5, I just can't seem to get a handle on it. As far as I can tell, it is a combination of:

 

1. The huge ass M-82 blocking your forward vision.

2. The lower muzzle velocity of the ShVAKs when compared to the Mg 151/20,  which I have more experience with.

3. The... "instability" of the La-5. Essentially, the combination of the nasty accelerated stall and knee jerk reactions to control input (the latter being good in a dogfight, not for keeping guns on target).

 

It's a shame too, because I really want to love the La-5. I would rather be in an La-5 than a yak, but this one thing keeps me from being able to employ it effectively.

 

Does anyone else notice this? If so, how did you overcome it?

[Field-Ops]

MG151/20 is actually some of the slowest cannons in the sim when it comes to velocity, as the Hispano and Shvaks are faster. If you are proficient with that you should be good with the Shvak.

 

That nose is actually detrimental to me hitting my target as well. I have better luck doing deflection shooting with the targets sweeping in from the sides rather than trying to guess where they are under my nose. It limits my targets that I like to engage but doing that has helped me get a better bang for my buck.

 

Fly it like a 190, dont get into turn fights if you can avoid it as even slightly pulling Gs is going to bleed speed and energy. The leading edge slats will pop out at small changes in AoA and they cause more drag than the 109 leading edge slats. Stay fast as much as possible.

[Voidhunger]

Shvak has higher muzzle velocity and higher rite of fire.

True is that due to the higher velocity and higher rate of fire its more difficult to score hit in soviet fighter for me. Mainly in Yaks and in Mig

[Bilbo_Baggins]

Shvak is far easier to aim and score with the high rate of fire.

 

I suspect this is just a problem with familiarization, as the LA5/Lagg-3 airframes with their unbelievable roll rate, stability and harmonization in controls are probably the best airframes in the sim for the precision shots. For me certainly.

Edited April 18, 2018 by Mcdaddy

[216th_Jordan]

4 hours ago, Field-Ops said:

MG151/20 is actually some of the slowest cannons in the sim when it comes to velocity, as the Hispano and Shvaks are faster.

 

4 hours ago, Voidhunger said:

Shvak has higher muzzle velocity and higher rite of fire.

 

4 hours ago, Mcdaddy said:

Shvak is far easier to aim and score with the high velocity and just as importantly, rate of fire.

 

No. No No.

 

Mg151 has a higher muzzle velocity than the Shvak. (at least with HE shells) Thats why its such a great weapon for snapshots. I really don't know where this myth of the slow 151 comes from.

Also with 700 rounds/min the 151 is only marginally lower in rate of fire.

 

I find the 151 to be a lot easier to aim with than the Shvak, and to be honest I really don't like the Shvak, the amount of lead necessary to hit something turning is nasty so you'll need to practice and practice and practice One thing you need to learn in the La-5 is to give the right amount of additional rudder input when pulling the elevator so that your aim is not thrown off to the side. Proper positioning to your enemy is a necessity in the La-5.

 

Edited April 18, 2018 by 216th_Jordan

[Finkeren]

The guns have nothing to do with it. The ShVAK and MG151 are close enough that it really doesn’t matter.

 

i have no trouble hitting with 2x nose-mounted ShVAK in the MiG, but just like the OP I can’t hit the broad side of a barn with the La-5 and the FN. I love the Lavochkins and the way they handle, and can definitely fly them well enough. The issue is solely gunnery.

 

I think it comes down to a combination of minor factors: Poor forward visibility, especially downwards, relatively high cockpit vibration, rather ineffective rudder (much unlike the MiG) combined with very sensitive ailerons.

Edited April 18, 2018 by Finkeren

[Feathered_IV]

I'm finding it difficult too.  I suspect it is because most of the time I'm firing in the turn and the La-5 doesn't make that so easy.  I usually have to wait until my target straightens out a bit before I can begin to score.  Beam attacks on bombers are pretty deadly though.

[CrazyDuck]

Yeah, it's not a ShVAK, it's a La-5 issue. The obstacle called ASh-82 does a nice job of obscuring half of your forward visibility field, and as if this wouldn't be enough they mounted the oil cooler intake on top of it. Next issue I have with Las is that they appear to be less stable and harder to control when it comes down to accurate aiming.

