Do any posts with constructive criticism get deleted without notice??

[seafireliv]

Problem is this thread title is very loaded... You`re not really going to get an honest answer because it makes anyone who says Ỳes`look bad. No one likes anyone who would remove  constructive criticism without notice.

 

You need to word it better to eke out the real answers.

Edited April 9, 2018 by seafireliv
Can`t spell till after I`ve written it as usual.

[sniperton]

I was tired and upset when I opened this thread, and the poor wording reflects this. By choosing 'constructive' I intended to distinguish criticism from the frequent whining. Now I think 'explicit criticism' better conforms to what I had in mind.

'Implied criticism' is better tolerated. See e.g DerScheriff's post to the dev diary (with 26 upvotes). Anyway, the 'no need for an urgent critical hotfix' was arguably an unlucky formulation. Something like 'look guys, we still need a bit more time to iron out 3.001 and to fix issues' would not have made me upset.

[Dakpilot]

If one looks at Dev comments from a game developer point of view and not as a user perspective and take into account the second language issue some misunderstandings can be avoided, as have happened in the past, they can easily come across wrong on a first reading 

 

Cheers Dakpilot 

Edited April 9, 2018 by Dakpilot

[Herne]

2 hours ago, sniperton said:

I was tired and upset when I opened this thread, and the poor wording reflects this. By choosing 'constructive' I intended to distinguish criticism from the frequent whining. Now I think 'explicit criticism' better conforms to what I had in mind.

'Implied criticism' is better tolerated. See e.g DerScheriff's post to the dev diary (with 26 upvotes). Anyway, the 'no need for an urgent critical hotfix' was arguably an unlucky formulation. Something like 'look guys, we still need a bit more time to iron out 3.001 and to fix issues' would not have made me upset.

 

I thought Han's post was ok. A "critical" hotfix probably applies to very serious game breaking bugs. Dev's made a decision that the bugs we have are not serious enough to warrant an immediate hotfix, but to work on them and push out fixes for the next build. We might find some of them a little annoying, but they are not game breaking.

OP this thread has been going a while, did you get a response from support allowing you to play the career now ?

[Cpt_Cool]

Remember the last time they had an update of this magnitude? The AMD glitter smoke (or the nvidia crash that was caused by the AMD fix)? That was a pain. Thankfully (and slightly surprising) there were no bugs on that level this time. The devs should be happy about that.

[VesseL]

They are a small team so its unnderstandable there is no hired stuff to manage the customers. But maybe it would have paid off to hire one at the beginning. Maybe it would still be a good idea. Not because they couldnt be able to do it well by themselfs, but it seems that they dont have enough time to do so. Also understandable.

Mods here are great, and lately they dont lock discussions anymore, but keep deleting the pad posts. That is, i think the right order. And btw Bearcat, we all whine time to time, not just lufties.

 

Edited April 10, 2018 by VesseL

[NO_SQDeriku777]

9 hours ago, =FEW=Herne said:

 

I thought Han's post was ok. A "critical" hotfix probably applies to very serious game breaking bugs. Dev's made a decision that the bugs we have are not serious enough to warrant an immediate hotfix, but to work on them and push out fixes for the next build. We might find some of them a little annoying, but they are not game breaking.

OP this thread has been going a while, did you get a response from support allowing you to play the career now ?

 

No, because there is no "Support" mechanism outside of just Posting a bug report in the "Technical Issues and Bug Reports" forum and waiting.  The forum description for "Technical Issues and Bug Reports" clearly states "A place to discuss technical issues and tell the development team about difficulties you encounter. Please use the customer support page to report purchase issues not related to technical issues inside the actual game"  There is no such thing as getting s Support Ticket for these sorts of issues and nothing to do beyond hoping that someone actually read the bug report and slated it to be addressed in the next patch.  There have been at least 3 separate forum posts in that forum from people with the same career crash "Error 10001" and no reply to any of those threads.

