Do any posts with constructive criticism get deleted without notice??

[sniperton]

I bought Il-2 because I like it. Living in Eastern-Europe, the money I spent on it is proportionally more than most people in the 1st world would ever spend on it.

I like Il-2. I want it to be better. I'm eager to spend my time (as I don't have the money) to help it to become better. Voluntarily. To do so,  I must point out its weaknesses. I think I have the right to do so as a customer, and I suppose it's important for the devs to learn what their customers think.

Thing is, 3.001 broke several things. Nothing fatal, just annoying. Many people have problems, this or that kind, with running the game. It's not a matter of opinion, it's a fact. Look around at this forum. Problem A might not affect you, and problem B might not affect you, but there are problems, for sure. Crucial? I can't tell. Still any posts touching on those problems get deleted, threads get closed. Please feel free to discuss it, but don't expect me to respond. It was just a question by one of your fellow-customer living in a country where opinions can be suppressed.

[seafireliv]

Hmmm. I don`t know. Some threads do get moved, but I`m not aware of Constructive Criticism of the game being removed... But I`ve only recently returned so not sure. Some forums can be VERY touchy about criticism of its games which is never a good thing.

[69th_Panp]

yes happened to me 

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

No, constructive criticism is welcome here. Unsubstantiated and/or rude filings get moderated appropriately. Head and I had an argument and the thread got locked. It was appropriate and I'll take my lickin' for being mouthy. There is no free speech here. You can't just say stuff and expect people to not stand up and challenge it. It is a problem with the internet at large and it is not tolerated here - often by other members and occasionally by the mods. Be factual and be polite, it's pretty simple.

 

Funny thing is - on the above argument; Head and I were about to come to an understanding and something of an agreement. It's how most good arguments end.

 

Edit: Headwarp not Tripwire

Edited April 6, 2018 by II/JG17_HerrMurf
clarity

[ShamrockOneFive]

I've had no issues pointing out issues and bringing them up. How you do that is just as important as the issue itself. I'm generally upbeat about the whole product but when there are issues I call them out and when other folks have issues I've tried to help them solve them. When its something with IL-2 itself then we point it out. The whole last 12-16 months have clearly illustrated that issues we bring up in the forums have a direct impact on what the team does. It's way better than the experience I've had with other developers. Patience is, of course, a virtue on these things.

[SCG_Neun]

I've been around since the start of all this and I was plenty vocal in the early phases  and at times, now that I reflect back on it, head strong and very opinionated.  Personally, I've learned to be patient as this sim is well supported and has evolved into one of my favorites.  Don't be too "victim" oriented and express your concerns in a respectful manner and you should be just fine in here.  If you need to make a point, PM the moderator and limit the drama.  Fact is the internet is not very conducive to a focused back and forth exchange of ideas.  People will always come into the conversation bringing all their baggage with them.  And before you know it...the entire theme of the post is off the rails.  

Edited April 6, 2018 by SCG_Neun

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Also, try avoiding the words ALWAYS, NEVER, BIAS and of course using ALL CAPS.

[ShamrockOneFive]

3 minutes ago, II/JG17_HerrMurf said:

Also, try avoiding the words ALWAYS, NEVER, BIAS and of course using ALL CAPS.

 

Also good for arguing with your spouse/family/friends. Always and never are bad rhetorical statements if you want a positive reaction.

 

Conflict management skills folks, very important!

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

I do resort to ALL CAPS with the wife, though, is that wrong?

 

[NO_SQDeriku777]

How is locking a thread that I started because someone ( not me I assume ) made a comment over the line fair to to the rest of us that are continuing to discuss the topic in a reasonable manner.  This is is collective punishment and it happens all the time here.  There has to be a.better way to moderate.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Or it can be Indian country out there like so many other forums past and present. I'll take this every day of the week.

 

They aren't always closed. More often they are cleaned up and warnings are issued. Even the one we got locked has a chance to be re-opened. They are regularly closed temporarily to let cooler heads prevail as well.