 

Poor forward visibility and relatively poor (unstable) gun platform, regardes of what your are shooting with, that's just how it is. La-5 (/5FN) series offer bunch of other candy tho.

[[APAF]VR_Spartan85]

It would be nice to be able to remove that armoured glass in the front windscreen of the FN... literally can’t see a damn thing

[RedKestrel]

I don't have the La-5 in Il-2 BoX but I do know that I am hopeless at gunnery with it in 1946. I always thought that the cannons being synchronized rather than firing through the propeller hub as in the yaks may have thrown me off a bit too...as if the rate of fire was slowed down, making it difficult to land enough shots on target. I'm not really sure that synchronization slows the rate of fire down enough to make a difference, it was just a feeling I had, considering I had much less trouble hitting in the yaks.

[Voidhunger]

hmmm I find it easier to hit with La5 than with Mig and Yaks.

[Guest deleted@134347]

It's all just a matter of practice, guys.

 

If you fly it long enough you'll get used to it and will be able to place nice hits on targets.

 

The real reason why it's difficult to land hits on the target:

- it's a nose gun, it shoots straight ahead, hence it's difficult to see/follow the tracers and adjust your aim

- big cowling blocks the view of tracers..

- you can't see tracers..

- tracers are difficult to see..

- can't adjust your aim because you can't easily follow the tracers..

..

..

tracers.. something..

 

after plenty of practice you'll start to feel them instead of seeing them. Turn up your game sound volume, add a bass-shaker to the seat and you will get that feeling earlier.

[RedKestrel]

19 minutes ago, moosya said:

It's all just a matter of practice, guys.

 

If you fly it long enough you'll get used to it and will be able to place nice hits on targets.

 

The real reason why it's difficult to land hits on the target:

- it's a nose gun, it shoots straight ahead, hence it's difficult to see/follow the tracers and adjust your aim

- big cowling blocks the view of tracers..

- you can't see tracers..

- tracers are difficult to see..

- can't adjust your aim because you can't easily follow the tracers..

..

..

tracers.. something..

 

after plenty of practice you'll start to feel them instead of seeing them. Turn up your game sound volume, add a bass-shaker to the seat and you will get that feeling earlier.

I probably do rely on tracers more than I realize.

[Finkeren]

39 minutes ago, moosya said:

It's all just a matter of practice, guys.

 

If you fly it long enough you'll get used to it and will be able to place nice hits on targets.

 

The real reason why it's difficult to land hits on the target:

- it's a nose gun, it shoots straight ahead, hence it's difficult to see/follow the tracers and adjust your aim

- big cowling blocks the view of tracers..

- you can't see tracers..

- tracers are difficult to see..

- can't adjust your aim because you can't easily follow the tracers..

..

..

tracers.. something..

 

after plenty of practice you'll start to feel them instead of seeing them. Turn up your game sound volume, add a bass-shaker to the seat and you will get that feeling earlier.

 

Definitely not a tracer thing for me.

 

I occasionally use AP-only ammo belts with no tracers on the La-5, and my aim is no worse without tracers than it is with tracers.

[Guest deleted@134347]

8 minutes ago, Finkeren said:

 

Definitely not a tracer thing for me.

 

I occasionally use AP-only ammo belts with no tracers on the La-5, and my aim is no worse without tracers than it is with tracers.

 

out of curiosity what do you use the La-5 AP ammo on?

[Finkeren]

10 minutes ago, moosya said:

 

out of curiosity what do you use the La-5 AP ammo on?

 

Anything. It’s plenty effective. Even though the mixed belt is probably slightly more effective overall, the combined benefit of not being immediately spotted when you open fire and the increased chance of an instant pilot kill (especially ammo conserving against bombers) makes it worth it.

[Guest deleted@134347]

2 minutes ago, Finkeren said:

 

Anything. It’s plenty effective. Even though the mixed belt is probably slightly more effective overall, the combined benefit of not being immediately spotted when you open fire and the increased chance of an instant pilot kill (especially ammo conserving against bombers) makes it worth it.

I see.. thank you!

 

you guys are snipers! I just spray and pray something sticks...

[Finkeren]

49 minutes ago, moosya said:

I see.. thank you!