[Herne]

 

I log in to the il2 store and saw a support option from there. You can probably get straight there from the URL in the screen shot.

 

Give it a try and let us know how you get on.

 

Edit: It might be helpful if you if you can record it with something like OBS so the dev's can see what is going on.

Edited April 10, 2018 by =FEW=Herne

[6./ZG26_Custard]

15 hours ago, NO_SQDeriku777 said:

ause there is no "Support" mechanism outside of just Posting a bug report in the "Technical Issues and Bug Reports" forum and waiting.  The forum description for "Technical Issues and Bug Reports" clearly states "A place to discuss technical issues and tell the development team about difficulties you encounter. Please use the customer support page to report purchase issues not related to technical issues inside the actual game"  There is no such thing as getting s Support Ticket for these sorts of issues and nothing to do beyond hoping that someone actually read the bug report and slated it to be addressed in the next patch.  There have been at least 3 separate forum posts in that forum from people with the same career crash "Error 10001" and no reply to any of those threads.

I understand your frustration, but I can assure you that bug reporting from the forum and the testing team are highlighted to the Dev’s. As others have stated the team is a small one, who are responsible for a huge amount of work but hopefully the 40 odd bug fixes mentioned in the last DD will sort most of the gremlins.

One thing I always do when we have a major update is to do a fresh install. I know this can be a pain in the neck but from a personal viewpoint I find things tend to run somewhat smoother. I make sure I backup any Input folders and skins etc first.

If you haven’t tried this option it may be the solution to your problem?  

   

[NO_SQDeriku777]

14 hours ago, =FEW=Herne said:

 

I log in to the il2 store and saw a support option from there. You can probably get straight there from the URL in the screen shot.

 

Give it a try and let us know how you get on.

 

Edit: It might be helpful if you if you can record it with something like OBS so the dev's can see what is going on.

I realize you are trying to be helpful but did you read the post where I quote the exact forum description text for Technical Issues and bug reports, namely "A place to discuss technical issues and tell the development team about difficulties you encounter. Please use the customer support page to report purchase issues not related to technical issues inside the actual game."   That clearly states that the Support option is only for resolving license key issues, etc.  If you or anyone else has actual experience in resolving a technical issue via the Support Option I would very much like to hear about it.

Edited April 10, 2018 by NO_SQDeriku777
Typo

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

This has gone from something moderately constructive to outright complaining. I’m not even sure you want to accomplish anything other than slagging this “issue” over and over.

 

Try the support ticket route. Or PM BlackSix to see if he can point you in the right direction. PM Han and see if he will respond to you in private. Adapt, overcome, figure it out. Get creative, send a cake, send beer, think outside the box. Something other than continuing to drag it on endlessly.

 

There are lots of options. It is clear you have not found the answer you are looking for here. If no Dev has responded directly to this or the other thread by now, which seems to be your aim, then it is safe to say it’s not going to happen. The problem they had in EA is they DID respond directly to threads and they were often treated like $#!7. They were often ambushed and had people start threads looking for that GOTCHA moment. Then they pushed back and it became an awful customer service scenario for everyone. Once bitten, twice shy as they say.

Edited April 10, 2018 by II/JG17_HerrMurf

[NO_SQDeriku777]

34 minutes ago, II/JG17_HerrMurf said:

This has gone from something moderately constructive to outright complaining. I’m not even sure you want to accomplish anything other than slagging this “issue” over and over.

 

Try the support ticket route. Or PM BlackSix to see if he can point you in the right direction. PM Han and see if he will respond to you in private. Adapt, overcome, figure it out. Get creative, send a cake, send beer, think outside the box. Something other than continuing to drag it on endlessly.

 

There are lots of options. It is clear you have not found the answer you are looking for here. If no Dev has responded directly to this or the other thread by now, which seems to be your aim, then it is safe to say it’s not going to happen. The problem they had in EA is they DID respond directly to threads and they were often treated like $#!7. They were often ambushed and had people start threads looking for that GOTCHA moment. Then they pushed back and it became an awful customer service scenario for everyone. Once bitten, twice shy as they say.

