Horrible weather

[InProgress]

In carieer I get horrible weather, especially on moscow when flying bf110, it's so bad that word horrible is not able to describe horror of flying like this. It's complete disaster... raining, clouds so low that you can crash in a moment, when you look away for a second on left or right then look again forward you will completely lose sight of your comrades. 

AI fly into clouds and then you are lost even worst, navigation is nearly impossible and wind is so strong that it feels like flying king tiger. And HQ expects me to attack ground units in this rain, mist and strong wind where 360° turn takes like a minute. You have to fly so low to see anything that all aaa guns in russia will open fire on you.

 

Is this actually realistic? Would they allow flying in such a horrible conditions, it's a death wish, only one guy made it back from this nightmare and it was not even me. I had no opportunity to read any book about Luftwaffe but in new RAF pilot's books, they never had to fly in bad weather and one time when they were send to, flight leader send many newer guys back because it was too hard, kept flying with few more but after a while also went back due to horrible visibility.

 

[Finkeren]

I experience far less horrible weather in the career mode than I did in the campaign before. To me it seems appropriately rare that I have to fly in poor conditions.

[InProgress]

Rare maybe, point is if it should be in there, i get rain etc. But low cloud level, rain, strong wind. All this combined make mission a bit ridiculous.. shouldn't flying be suspended for this weather? It's even more funny because it seems like this weather does not affect anything, you still "see" the same activity. Fighters attack you like they have xray in their eyes, I can't see my comrades that are 100m in front of me but enemy fighter can spot you from far away and engage.

 

Also this only happens as 110 moscow campaign, never had this on stalingrad or other planes like fw190.

Edited April 11, 2018 by InProgress

[Gambit21]

We don't have unsafe flying weather in the sim. Even the heaviest rain still allows plenty of visibility. I welcome the variability - I don't see the problem. Sometimes it rains.

[Yogiflight]

I find it a fair question. Where sorties done by really bad weather conditions? I too, think, it doesn't make any sense to fly sorties, when the weather is so bad, that you hardly can find the target. And then you have AI, that simply has no issues with bad weather. They can see, as if there were no clouds or rain. They spot and identify you long before you even can guess, there might be something. And there are always those guys, who think, more difficult is better, even if unrealistic. This has nothing to do with immersion. Bad weather yes, but realistic flying conditions.

[Gambit21]

If it happened all the time fine, but here and there for a change-up seems reasonable.

 

I added a few poor weather missions to my campaign simply to make things more interesting.

 

Again - we don't have truly poor visibility with the current weather pre-sets, at least to the extent that flying is a challenge.

[InProgress]

Really? Clouds on 500m covering entire sky, flying over enemy territory on low alt, overcast (not even a rain), 7 in the morning and possibly the strongest wind. How is that not unsafe condition? Maybe you are pro and can fly like this, but point is, if it's actually realistic to send to send mission like this? How the hell can you find anything when flying so low, every aaa will be able to kill you. AI flying into clouds, ai has wallhack so he does not care but I do, because I lose contact with them and no longer can see them. Enemy fighters will spot you always (just like at night) and you wont spot them.

I am not sure if you even had this kind of mission, but for sure that was no way of plenty visibility. Like I said, flying low, can see something around but you won't see any roads, lakes etc to navigate, not even mentioning finding your objectives (that can even be moving). If you fly high then you won't see anything due to clouds covering entire ground...

 

Edit: I don't see how bad weather can be fun change, it happens then you don't fly and day skips. Or jusf few hours, maybe getting cought in bad weather during mission, but starting flight like this, it feels unrealistic, just because it brings challenge does not make it fun, flying against F16 can be also challenging, does not mean I wouldn't like to see them in game because nice difference and challanger..

 

And really don't understand how can you say that game does not have bad visibility... there are different stages of weather, wind from weak to strong, rain to overcast, clouds or not up to entire sky covered with heavy dark clouds on 500m. Really, again, how is that not bad weather with low visibility? Wish I had screenshot.

Edited April 11, 2018 by InProgress

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

Frankly, I feel I'm not getting enough inclement weather in any of the over-a-dozen careers I've started.

 

I've only seen the dual cloud layers a single time, most days are completely clear, "cloudy" days consist of a handful of clouds that are kilometers apart, etc. The wind is never bad, there's hardly ever any turbulence, I haven't had a single rainy day...

 

I want more bad weather or at the very least more clouds.

Edited April 11, 2018 by Space_Ghost

[56RAF_Roblex]

You have a valid point about it being unrealistic that the AI can see through clouds while you are blind in an offline mission.   OTOH in MP I feel bad weather is good.   Sometimes in real life they did do missions in bad weather because there was less chance of the defenders being up patrolling and if they were  then they might not see you.  If you know that the cloud base is 500m above the target and are confident you can find the target using a stopwatch etc. then you might be able to drop out of the clouds and bomb something then duck back in the clouds again and fly home without being shot at by either fighters or AAA.      500m is over 1500ft and I have taken off  in that many times in real life.  I draw the line at 1000ft. 

