Proper ammunition belting

[KingstonDE]

Hi gents,

According to the German Schießfiebel, we should have the following historic belting for the MG151 / 20 and MG/FF, even if we lack the right ammunition in BoX.

Historic belting vs all other planes except four-engined bomber:

3x Mine + 1 Brandgranate + 1x Panzerbrandgranate ( Phosphor ) = 3x HE + 1x incendiary round + 1x AP incendiary with phosphor

Since the mine shells are not properly simulated, we do not have a real Brandgranate or a real Panzerbrandgranate ( Phosphor ). It would be at least nice,

if we would get 3x HE + 1x AP to simulate the historical german belting in this game and not that, what we have now 1x AP + 2x HE .

greeting

Little_D

[VesseL]

Hi Little D.

That german ammo, or the minengeschoss lack is very odd thing. It should be, about the most destructive ammo in that time. And it was the main ammo used, but it is not "modeled". I wonder how one model destructiveness. It should not be hard to model the raw destructive power. It doesnt matter the most, how the ammunition make the damage, if the final effect is what it should be. So it doesnt matter how we call the belt or what name we give to some modeled ammo. The only thing that matter in game is the demolition.

 

Edited April 12, 2018 by VesseL

[Pupo]

Hi,

 

Currently the game only models 2 20mm rounds for the German guns. One is AP, the other is HE. The HE in game is clearly trying to replicate the Minegeshoss, since it has an explosive charge of  20gr, 10 times as much as of the equivalent Russian 20mm shell. Currently the in-game belting for the 109(F&G) 20mm cannon is AP-HE-HE. I did not check other airplanes, but I would assume the belting to be the same. I recommend you gather some documentation the correct beltings and PM the devs with this data.

 

Regarding the effectiveness of the German 20mm shells when compared to the Russian 20mm shells,  I did some testing awhile ago. You can read more here.

 

Cheers

[Bilbo_Baggins]

3 hours ago, Pupo said:

 The HE in game is clearly trying to replicate the Minegeshoss, since it has an explosive charge of  20gr, 10 times as much as of the equivalent Russian 20mm shell. 

 

 

 

Pupo,

 

I don't understand how the HE explosive in-game is supposed to be 10x as much as the Russian shell. Apart from the big explosion puff created on hit, the shooting results certainly don't correlate with this increase in explosive. It hardly does any more damage than the Russian HE.

Edited April 12, 2018 by Mcdaddy

[=EXPEND=13SchwarzeHand]

3 hours ago, Mcdaddy said:

 

Pupo,

 

I don't understand how the HE explosive in-game is supposed to be 10x as much as the Russian shell. Apart from the big explosion puff created on hit, the shooting results certainly don't correlate with this increase in explosive. It hardly does any more damage than the Russian HE.

 

The parameter for explosives that are contained in that file for the Minengechoß are about 7 times of the soviet HE. You should keep in mind that we do not know how the output of that model is derived and it is pure guesswork that there is a linear relationship between that factor and the damage done, i.e. that the damage is also 7 times bigger.

Edited April 12, 2018 by =EXPEND=SchwarzeDreizehn

[JaffaCake]

59 minutes ago, =EXPEND=SchwarzeDreizehn said:

 

The parameter for explosives that are contained in that file for the Minengechoß are about 7 times of the soviet HE. You should keep in mind that we do not know how the output of that model is derived and it is pure guesswork that there is a linear relationship between that factor and the damage done, i.e. that the damage is also 7 times bigger.

 

 

We do know to some extent. As far as I am aware the latest thing devs said on the HE damage model is that LW ammo has more numerous fragments which have higher speed and lower mass than the comparable VVS ammo. I do not believe anything was said regarding shockwave modelling.

 

Whether that means the LW ammo is more damaging I do not know, but from my POV the current HE damage model is extremely flawed. What we effectively have is a fragmentation round, rather than HE round.

[=EXPEND=13SchwarzeHand]

9 minutes ago, JaffaCake said:

 

 

We do know to some extent. As far as I am aware the latest thing devs said on the HE damage model is that LW ammo has more numerous fragments which have higher speed and lower mass than the comparable VVS ammo. I do not believe anything was said regarding shockwave modelling.

 

Whether that means the LW ammo is more damaging I do not know, but from my POV the current HE damage model is extremely flawed. What we effectively have is a fragmentation round, rather than HE round.

 

Actually we do not know at all, since we do not know the DM code. The extend is very limited an based on guesswork  I agree with the rest of your post.

Edited April 12, 2018 by =EXPEND=SchwarzeDreizehn

[Mauf]

This is my guessing for why HE are modelled the way they are right now:

 

I would guess the reason the devs try to model the HE ammo by creating something like a fragmentation round is to avoid the shortcomings of the other modelling approaches, aka: A proper cell pressure simulation (which would be the proper way) or flat out sphere or box shaped area effects (which from what I understand CloD uses). The pressure simulation requires a lot more modelling and detail which I guess isn't in place and would probably require a whole lot more manpower than is available. The sphere-shaped AOE approach would be unable to account for structural specifics and would lead to the weird damage modelling that CloD suffers where explosive ammo types practically become control-cable/pilot seeking bullets as the AOE effect by its nature will reach sensitive components easily that would be shielded by other components (as an AOE approach has no way to account for what is actually reachable for the blast wave in what manner). You would either have to then model different damage susceptibilities for different damage types (a complicated messy nightmare on its own) to get more realistic behaviour back (which CloD IMHO fails at currently).

 

The current approach, as strange as it might look, is somewhat prudent. By substituting the explosion with a "blast wave" of extra shrapnell, you could get a wave shaped damage modelling that is, thanks to the ability to model projectile penetration paths and whatnot, able to adhere to the structure limitations while still giving a sort-off blast-wave shaped damage model. It seems a shortcut to circumvent much bigger headaches. Hopefully, coming a good revenue stream, we get a more accurate modelling of proper shockwave damage for the HE ammo types in the future.

[Pupo]

@Mcdaddy

 

There are bunch of parameters we can read from the game files on the shells. Unfortunately it is very hard to derive the Damage Model from those. You can see these parameters being discussed here. The particular file being discussed there seems to determine the armor penetration, mass, drag, etc.. of a particular shell. There is an additional set of files that determines the explosive effect of a shell. And on these files the only parameter seems to be the explosive charge of the shell, where the German shells have 20g, and the Russian shells 2.6g. If there is such a thing as a "number of shrapnel" parameter, it is hard-coded.