PE-2 Gunner Pilot Sniping (Not what you think!)

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

The issue with Ace level gunner AI has been done to death, but I was wondering;

 

Has anybody noticed a difference in the likelihood of getting sniped when flying a 109 as opposed to the 190?  In my anecdotal experience, I've found that if I flub up and find myself trailing a pe-2 in a 109, it far more often than not leads to a (usually quick) pilot snipe; whereas in the 190 it is more likely to lead to engine damage instead.

 

I began to wonder why this is.  Is it the pilot's head position?  Angle of the armored glass?  Thickness of the armored glass?  Or some combination of those factors?

 

Anybody have an answer on this?  Or does your 109 vs 190 experience seem different than mine?

[Haza]

I'm sure that RAF Bomber Command should have hired a load of Pe-2 gunners to fulfill the vacancies that they had, as I'm sure the war would have been over in months with no bomber loses and all carried out during daylight.

 

However, joking aside, in WOL, I find 109 is usually a PK, whereas the 190 is engine damage, so basically the same as you.

 

Regards 

[Yogiflight]

The radial engine of the 190 has, seen from the front, a much larger hit area, than the engine of the 109. So rounds that would pass the engine of the 109 and hit the pilot, might hit the engine and damage it instead of the pilot in the 190.

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

What is the AI gunner actually aiming at?  Does anybody know?

[migmadmarine]

I've always assumed they aim for center mass, which would be essentially where the pilot is on most of these aircraft. 

[Finkeren]

The Fw 190 has the armored ring at the front of the cowling. Together with the armored windscreen (which is only standard on the Bf 109Gs - not the earlier ones) this means that the 190 is armored on an appreciable portion of the plane’s silhouette, when viewed from the front.

[Pupo]

8 hours ago, hrafnkolbrandr said:

What is the AI gunner actually aiming at?  Does anybody know?

 

 

If you put some enemy aircraft parked in front of a AI gunner, the gunner will aim at the "center of volume" of the aircraft, as in, the middle of it. Typically this means the cockpit area, when fighting at a fighter from the side and back, and the engine block, when firing from the front.

[Lusekofte]

9 hours ago, Yogiflight said:

The radial engine of the 190 has, seen from the front, a much larger hit area, than the engine of the 109. So rounds that would pass the engine of the 109 and hit the pilot, might hit the engine and damage it instead of the pilot in the 190.

 

Pilots converting from other fighters into a LA 5 wrote they much more confident going head on in  it with a radial in front of them. In other words they felt safer

Edited April 8, 2018 by 216th_LuseKofte

[Haza]

5 minutes ago, 216th_LuseKofte said:

 

Pilots converting from other fighters into a LA 5 wrote they much more confident going head on in  it with a radial in front of them. In other words they felt safer

 

I bet they did as they were never behind a Pe-2.

[Lusekofte]

FW 190 pilots and other attacking fortresses over Europe , was not too happy about it either. You guys seems to believe attacking bombers should be easy. I can tell you this, if it become easy, all you would get in servers today is dogfight. Bombers would be AI only. Probably the reasons they are not on priority, and we get this Bodenplatte crap going. I am so fed up with this whining about a little resistance from armchair  pilots

 

You should try to fly the PE 2 on servers and see how unvounerable you feels

 

[Haza]

Just now, 216th_LuseKofte said:

FW 190 pilots and other attacking fortresses over Europe , was not too happy about it either. You guys seems to believe attacking bombers should be easy. I can tell you this, if it become easy, all you would get in servers today is dogfight. Bombers would be AI only. Probably the reasons they are not on priority, and we get this Bodenplatte crap going. I am so fed up with this whining about a little resistance from armchair  pilots

 

You should try to fly the PE 2 on servers and see how unvounerable you feels

 

 

 

Oh Lusekofte,

 

With all due respect old-timer, please tell me which MP server I shall find your Pe-2 stats to see all the hours that you put in, or are you just sat in your arm chair telling us to do as you say rather than as you do? I believe that the original post was asking the question regarding the damage that the Pe-2 inflicts and I do not believe that anybody has said that it should be easy to attack a Pe-2 so not sure why you have gone off half cocked.   I'm currently reading a book regarding RAF Bomber Command and it is interesting to see the number of bombers lost owing to enemy fighters and that ratio, which isn't certainly demonstrated here.