Edited April 11, 2018 by 56RAF_Roblex

[InProgress]

AI is leading a flight not me, I try to follow them but they often fly really fast, fly into clouds, getting lost, fighters will patrol area anyway so it's not even safe to fly like this to avoid fighters.

[Wolf8312]

I'm not a pro by any means but after a few months I can fly, and navigate generally with no problem on the moscow maps even in winter if I concentrate! As it's probably the most difficult map to navigate on, the moscow maps taught me to navigate really, and because of the weather, you have to fly from river to river, and town to town.

 

Navigation is the main thing really, and as you cant really rely on your comrades/AI waiting for you, I find you have to know where you are going from the beggining even if you are not the leader. Trying to follow them can lead to getting lost, as they do just sometimes vanish!

 

Is it realistic is a good question though, but personally I think the weather is what makes the moscow map so special and atmospheric, as you really get the sense that the Germans doom/winter is fast setting in. Thats how I felt when I first flew the mid autumn campaign, wow winters coming, I'm actually here and time is running out! This wouldnt be nearly as well conveyed if the maps were all sunny all the time (in that case it could be anywhere) and so even if it's not perfectly realistic (not saying it isnt as I will wait for others to chime in) I think I like it better as it is. I'm guessing they probably did fly in terrible conditions alot of the time too, as after all they desperately needed to get to moscow as quickly as possible, so I would imagine they were more willing to risk less than ideal weather conditions. I think games like this are entitled to take a bit of poetic licence sometimes in order perhaps to better represent or symbolize the preconceptions that people like me expect. The weather kind of is the moscow map and a big part of why the germans were defeated!

 

One of the missions I found the most incredible to fly in VR was a mid autumn mission in which its dark (just getting light) and the weather is awful. The mission is simply to get home in one piece with no combat whatsoever, it's just you and a map, and you have to survive. Fantastic beautiful mission that is just dripping with rain sodden atmosphere.

Edited April 11, 2018 by Wolf8312

[Gambit21]

InProgress - please know I'm not trying to take you to task here.

 

That said, here's the translation of your posts for me personally...

 

"I don't want any adverse conditions (edit: 'or adversity) when I fly a wartime mission"

 

 

Edited April 11, 2018 by Gambit21

[dburne]

From my experience so far at least flying in the Career over Kuban, the weather has not been all that bad. Some heavy cloud cover at times but that is about it.

There have been times our flight has not flown though due to bad weather.

[seafireliv]

I`ve been waiting for really bad weather in Campaign and after quite a few flights not had any. I know that it was never wise to fly in bad weather, but what I`ve read on the Eastern Front they`d sometimes be sent up in it due to a `needs must` situation.

[InProgress]

No. The translation is, if it's actually realistic and if yes then to give some advantage of flying like this, enemy having hard time spotting you, flying over clouds "on timer". For now it's just ridiculous, flying path over eneny defences, airfields on such a low alt that you and ai will get killed, fighters spotting you and engaging. While you barley see your own planes. I had 3 missions like this, every single one was 1-2 guys staying alive, it's nothing more for now than a waste of pilots and planes. If game gives this kind of mission, some simple radio commands to ask leader for position or something and make AI stop flying into clouds, they will keep formation in there but you wont.

[Gambit21]

You can use the lowest overcast and the heaviest rain or snow "5" and still fly around just fine.

 

If we had a truly low-vis setting then I could script a truly hairy "caught in a squal" just make it home alive air start mission (because you wouldn't take off in those conditions)

 

As it stands weather bad enough to scrub a mission isn't something we have at the moment.

 

InProgress, AI notes aside - still the same to my ears. "It's hard, and dangerous, and my guys are dying" 

Same same.

 

 

[Porkins]

Maybe I have not run into the worst weather, but so far I don't have any complaints. I find thick and low clouds exciting on Kuban especially, due to the mountains. Have had some pretty thrilling moments diving down into clouds in a 110 to pick up speed with a VVS fighter on my tail, hoping I see the ground coming soon enough to level out. 

[7.GShAP/Silas]

There are plenty of accounts of Soviet aircraft regiments having a mission to carry out, running into heavy storms, and having to adapt, overcome and continue to carry out their mission regardless with no expectation of turning for home.  Some would get lost and have to find their way.