 

Threads are rarely closed for any single comment. I'd say never but some smart@$$ said never to do that...........dammit.

Edited April 6, 2018 by II/JG17_HerrMurf

[NO_SQDeriku777]

So that's it then.  Any wahoo can jump into any forum, make incendiary statements, and shut down ANY discussion here.  Great.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Quite the opposite really. It takes some effort to accomplish it for the most part. Especially since early access so very long ago. The mods here are really good compared overall. Just follow the IL2 Forum golden rule - Be factual and polite.

 

As above, most threads are cleaned up and/or moved as opposed to closed permanently.

[seafireliv]

6 minutes ago, NO_SQDeriku777 said:

So that's it then.  Any wahoo can jump into any forum, make incendiary statements, and shut down ANY discussion here.  Great.

I will admit that that is a strategy I`ve seen some use. you try to make a polite valid point and someone will immediately turn it into a flame war so it will be shut down.

 

Annoying.

Edited April 6, 2018 by seafireliv

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Trolls gonna troll. Welcome to the internet.

 

Our user experiences in this forum, however, seem to differ significantly. I often have spirited exchanges with varying outcomes - almost none which have been a closure. The last thread is the first one I've (inadvertently) contributed to closing in at least a couple of years. Like I said, it was about to resolve amicably. On the other hand, I've locked onto a couple of trolls in my time and eaten them alive with no ill effect from community or mods. I suppose it comes down to; has the mod had his coffee yet before responding to our input. They are human after all.

Edited April 7, 2018 by II/JG17_HerrMurf

[Leaf]

I think the moderation here is pretty reasonable, compared to other forums. It's not excessively restrictive, nor does it allow for offensive or generally unpleasant behaviour.

 

Just don't mention women and most people here will get along just fine, by internet standards.

Edited April 7, 2018 by Leaf

[Bearcat]

No they do not .. unless it is an issue that has been beaten to DEATH ... like clickable cockpiots .. or 190/109 whine and cheese fests with no supporting information..  for two examples.. or it may get moved/locked if it insinuates some kind of bias on the part of the developers..  

[NO_SQDeriku777]

21 minutes ago, Bearcat said:

No they do not .. unless it is an issue that has been beaten to DEATH ... like clickable cockpiots .. or 190/109 whine and cheese fests with no supporting information..  for two examples.. or it may get moved/locked if it insinuates some kind of bias on the part of the developers..  

My forum thread was locked not because of the ISSUE I raised In the forum ( at least I REALLY hope not ) but because a single poster in the thread was deemed by the Mod to cross the line.  The thread is still locked and frankly it would be nice to continue the discussion in a reasonable fashion about how the Devs could maybe do a bit better in communicating about how bug reports are acknowledged and handled.  I now spend more time in the forums than playing the game because Career is broken for me because I get error code 10001 ( whatever the heck that means) each and every time I try and launch Career.  Is it unreasonable for me to expect a response from developers about getting a description of what that error code means from the programmers that implemented it in the Bug Reports forum?

 

Edited April 7, 2018 by NO_SQDeriku777

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

It might be. That sounds more like a support ticket than expecting a dev comment in a forum thread.

[NO_SQDeriku777]

35 minutes ago, II/JG17_HerrMurf said:

It might be. That sounds more like a support ticket than expecting a dev comment in a forum thread.

I have to call this out.  The forums description for the Technical Issues and Bug Reports Forum is "A place to discuss technical issues and tell the development team about difficulties you encounter. Please use the customer support page to report purchase issues not related to technical issues inside the actual game"  Support tickets are not used for these issues at all.  Is that description incorrect?

Edited April 7, 2018 by NO_SQDeriku777

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Call this out? I did say ‘maybe.’ Equal chance I was incorrect. So, let’s go with that.