As SAS_Storbror said "your House, your Rules". I will desist from making any further comments on this matter.

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

Just go create a damn ticket, for God's sake. 

[DD_Arthur]

1 hour ago, Sambot88 said:

No, the problem with EA is that they used those responses to peddle inconsistent and often misleading statements that took advantage of their customer base. In such a scenario "Gotcha" moments are the result of natural conversation and don't even have to be planned out.

 

Waa?

[DD_Arthur]

11 minutes ago, Sambot88 said:

I was thinking of the loot box controversy and how they used PR responses to get people to stop bothering them about Battlefront 2 for just long enough to try and put them back in later. It seemed like a clearcut example of the noisy players being totally in the right.

 

'Fraid I have no idea what this means, lol but no worries m8; I'm out of here too

[RedKestrel]

14 minutes ago, DD_Arthur said:

 

'Fraid I have no idea what this means, lol but no worries m8; I'm out of here too

I think he means EA - as in teh game studio Electronic Arts - and their notoriously bad treatment of player base...whereas you appear to mean EA as in Early Access before Il-2 BOS was fully released.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Early Access (EA) to BoS

[DD_Arthur]

And the loot box................?

[=EXPEND=Tripwire]

On 08/04/2018 at 3:18 PM, SAS_Storebror said:

Let me add my personal recent experience with this matter.

I've been the first to reply in the Developer Diary 191 thread, and my reply consisted of a quote two lines added my myself.

 

The quote part was this:

 

1st line of mine stated that I thought that this point of view was a tad too optimistic.

2nd line of mine stated that nevertheless, the Dev Diary was a nice one.

 

My post got immediately sanitized. Fine with me. Your house, your rules. But if you can't stand comments like this, then you obviously aren't open for unbiased feedback. Which is fine again, as long as you don't pretend you were.

 

Cheers!

Mike

 

Yeah I saw your post at the top and was surprised/dissapointed that it was removed. 

[Gambit21]

On 4/9/2018 at 12:57 AM, SAS_Storebror said:

 

Not quite.

In my particular case I doubt that a moderator would deny the fact that my post got deleted nor the content of it.

There's no point in entering an argument about it anyway and as I said before, I'm fine with that moderator's action.

In relation to this thread, my case is slightly out of context as the opening post asks for situations where constructive criticism gets deleted and my particular post was neither constructive in the narrow sense of the word, nor was it criticism. It was just an expression of doubts.

 

In the greater scheme of things, such kind of moderation however shows a certain intolerance against posts that express opinions which don't exactly follow the mainstream, the desired type of feedback or god-knows-what is expected to happen right then.

That's something you can do or let be from a moderator's perspective and I'm fine with it either way.

Frankly I rather like to read a forum where moderators are a tad too picky than those where personal insults are the order of the day.

If I were in charge of forum operations here, I'd change a few things for sure, but I'm not so I'll just take it as it is.

 

This of course doesn't mean that I don't take the liberty from time to time to say that things could be improved if I think they can, as it's the case here.

The particular risk of over-reacting as a moderator is that you might end up leaving your "customers" - which are the normal users - with a feeling that their concerns are not welcome anymore. In a genre like ours, where the complexity of games is such that without talking to others you're unlikely to master the game and have fun in the long term with it, this would effectively drive away customers, and that's probably the least thing anyone wants to happen. 

Not that I'd like to say that this happens intentionally.

Moderators are human beings like all of us, and as such they're prone to mistakes, which again is no bad thing as long as you manage to learn from the mistakes you've made (in a perfect world, you'd even learn from other's mistakes) and try to avoid repeating them.

In that regard: All is fine and dandy, still.

 

Cheers!

Mike

 

Your post was basically a scoff. "Pffff!" Disguised as a friendly opinion, and  in a Dev diary no less.