 

I mean, look.  One account that stuck in my memory were two IL-2 pilots being tasked to attack and destroy a vital bridge alone(they had the only two IL-2s left in the regiment) .  They attacked and missed with their bombs, barely surviving the AA from the huge columns of troops and vehicles crossing the bridge and returned to their base.  As soon as they landed their aircraft were loaded again and they were to go back to the bridge, their superior telling them that they will fly to the bridge non-stop until it is destroyed.  One pilot said to the other that if they missed again, he would fly into the bridge to destroy it.  That's real war, for all the marbles and nobody goes home until it's over(you would have nothing to go home to anyway) .

 

Pilots not being required(or allowed) to fly in inclement weather is pure wanton luxury.  We need much, much nastier weather.

 

The AI being able to cheat in bad weather, though, isn't very fun.  Necessary, maybe, so they can offer a challenge, but something more advanced would be better.  It's similar to the AI being able to shoot you though foliage in ArmA.

[Semor76]

1 hour ago, InProgress said:

In carieer I get horrible weather, especially on moscow when flying bf110, it's so bad that word horrible is not able to describe horror of flying like this. It's complete disaster... raining, clouds so low that you can crash in a moment, when you look away for a second on left or right then look again forward you will completely lose sight of your comrades. 

AI fly into clouds and then you are lost even worst, navigation is nearly impossible and wind is so strong that it feels like flying king tiger. And HQ expects me to attack ground units in this rain, mist and strong wind where 360° turn takes like a minute. You have to fly so low to see anything that all aaa guns in russia will open fire on you.

 

Is this actually realistic? Would they allow flying in such a horrible conditions, it's a death wish, only one guy made it back from this nightmare and it was not even me. I had no opportunity to read any book about Luftwaffe but in new RAF pilot's books, they never had to fly in bad weather and one time when they were send to, flight leader send many newer guys back because it was too hard, kept flying with few more but after a while also went back due to horrible visibility.

 

+100  I´m with you. Its only the Bf-110 career at Moscow. Makes no sense to me.

[Gambit21]

Improvise - Adapt - Overcome 

THIS..IS SPAR...I mean RUSSIA!

 

[InProgress]

8 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

Improvise - Adapt - Overcome 

THIS..IS SPAR...I mean RUSSIA!

 

I never said it's too hard plz delete. I just wait to get it realistic, and ai behavior is breaking any "fun" that would come from this missions. Hell, I would like this game to be even harder, waiting for real flak fire like in cliffs of dover, where entire sky would be covered with black clouds and not this one pathetic aaa gun shooting at fw190 on 4k going 600km/h... 

Tho I don't know if in russia there was heavy flak like in uk, but logic says it should be in certain places, moscow borders, stalingrad, important airfields like pitomnik etc.

[Gambit21]

I hear ya - AI will improve over time I think. However the friendly AI has the same advantage.

[ShamrockOneFive]

I'm flying a whole bunch of Career modes including a Bf110 career over Moscow and yeah the weather is pretty bad there in the autumn. I've been dealing with rain and low clouds there too. I LOVE it because it fits the time period and the weather reports I've read about for Moscow in the autumn of 1941. It's not the greatest time to launch a military offensive and yet....

 

Conversely, some of my Kuban spring missions have been hot (25c) and unlimited ceiling with 0/10 clouds for missions on end. This is what happens with the weather. I think its rather realistic and none of the conditions I've seen are not flyable. I've read about pilots dealing with the same and worse.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

There is a reason why you only see this with the Bf-110 in Moscow.

 

As winter came, weather became progressively worse, and eventually the German fighter groups had to call off operations. Many other aircraft types were also grounded as conditions did not allow for safe employment. This did not apply to the Bf-110 - it flew low-level missions so the cloud base wasn't an issue, it had two engines and two crewmembers so it could fare better in adverse conditions, and factually it was a heavier and more stable aircraft which made operations in adverse weather less dangerous.

 

I can't find the exact quote but Panzerbär had posted reports alluding to this. Soviet aviation continued operations as usual, and during that period encounters with enemy aircraft were almost exclusively involving Bf-110s.

Edited April 12, 2018 by 216th_Lucas_From_Hell

[InProgress]

1 minute ago, 216th_Lucas_From_Hell said:

This did not apply to the Bf-110

Make sense, but why russian fighters fly like it's a sunny warm summer day? Doing this mission would be ok if enemy was not there (and even if, it should at least have hard time spotting you) but i hope and believe  AI fix will come and day and fix all this.

I am still curious about navigation, i know i could get to target on my own as i did after i lost contact with my entire team, but should there be some radio contact to find each other after losing visual contact?

[Yogiflight]

4 minutes ago, InProgress said:

I am still curious about navigation, i know i could get to target on my own as i did after i lost contact with my entire team, but should there be some radio contact to find each other after losing visual contact?

IRL the cruising speed was not so high, that you hardly can come into the formation and hold the formation. Largest problem in 110 careers at the moment, is a cruising speed of 380km/h with 2x 250kg + 4x 50kg, plus AI that accelerates with emergency power after having reached the flight altitude, which makes it hard to come into the formation. I think when the devs reduce the cruising speeds for some aircrafts, it will be much easier to do.