 

you guys are snipers! I just spray and pray something sticks...

 

Oh no, you misunderstood. My shooting is absolutely terrible. That’s why it’s good to not have tracers, because my first burst is almost always gonna miss, and with an AP-belt there’s a chance my victim won’t even notice  And the chance of a pilot kill is nearly doubled with an all-AP belt, regardless if you are a good shot or not.

[danielprates]

Indeed whenever I get into a turn fight with the La5,  regardless of wether I should or shouldnt do it,  I end up in a situation where the target is totally obscured by the engine. Even raising my head as much as possible while still barelly mantaining the spot of the crosshairs within the reflector glass isn't enough (in most planes it is). 

 

So the first remedy would seem to be not to get in those kind of situations ... however,  if left without choice,  you can still do this:  fire a levelled spread ahead of him,  alongside his path,  and stop turning slightly so that he crosses it. This should force him to more or less fly through your bullet spread. I'm not saying it is a sure way to get a hit,  but may be worth the try. On the other hand,  since the La5 has such a short total fire duration,  it may also be pure waste of bullets.

[312_Lazy]

ShVAKs in La-5 are indeed synchronized as RedKestrel pointed out. You can expect about 30% lower RoF compared to firing through propeller hub. That means that La-5 actually fires significantly less projectiles per second  minute than say LaGG or Yak-1B (1100 [2xShVAK] vs 1600 [ShVAK+UB]). So it is possible to just scratch a messer in situations where LaGG would reliably hit it.

Shvetsov radial makes it even more difficult.

So just relax, sometimes it's not completely your fault when you miss.

Edited April 18, 2018 by 312_Lazy

[Finkeren]

WW2 era synchronisation did not lower rate of fire by as much as 30%. The speed of rotation of the prop and the fact that multiple firing impulses per revolution means, that the drop in rate of fire is quite small, unlike in WW1 where prop rpm was far lower and the gear generally only gave one impulse per revolution.

[Barnacles]

14 hours ago, itsthatguy said:

I'd say I'm at least proficient with regards to aiming in the 109 and 190, and the spit. I'm still working on my aim in the yak, but I'm getting better.

 

When it comes to the La-5, I just can't seem to get a handle on it. As far as I can tell, it is a combination of:

 

1. The huge ass M-82 blocking your forward vision.

2. The lower muzzle velocity of the ShVAKs when compared to the Mg 151/20,  which I have more experience with.

3. The... "instability" of the La-5. Essentially, the combination of the nasty accelerated stall and knee jerk reactions to control input (the latter being good in a dogfight, not for keeping guns on target).

 

It's a shame too, because I really want to love the La-5. I would rather be in an La-5 than a yak, but this one thing keeps me from being able to employ it effectively.

 

Does anyone else notice this? If so, how did you overcome it?

I found changing the convergence affected where the shells went relative to the centre of the crosshair. At 400m convergence you generally have to aim a tiny bit higher or lower ( I forget which) with some shots compared to the other planes, all things being equal. To experiment, use the time compression feature, zoom in and look closely at the tracers and look at where they go with different convergences.

Edited April 18, 2018 by 71st_AH_Barnacles

[312_Lazy]

44 minutes ago, Finkeren said:

WW2 era synchronisation did not lower rate of fire by as much as 30%. The speed of rotation of the prop and the fact that multiple firing impulses per revolution means, that the drop in rate of fire is quite small, unlike in WW1 where prop rpm was far lower and the gear generally only gave one impulse per revolution.

Yep, 30% is maybe too much:

Quote

синхронные версии, устанавливаемые на истребители Ла-5 и Ла-7 в зависимости от режима работы двигателя имели темп стрельбы значительно скромнее 550-750 выстр/мин

Still, it's about 20% which is certainly noticeable.

[RedKestrel]

7 minutes ago, 312_Lazy said:

Yep, 30% is maybe too much:

Still, it's about 20% which is certainly noticeable.