[SAS_Storebror]

You show a great talent in reading the opposite of what has been written Gambit.

If someone would have asked you to write how little you know me in one line, you could hardly have done any better.

 

Cheers!

Mike

[johncage]

no, this isn't the dcs forums

[Gambit21]

1 hour ago, SAS_Storebror said:

You show a great talent in reading the opposite of what has been written Gambit.

If someone would have asked you to write how little you know me in one line, you could hardly have done any better.

 

Cheers!

Mike

 

uh huh

 

 

Well that's the trouble with typing things...you have take the lost in translation factor into account.

That's your responsibility.

Also read the room and maybe not type - then you don't have to make long posts about your deleted posts. 

[SAS_Storebror]

You seem to be out for a fight that was over even before it started.

I have no idea what's driving you there Gambit, but whatever it is, be my guest. I won't take your bait. Choose another victim.

 

Cheers!

Mike

[Royal_Flight]

6 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

 

Your post was basically a scoff. "Pffff!" Disguised as a friendly opinion, and  in a Dev diary no less.

 

I wouldn't have said so. In a genre like this where a game basically lives and dies on its community, giving feedback to the devs is important, as long as it doesn't cross a line into abuse or pointless negativity.

 

If something isn't right it matters for the devs to know so they can decide how to respond.

 

If people get discouraged from speaking their minds then there's no actual criticism, good or bad. Which means eventually every comment becomes fawning praise and compliments which are completely valueless as feedback as there's no way to tell if it's sincere. 

 

This forum strikes a fairly good balance most of the time, but not always. 

There are other ones I can think of that are much less keen on dissent and posting on them tends to be a complete waste of time. 

Incidentally, communities which crack down on critical feedback seem to belong to games that are known for their serious issues. 

Whether the two things are related is a discussion for another day. 

[Livai]

On 10.4.2018 at 10:43 AM, =FEW=Herne said:

 

I log in to the il2 store and saw a support option from there. You can probably get straight there from the URL in the screen shot.

 

 

 

Helpful for who? - Do you receive a confirmation mail that they received your report about whatever? - Is this the same way how you cancel/terminate your contracts. And how you can prove here that they even received your report about whatever? - You can't. 

 

 

[Herne]

6 minutes ago, Livai said:

 

 

Helpful for who? - Do you receive a confirmation mail that they received your report about whatever? - Is this the same way how you cancel/terminate your contracts. And how you can prove here that they even received your report about whatever? - You can't. 

 

 

 

Someone was having problems with not being able to play the career mode at all. He had no response from the forum so I suggested this as an alternative so that the support team might have visibility of his problem. 

 

I've never had to used it, but I would be very surprised if it does not give you some kind of auto confirmation of your problem, and raise a support ticket for you.

[J2_Trupobaw]

On 4/7/2018 at 1:39 AM, NO_SQDeriku777 said:

How is locking a thread that I started because someone ( not me I assume ) made a comment over the line fair to to the rest of us that are continuing to discuss the topic in a reasonable manner.  This is is collective punishment and it happens all the time here.  There has to be a.better way to moderate.

 

We are grown up men (and women?) here, and moderators are not our babysitters. The "better way to moderate" is calling to shift full workload and responsibility for keeping the discussion civilised on moderators - who are unpaid community volunteers and are not here to keep us mature so we don't have to. 

Sometimes, a moderator looks at a thread and says "This can't be allowed to continue. The discussion is so heated that people will be coming back to flaming unless I ban everyone involved, keep moderating posts manually 24/7, or end it by closing the thread." Last option is, in fact, the least drastic one.

 

 

On 4/7/2018 at 12:51 AM, II/JG17_HerrMurf said:

No, constructive criticism is welcome here. Unsubstantiated and/or rude filings get moderated appropriately. Head and I had an argument and the thread got locked. It was appropriate and I'll take my lickin' for being mouthy. There is no free speech here. You can't just say stuff and expect people to not stand up and challenge it. It is a problem with the internet at large and it is not tolerated here - often by other members and occasionally by the mods. Be factual and be polite, it's pretty simple.