[InProgress]

Yep.. i have lots of problems with this, not only on bf110. AI always keeps max "green" power possible and since it's AI they are perfect at it, they can climb on it and speed faster, i often end up lower and a bit far away and must keep using combat power to catch them... they are always in such a hurry

[sniperton]

24 minutes ago, Yogiflight said:

AI accelerates with emergency power after having reached the flight altitude, which makes it hard to come into the formation. I think when the devs reduce the cruising speeds for some aircrafts, it will be much easier to do.

Just as a side note, it would be important to gather experiences in this regard. In my (limited) experience, P-40 squads have the same issue, while flying the MiG-3 the issue is much less pronounced. In mixed squads consisting of Migs and Ratas, even the relatively slow Ratas can keep up with the MiGs, but to do so they burn up so much fuel that they are likely to run out of it at the end of the mission.

As to the OP's question, I have little doubts that some LW and VVS squads eventually flew in bad weather as well, but I doubt they did so the way the AI does it. The AI doesn't seem to be affected by bad visibility, it has no problems with flying straight in clouds at high speeds and in tight formation, while humans would adapt to the situation by either climbing above or diving below the clouds, and/or reducing speed, eventually even turning on nav lights to avoid collision and to make follow-up easier. In contrast, the AI seems to flight missions as if weather were not modelled in the game at all.

[InProgress]

Ok, i got some pictures how it really looks like.

 

1. This is how it looks like on 500m... and AI often get into clouds like this, good luck finding them after this. (500m)

Spoiler

 

2. Mostly we fly like this, yeaa totally great visibility... (400m)

Spoiler

 

3. Now on 300m alt. Here, I agree, visibility is not bad BUT your flight don't fly on this level, they are on 400-500m...

Spoiler

 

Edited April 12, 2018 by InProgress

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

1 hour ago, InProgress said:

Make sense, but why russian fighters fly like it's a sunny warm summer day? Doing this mission would be ok if enemy was not there (and even if, it should at least have hard time spotting you) but i hope and believe  AI fix will come and day and fix all this.

I am still curious about navigation, i know i could get to target on my own as i did after i lost contact with my entire team, but should there be some radio contact to find each other after losing visual contact?

 

The Soviet fighters are flying in the campaign because when the weather turned sour they were still flying back in the day. All things considered it was a combination of being used to adverse meteorological conditions (what was novelty weather for the Germans was half the year for Soviet pilots), the desperation of defending your capital against a well-equipped enemy, the knowledge that if the weather is bad the enemy fighters stay home (which makes the job easier), stubborn commanders and plain necessity. Low-level reconnaissance, ground attack and bomber/transport intercepts were commonplace during these conditions because the enemy doesn't expect fighter activity with such horrible weather and thus acts a little more reckless thinking there's no danger in the air, making for easier targets. That is not to say that the weather didn't claim many Soviet pilots flying these missions, of course.

 

The AI being unhindered by meteorology is a different issue that applies to every AI in game, but I'm sure it'll be improved in due time. This applies to the radio commands as well, if there was a "bearing to friendly" radio call it would be neat. At the same time, as it was in real life in such situations, if the weather is bad and you find yourself alone, it's time for us non-AI folks to admit defeat, turn home and live with a failed mission. Had to abort a few missions myself where for various reasons the group got scattered and going alone became equivalent with a death wish.

[Yogiflight]

1 hour ago, 216th_Lucas_From_Hell said:

At the same time, as it was in real life in such situations, if the weather is bad and you find yourself alone, it's time for us non-AI folks to admit defeat, turn home and live with a failed mission. Had to abort a few missions myself where for various reasons the group got scattered and going alone became equivalent with a death wish.

Absolutely agreed. I had to do so as well. Being alone, without knowing, where your squadmates are, or even if they still are, gives you the need to think, if it was not better to return home. I know it is hard for us game players, because after all, this is what we are, but if we really want some immersion, we should try to stay alive where ever it goes. And then we sometimes have to make hard decisions.

[Herne]

As my old sergeant major used to say "If it ain't raining, it ain't training"

[Yogiflight]

5 hours ago, =FEW=Herne said:

As my old sergeant major used to say "If it ain't raining, it ain't training"

LOL.

For us it was ARMORED INFANTRY weather. But our IFVs SPz Marder were flying much deeper.

Edited April 12, 2018 by Yogiflight

[seafireliv]

Well I noticed the AI is blind in clouds, surely it suffers some kind of disadvantage in really bad weather too?

 

I just haven`t had any real bad weather in Career to test.

[senseispcc]

In my career on the Russian side I am at the 12 November 1941 date and bad weather days are until now very rare...