[NO_SQDeriku777]

36 minutes ago, II/JG17_HerrMurf said:

Call this out? I did say ‘maybe.’ Equal chance I was incorrect. So, let’s go with that.

Would it, be possible then to unlock the thread because it would be really nice to get some more discussion on the role of that Forum in the actual bug reporting process.  Because it seems to me that not even the forum admins have a clear understanding of the role that that forum plays ( or doesn't play ) in bug reporting.   You are Mods and are doing your job as Mods and I don't begrudge that but really the lack of feedback from 1C or the Devs in that Technical Issues and Bug Reporting forum subsequent to all the bug reports for 3.01 is disappointing.  As much as I enjoy the Dev diaries and hearing about new features I would really appreciate knowing more about the bugs that will be addressed soon.  A simple statement in that forum with a bullet list of high priority bugs to be addressed soon would have been nice to see considering the large number of posts in that forum that have gone unacknowledged.. Some forum posts mention that my particular issue MIGHT be fixed be a complete reinstall.  That is a major pain and if I KNEW it was being addressed I would just wait for the fix.  If I don't then I have to waste a lot of time doing something that might not even resolve the error I am getting.

Edited April 7, 2018 by NO_SQDeriku777

[Finkeren]

6 hours ago, NO_SQDeriku777 said:

So that's it then.  Any wahoo can jump into any forum, make incendiary statements, and shut down ANY discussion here.  Great.

 

No. As long as the rest of the participants in the discussion don’t resond in kind and add fuel to the fire, a single inflamatory comment will never get a threat locked. It will just land the instigator a 3-day ban and possibly get the comment itself deleted. The thread only gets locked, if the discussion goes of the rails in multiple posts with multiple participants.

 

Lesson 1: Don’t feed the troll.

[Herne]

No_sqderiko777 Sorry to read about your career troubles. Log a support ticket. In the mean time have you tried blacksix's scripted campaign that came with Bok?

[Lensman]

Raise proven defects in the bug forum for the developers to action.

If you're not sure if an issue is a defect then discuss it in measured terms and then post it in the bug forum if required.

If you want a developmental change then you're into speculation and that can get messy but can be discussed, carefully.

[Finkeren]

I think the long list of 20+ page threads in the FM forum section is testament to the fact, that constructive criticism and discussion of pretty much any issue regarding the sim, is not only allowed but welcomed by the devs. 

 

Just be civil about it, refrain from making broad, sweeping statements and if at all possible back up your claims with sources.

[Lusekofte]

Sniperton and me know of people reporting common known bugs. Some cannot use this sim after latest patch. My bugs I can live with. [?] in numbers in QMB do not work, that means no one,

set [?] in own flight and you do not have them. ME or and D server suffer from numerous bugs, making this having servers do make do solutions. And then we  read everything is fine with latest patch. It is pretty frustrating that most people do not report bugs, they rather choose to complain in impropriate topics, so the few who do report this, make the devs , think it is minor and just a few. 

Edited April 7, 2018 by 216th_LuseKofte

[NO_SQDeriku777]

5 hours ago, Finkeren said:

 

No. As long as the rest of the participants in the discussion don’t resond in kind and add fuel to the fire, a single inflamatory comment will never get a threat locked. It will just land the instigator a 3-day ban and possibly get the comment itself deleted. The thread only gets locked, if the discussion goes of the rails in multiple posts with multiple participants.

 

Lesson 1: Don’t feed the troll.

That did not happen in my thread.  Please read the thread here:  and tell me if you think that is what happend As far asI can tell the comments of ONE person got the entire thread locked.

 

Edited April 7, 2018 by NO_SQDeriku777

[Finkeren]

You got off on the wrong foot from the start by calling the forum an echo chamber in the title. Remember what I said about broad, sweeping statements?

 

Sorry to say, and I know it wasn’t your intention, but from the onset that thread was inviting trouble.

[dburne]

Just now, Finkeren said:

You got off on the wrong foot from the start by calling the forum an echo chamber in the title. Remember what I said about broad, sweeping statements?