 

Funny thing is - on the above argument; Head and I were about to come to an understanding and something of an agreement. It's how most good arguments end.

 

Edit: Headwarp not Tripwire

Very short and comprehesive, it could be a moderator manifesto. 

On 4/7/2018 at 1:49 AM, NO_SQDeriku777 said:

So that's it then.  Any wahoo can jump into any forum, make incendiary statements, and shut down ANY discussion here.  Great.

So don't feed the troll. Let him be the one who's spitting into the wind. As long as there are people who always need to have a last word, any wackoo can jump into discussion, make seemingly innocent incendiary statement, set these guys against each other, back off and watch the world burn. He does not even have to participate after that, just watch thread go aflames, get locked and people get banned. And try to make a case when he gets banned, too, because technically he wasn't the one who broke the rules. 

I repeat, no moderator will make people act mature so you don't have to. If any of us reply troll or gets into argument, he contributes to mayhem. If he makes hostile comments calling to return to topic, he contributes to mayhem. If he makes "witty and innocent" comment about a troll that is suuuuure to make him see how stupid his point was and leave the thread... one guess what he's accomplishing. The mod will get rid of the mayhem, but can't fix peoples attitudes. Mod can teach people to avoid these situation by banning them, bend the rules and ban the "innocent" initiator alongside participants, or teach people to avoid these situations by locking threads. 

 

Our forum is not run on Banhammer, and it's a healthy sign.

Our discussions are ours to protect. If we won't be protecting them from derailment and expect mod to take care of everything instead, he'll teach us to cherish and protect it by locking it.

Also, you don't want a say on how the forum is moderated. The toxic people who love (or can't help) setting discussions aflame are much, much better at manipulating people than you, so a mod who lets users influence his policy opens himself to manipulation by the very people he should be stopping. Unless he's playing friends and taking input from you only, because how bad can that end ?
 

Edited April 13, 2018 by LsV_Trupobaw

[Gambit21]

7 hours ago, Royal_Flight said:

 

I wouldn't have said so. In a genre like this where a game basically lives and dies on its community, giving feedback to the devs is important, as long as it doesn't cross a line into abuse or pointless negativity.

 

If something isn't right it matters for the devs to know so they can decide how to respond.

 

If people get discouraged from speaking their minds then there's no actual criticism, good or bad. Which means eventually every comment becomes fawning praise and compliments which are completely valueless as feedback as there's no way to tell if it's sincere. 

 

This forum strikes a fairly good balance most of the time, but not always. 

There are other ones I can think of that are much less keen on dissent and posting on them tends to be a complete waste of time. 

Incidentally, communities which crack down on critical feedback seem to belong to games that are known for their serious issues. 

Whether the two things are related is a discussion for another day. 

 

I agree with everything you say.

My point up there to Mike was that maybe there's a better time and place than the dev diary.

 

When the devs put in the blood, sweat and tears that they do, the endless hours and 7 day work weeks toward the end of the cycle "crunch time" then finally get it out the door and post a dev diary...maybe that's not the best place for basically a "I don't think so" contradiction. I'm pretty sure I would have deleted such a post myself. Just the human factor, and it's easy as a user to forget the Devs own emotional investment into this thing.

Any way I don't think Mike was intending a "scoff" as I characterized it, but that's how it might read. 

 

 

We we see a lot of feedback here, I don't see locks or deleted posts due to respectful constructive feedback unless like Bearcat said it's something that's been beaten to death. 

[sniperton]

6 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

My point up there to Mike was that maybe there's a better time and place than the dev diary.

Gambit, my friend, think it over, what is better: open communication or alleluia at any cost?

[Gambit21]

I'd respectfully submit that it's not a zero sum game.

[sniperton]