Where did you find that quote? I remember searching all over to try and find what the RoF on t he La-5 would be vs. the Yak installations and couldn't find it. (I can't read russian so maybe its a source I couldnt find anyway)

[Stryker07]

As far as hitting the target, I think the La-5 has a superior gunsight location to most other russian fighters. It's on a pedestal and I have to imagine it was put there to negate some of the ginormous radial engine sitting on front of it. I read a book about fighting in the South Pacific, and P-40 ace Robert DeHaven scored a kill on a Ki-61 Tony that he couldn't even see, and if his squad mates hadn't been watching he would have never known. The deflection was such that the Tony was completely out of sight under the engine, DeHaven essentially hosed the whole way as he pulled his nose through where the proper deflection would be. 

 

Personally, when I have to make a high deflection shot, I raise my head as high as it will go and adjust using the tracers. And as all the experten seem to say, the closer you are, the easier it is to score hits, and the less lead you will need.

[[TWB]Sauerkraut-]

On 4/18/2018 at 1:23 AM, Voidhunger said:

Shvak has higher muzzle velocity and higher rite of fire.

True is that due to the higher velocity and higher rate of fire its more difficult to score hit in soviet fighter for me. Mainly in Yaks and in Mig

 

Say that again, but slowly.

 

I'm trying not to be rude, but how on Earth does a higher muzzle velocity and a higher rate of fire make aiming more difficult? 

[Voidhunger]

Well, its about experience only I fly mostly german planes and sometimes La5 so when i switch sides its difficult for me to hit something with vvs planes. Im good with La5 but with mig and yak I often overshoot target.  I don know the rof of spitfire cannons , but its easy to hit target with them like with german cannons.

[312_Lazy]

13 hours ago, RedKestrel said:

Where did you find that quote? I remember searching all over to try and find what the RoF on t he La-5 would be vs. the Yak installations and couldn't find it. (I can't read russian so maybe its a source I couldnt find anyway)

I found it here: http://www.airwar.ru/weapon/guns/shvak.html

[MarderIV]

18 hours ago, itsthatguy said:

I'm trying not to be rude, but how on Earth does a higher muzzle velocity and a higher rate of fire make aiming more difficult? 

 

I think he's just having a hard time adjusting to higher muzzle velocities when performing deflection shots. He did say it was him having difficulty; not so much in a general sense but an issue particular to his experience. 

 

I know I had some issues transitioning from deflection shooting with cannons in the 190 after flying it for a very long time and then taking on a campaign in the MiG-3. These are personal challenges. Other people might have a harder or easier time adjusting when transitioning, specially if the guns on one plane just "clicks" with the pilot whereas the other one won't without significant effort.

[LLv34_Wmaker]

On 4/18/2018 at 1:07 PM, 216th_Jordan said:

No. No No.

 

Mg151 has a higher muzzle velocity than the Shvak. (at least with HE shells) Thats why its such a great weapon for snapshots. I really don't know where this myth of the slow 151 comes from.

 

MG 151/20 (that is the cannon being talked about in the quote to which you gave the above reply) HE rounds do have a slower muzzle velocity in game than HE Shvak rounds.

[216th_Jordan]

7 hours ago, LLv34_Wmaker said:

 

MG 151/20 (that is the cannon being talked about in the quote to which you gave the above reply) HE rounds do have a slower muzzle velocity in game than HE Shvak rounds.

 

I don't know your sources but I'm familiar with these:

 

Mg151/20

Muzzle velocity: 805 m/s (M-Geschoss)

 

Shvak:

Muzzle Velocity: 790 m/s (HE-Frag.)

 

The speeds differ with projectiles but those are the fastest of each gun.

[312_Lazy]

Minengeshoss rounds are 20% lighter than AP. That's probably the reason for higher muzzle velocity. At the same time, lower density projectile loses speed faster (compared to AP or other HE).

Edited April 22, 2018 by 312_Lazy

[LLv34_Wmaker]

1 hour ago, 216th_Jordan said:

I don't know your sources but I'm familiar with these:

 

Mg151/20

Muzzle velocity: 805 m/s (M-Geschoss)

 

Shvak:

Muzzle Velocity: 790 m/s (HE-Frag.)

 

The speeds differ with projectiles but those are the fastest of each gun.

 

My sources are the parameters in the game's gtp-files: https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/32221-109-guns/?page=4&tab=comments#comment-597225

 

805 m/s for the MG151/20 HE and 815 m/s for the Shvak.