 

Sorry to say, and I know it wasn’t your intention, but from the onset that thread was inviting trouble.

 

Agreed, undoubtedly that was a contributing factor.

[NO_SQDeriku777]

1 minute ago, dburne said:

 

Agreed, undoubtedly that was a contributing factor.

Well I'm sorry for that but it was born of frustration from the fact that only Mods and not Devs seem to interact with people on that forum.  The fact that people tell me to open support tickets to get bugs addressed when the forum description clearly states that support tickets are not to be used for in game technical issue means that there does not appear to be ANY way to get acknowledgement of reported issues.

[dburne]

2 minutes ago, NO_SQDeriku777 said:

Well I'm sorry for that but it was born of frustration from the fact that only Mods and not Devs seem to interact with people on that forum.  The fact that people tell me to open support tickets to get bugs addressed when the forum description clearly states that support tickets are not to be used for in game technical issue means that there does not appear to be ANY way to get acknowledgement of reported issues.

 

I imagine with them being such a small team and all they have on their plate, they are taking note of the bugs where appropriate but not having the time to respond to each post in that forum. 

Bug fixes are mentioned in the upcoming hotfix patch soon, will be interesting to see the changelog and what has been done.

[Wolfram-Harms]

14 hours ago, sniperton said:

..any posts touching on those problems get deleted, threads get closed.

 

Not sure if that is really so.

But I know that it is a very touchy thing for the makers of any game or sim, when people easily write "bug" or "does not work".

It is sensible, because it might drive off others with an interest, when they read it before buying.

 

So it is logical, that for us forum posters any criticism is much easier to write, than it is for the devs to bear seeing it as a bold headline.

That's why I'd suggest to write such stuff in the technical department, or to the devs per PM,

or at least choose a less explosive headline. Kinda "self-censorship" (although I hate censorship mostly).

Instead of "bug" or "bugged" one could for example just ask the question "Does anyone else see this or that?"

 

Of course, everyone can and should write as they want to - this was just meant to point out, how it looks from devs' end.
(After all they must feed their families from the income they make with this product)

[NO_SQDeriku777]

33 minutes ago, dburne said:

 

I imagine with them being such a small team and all they have on their plate, they are taking note of the bugs where appropriate but not having the time to respond to each post in that forum. 

Bug fixes are mentioned in the upcoming hotfix patch soon, will be interesting to see the changelog and what has been done.

I no  have no expectation of them responding to each and every post.  It just appears to be that there is no response to ANY posts.  I realize that there may  language issues here and that it is very likely that it is probably easier for them to use the Russian Bug tracking forums to collect their bug information.  Its just that it would be nice to know what bugs are being worked on before they are fixed.  In my case I would like to know if there is a chance my career issue will be fixed  before I waste a lot of time rolling the dice and doing a complete re-install.

22 minutes ago, Wolfram-Harms said:

 

Not sure if that is really so.

But I know that it is a very touchy thing for the makers of any game or sim, when people easily write "bug" or "does not work".

It is sensible, because it might drive off others with an interest, when they read it before buying.

 

So it is logical, that for us forum posters any criticism is much easier to write, than it is for the devs to bear seeing it as a bold headline.

That's why I'd suggest to write such stuff in the technical department, or to the devs per PM,

or at least choose a less explosive headline. Kinda "self-censorship" (although I hate censorship mostly).

Instead of "bug" or "bugged" one could for example just ask the question "Does anyone else see this or that?"

 

Of course, everyone can and should write as they want to - this was just meant to point out, how it looks from devs' end.
(After all they must feed their families from the income they make with this product)

If the Bug Reporting forum is not the "technical department" then I don't know what is and I doubt very much doubt the Devs would welcome or acknowledge bug reports via PM.

[dburne]

19 minutes ago, NO_SQDeriku777 said:

I no  have no expectation of them responding to each and every post.  It just appears to be that there is no response to ANY posts.  