 

Therefore, please do not de-rail this enjoyable discussion with your wild outbursts.  In addition, I like the way you have turned this discussion into your gripe about Bodenplatte and your belief that it is crap, but I would argue that perhaps it has nothing to do with the bombers or the Pe-2 and perhaps has more to do with what Jason believes will sell, therefore, perhaps you should do less whining in your rocking chair and let us have the discussion

 

Regards

 

Haza

Edited April 8, 2018 by Haza

[Lusekofte]

Long time gone. i fly coconut occasionally, I am not saying the altitude. But you can see my stats on FNBF, last time dead after 15 minutes second death after the mulligan. In IL 2. I simply do not use the forum blasting away my frustration of getting killed , now we have those horrific mk 108 also , one shot and the wing is off. It is part of the game. We need to find a way to survive and keep motivated. All I read in this forum is 109 pilots wanting to take away the only defense we got

Being a lumbering target on public servers. Is past. I go offline. I simply tired of being a easy target in a environment where you get no help. In this light , I would keep the sniper gunners for the sake of motivation to the few who do fly public servers. IL 2  do not get them, because down low the 109 is not that easy target as high up. Almost everyone come in from behind, PE 2 is not that slower up high. So inpatient fighter pilots have many times been shot by me in the gunner possession, while they scream sniper gunner

[ShamrockOneFive]

I'm curious about how many of the Bf109 pilots that are finding themselves getting killed by turret gunners are flying F-4 or earlier models without the front armor glass. I know its a weight reduction but it's the trade-off between protecting your pilot and not.

 

I'm that weird guy flying the Bf109G-2 whenever one else wants the F-4 and that armor glass is no joke

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

I prefer the G series and always take armored glass on other models when I get the choice.

 

From what I've seen, the glass makes no difference.  109 - pilot snipe.  190 - engine damage.

 

The radial theory is interesting, but then I have to wonder why is it that my pilot doesn't get sniped if I follow a bomber or bf110 in a yak?  Last night I was comparing the frontal profiles of the 109 and 190, and the 109 pilot does seem to show a bit more over the engine.  I haven't looked, but I suspect the yak pilot rides a bit lower as well, giving him some protection.

Edited April 8, 2018 by hrafnkolbrandr

[ethelward]

5 hours ago, hrafnkolbrandr said:

but then I have to wonder why is it that my pilot doesn't get sniped if I follow a bomber or bf110 in a yak?

 

I guess that the fact that the Pe-2 has a 12.7mm BS whereas the Bf-110 and the He-111H-6/Ju-88 have 7.92mm MGs may come into play.

Edited April 8, 2018 by ethelward

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

26 minutes ago, ethelward said:

 

I guess that the fact that the Pe-2 has a 12.7mm BS whereas the Bf-110 and the He-111H-6/Ju-88 have 7.92mm MGs may come into play.

 

Ah yeah. Forgot about that.  I would still expect to take wounds still, which does happen occasionally, but perhaps that is where sitting a little lower helps.  As far as I know, the basic yak and mig doesn't have ballistic glass.  Or doesn't seem to anyways.

Edited April 8, 2018 by hrafnkolbrandr

[Eicio]

Also pilots should try to attack bombers from below, there the mg is often lighter (when there's one) and the field of view is limited.

[Yogiflight]

1 minute ago, Eicio said:

Also pilots should try to attack bombers from below, there the mg is often lighter (when there's one) and the field of view is limited

But the chance of getting your pilot killed is higher, as the bomber gunner shoots from above, because you have to aim in front of the bomber.

[Eicio]

No , you're much more vulnerable when just behind the bomber.

 

When flying bellow the gunner can't shoot right at you and have to make deflection shots rather than putting your plane right into his sights.

[ZachariasX]

10 minutes ago, Eicio said:

No , you're much more vulnerable when just behind the bomber.

 

When flying bellow the gunner can't shoot right at you and have to make deflection shots rather than putting your plane right into his sights.

 

I find it very nice of an attacking fighter to attack the Peshka from below. Usually they end up quickly in the arc of the belly gunner. So easy to shoot them then without a tailplane behind wich they can hide. At the range they can take a shot at me I can snipe them with sufficient accuracy.

 

All you can do in MP is weave up and down of the Peshkas tailplane, for the human dorsal gunner losing sights of you for a moment. Then you can reposition and take a shot while I aim at the fighter, then dive again.

 

Other than that, yes I agree, in the 109 I die even quicker than in the 109. What is also funny that in the 109 in two out of three shots (subjective statistics) in the back the canopy falls off. So I do not care so much for armour.

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

Let's be honest; most of the time flying below the pe-2 means you would need to be flying through tree trunks.  :D

Edited April 9, 2018 by hrafnkolbrandr

[BMA_Hellbender]

Edited April 9, 2018 by Hellbender

[56RAF_Roblex]

7 hours ago, ZachariasX said:

iI find it very nice of an attacking fighter to attack the Peshka from below. Usually they end up quickly in the arc of the belly gunner.

 

I find the same. If I am manning the lower gun it seems much easier to fire in front of the fighter below and walk the bullets back to his engine & cockpit than it is to hold the top gun steady on the much smaller front silhouette which is probably weaving and bobbing around.