 

Occasionally they do.

 

[NO_SQDeriku777]

54 minutes ago, dburne said:

 

Occasionally they do.

 

That is a flight model correction not a game bug related to game programming.   The Devs are very on top of planes and flight model issues.  No quibbles there.

[Royal_Flight]

I have seen discussions getting abruptly  shut down and threads getting locked with no warning and no explanation beyond 'pointless discussion', 'stupid thread' or similar. 

Hasn't happened recently that I've noticed but it was something that happened enough to be noteworthy before. 

 

Generally the level and tone of official communication is good, although a lot of the time it's the testers who seem to shoulder a lot of the burden.

But the occasional decision to rudely write threads off as 'pointless' and lock them isn't particularly good community management. 

 

I've also had a dev request for information via PM for skins completely ignored twice, with the promised skin left out with no explanation. 

I understand the team works hard and has been particularly busy in the lead-up to 3.001, and as I said before, generally the standard of communication is good and far exceeds certain other teams I could name. 

But there have been times when the standard has fallen below what could be expected. 

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

The only threads which get abruptly shut down are the ones containing either personal attacks on devs or gross violations of the stated forum rules - usually some reduculous claim of bias. I don’t have any problems with that whatsoever. Healthy argument is moderated. Gross violations are cesnsored appropriately. It’s a healthy commercial and controlled/moderated forum, nothing more. There should be no expectation otherwise.

[SAS_Storebror]

Let me add my personal recent experience with this matter.

I've been the first to reply in the Developer Diary 191 thread, and my reply consisted of a quote two lines added my myself.

 

The quote part was this:

Quote

Thankfully, 3.001 release went ok and didn't require any urgent critical hotfixes, which is strange for such fundamental changes, to be honest.

 

1st line of mine stated that I thought that this point of view was a tad too optimistic.

2nd line of mine stated that nevertheless, the Dev Diary was a nice one.

 

My post got immediately sanitized. Fine with me. Your house, your rules. But if you can't stand comments like this, then you obviously aren't open for unbiased feedback. Which is fine again, as long as you don't pretend you were.

 

Cheers!

Mike

[SAS_Storebror]

21 hours ago, Sambot88 said:

 

Ah, the old he-said/she-said game of perspective.

 

Not quite.

In my particular case I doubt that a moderator would deny the fact that my post got deleted nor the content of it.

There's no point in entering an argument about it anyway and as I said before, I'm fine with that moderator's action.

In relation to this thread, my case is slightly out of context as the opening post asks for situations where constructive criticism gets deleted and my particular post was neither constructive in the narrow sense of the word, nor was it criticism. It was just an expression of doubts.

 

In the greater scheme of things, such kind of moderation however shows a certain intolerance against posts that express opinions which don't exactly follow the mainstream, the desired type of feedback or god-knows-what is expected to happen right then.

That's something you can do or let be from a moderator's perspective and I'm fine with it either way.

Frankly I rather like to read a forum where moderators are a tad too picky than those where personal insults are the order of the day.

If I were in charge of forum operations here, I'd change a few things for sure, but I'm not so I'll just take it as it is.

 

This of course doesn't mean that I don't take the liberty from time to time to say that things could be improved if I think they can, as it's the case here.

The particular risk of over-reacting as a moderator is that you might end up leaving your "customers" - which are the normal users - with a feeling that their concerns are not welcome anymore. In a genre like ours, where the complexity of games is such that without talking to others you're unlikely to master the game and have fun in the long term with it, this would effectively drive away customers, and that's probably the least thing anyone wants to happen. 

Not that I'd like to say that this happens intentionally.

Moderators are human beings like all of us, and as such they're prone to mistakes, which again is no bad thing as long as you manage to learn from the mistakes you've made (in a perfect world, you'd even learn from other's mistakes) and try to avoid repeating them.

In that regard: All is fine and dandy, still.

 

Cheers!

Mike