Very Friendly Fire

[Wolf8312]

Just got awarded an iron cross but to be honest as I also got told I had killed one of my own comrades I dont really feel I deserve the award!

 

Loving the campagin but does anyone else agree that there are too few consequences for actions that would in reality have brought a court marshall and certainly not an iron cross?

 

But not just friendly fire, crashing your own plane at the airport, and a whole load of other rule breaking or seriously negligent behaviours would in reality have been seriously punished.

 

Landing and just quitting when your airport was overrun with the enemy would I suspect have resulted, not an onto the next mission no harm done type of deal, but a bullet in the head! Either from your own comrades for desertion, or from the enemy and the bombing raid, that you just let them get on with, itself! 

 

I often feel like the bosses spoilt but despised son and that almost anything I do -such as rudely landing when other people are landing- has no consequences whatseover because I just do what I like!

 

I kinda think fixing these things would add to the immersion of the campaign, but I guess its a balance as if say you were forced to queue up and land in sequence I'm guessing eventually I would say to hell with realism!

 

 

Edited April 6, 2018 by Wolf8312

[InProgress]

Friendly fire happens, no one would put you to jail for this.

 

Crashing plane was also nothing special.. so no jail for you either

 

[Wolf8312]

I dont know it was really the book Lufwaffe Ace which led me to believe there would be serious punishments for crashing on take off due to pilot error. He actually avoided them but only just I think

Will have to read more about this online. Hard to believe friendly fire would be without any consequences but maybe you're right!

[InProgress]

It depends on country, for example in Soviet union it would be really problematic. Destroying plane could get you a holidays in penalty battalion. But crashe were not rare thing and a lot of it happened. So far I read only books about allied pilots and there were lots of accidents but never anyone was punished for this. 

 

Friendly fire happend thousands of times everywhere, land, air and sea. During bodenplatte germans lost 80+ planes because their own artillery. Doubt they executed these aaa gunners

[Wolf8312]

7 hours ago, InProgress said:

It depends on country, for example in Soviet union it would be really problematic. Destroying plane could get you a holidays in penalty battalion. But crashe were not rare thing and a lot of it happened. So far I read only books about allied pilots and there were lots of accidents but never anyone was punished for this. 

 

Friendly fire happend thousands of times everywhere, land, air and sea. During bodenplatte germans lost 80+ planes because their own artillery. Doubt they executed these aaa gunners

Yes perhaps as seemed to be the case in Lufwaffe ace, they were made to realize that punishments would occur, but in reality for reasons of expediancy they couldnt very well be grounding a sizable chunk of their badly needed trained personnel. I'm sure if they could prove you were negligent you would be in serious trouble though.

 I’m not really suggesting court martial for crashing a plane but I think it would be cool if there was some sort of punishment, like a warning system. A you break one more plane and you’re out kind of thing. Cause I think if your army noticed a pattern (that you broke more planes than you successfully landed) they would certainly do something about it. As of now it doesent really matter if you land perfectly or drop down on your belly in a totaled plane. 

Edited April 7, 2018 by Wolf8312

[seafireliv]

I really don`t see what a crashlanding aircraft on a Carrier has to do with friendly fire.

Anyway...

They would likely overlook a single  friendly fire incident if it appeared truly accidental and was difficult to pin down the exact circumstances . But NO airforce of any country would overlook subsequent friendly fires from the same person especially if pilots were killed. None. You most certainly wouldn`t get an Iron cross (or any medal) if there were doubts that maybe you killed a friendly- At best they`d hold it back for a few months.

 

Commit more than one in short order andyour own squad m8s would not want to fly with you and if forced would likely shoot you down in their own `accidental friendly fire`.

 

To sum up: if you commit more than one friendly fire and if you become a danger to life (killing men), you should definitely be penalised somehow in game. either by being grounded for a while as an investigation is carried out (what use are you if you`re shooting friendlies anyway?) and at worst have your wingman shoot you down if you`re taking pilot`s lives.

Edited April 6, 2018 by seafireliv

[Aap]

50 minutes ago, Wolf8312 said:

Yes perhaps as seemed to be the case in Lufwaffe ace, they were made to realize that punishments would occur, but in reality for reasons of expediancy they couldnt very well be sending a sizable chunk of their badly needed trained personnel. I'm sure if they could prove you were negligent you would be in serious trouble though.

 

I remember from Werner Mölders biography that he crashed an early Bf109 while giving plane introduction/familiarization to his unit, because he forgot to extract landing gear. He was not punished for it but became a target of friendly jokes from his squad for awhile. Or Johannes Steinhoff telling how they always watched kind of worriedly how pilots managed to land after returning from missions - not because of fear of damaging a plane or getting a punishment, but for fear of having a pilot injured or killed. So punishments for accidents were definitely not a common thing in Luftwaffe.

Of course there could always be idiots in every armed forces that came up with punishments for all kinds of absurd things. For example the head of entire Luftwaffe, Hermann Göring.

[Eicio]

3 hours ago, Wolf8312 said:

Just got awarded an iron cross but to be honest as I also got told I had killed one of my own comrades I dont really feel I deserve the award!

 

Well... that still does count as a kill doesn't it ?

[Wolf8312]

6 hours ago, seafireliv said:

I really don`t see what a crashlanding aircraft on a Carrier has to do with friendly fire.

Anyway...

 

 

Me too but not sure I, or anybody was talking about crash landing on carriers bud! I assume you just mean crash landing?

 

I agree completely with your other ideas though but think that both FF and a pattern of destroying expensive equipment should lead to eventual punishments. I've noticed recently that I am bringing planes in lazily without taking the time to be extra careful (reaproach when you sense your coming in too fast) like I used to and just coming down ASAP and sometimes smashing them up. It's not something I am conciously meaning to do but I do think if there was some sort of penalty for crash landings it might make people, put more of an effort in getting things right. I just think it would be pretty cool to have a bit more healthy fear of making mistakes.

[InProgress]

I was talking about landings, he asked about more stuff than friendly fire. Landing on carrier is still a landing.

 

You are punished by losing equipment. You do realize that you don't have unlimited planes? Sometimes you get new ones but if you will be losing more than getting and killing friendly ones you will run out of them.

[Wolf8312]

55 minutes ago, InProgress said:

I was talking about landings, he asked about more stuff than friendly fire. Landing on carrier is still a landing.

 

You are punished by losing equipment. You do realize that you don't have unlimited planes? Sometimes you get new ones but if you will be losing more than getting and killing friendly ones you will run out of them.

 

Oh really? Well no I didnt realize that! So if I damage too many will it simply be game over? I play on iron man so I havent really got far enough into the campaign to have actually seen what happens!

[InProgress]

I don't think so, never happend to me but you will probably spend few days waiting for new planes and new missions will be harder because you will have to fly with 3 wingmen instead of 5 for example.

[seafireliv]

4 hours ago, Wolf8312 said:

 

Oh really? Well no I didnt realize that! So if I damage too many will it simply be game over? I play on iron man so I havent really got far enough into the campaign to have actually seen what happens!

 

I`ve noticed the aircraft you use do change if your squad keeps losing them, so maybe you can run out. However, you should still be personally punished more than that if you want to be realistic.

 

If I do something wrong like a Friendly fire kill or even wreck my healthly aircraft 3 times in a row I keep expecting some kind of penalty, even a suspension of a reward (like the bounty for kills), but it doesn`t happen.

Edited April 7, 2018 by seafireliv

[Eicio]

A soldier at war risks his every single time. Do you really think that you should get punished when accomplishing your duty ?

 

It's better to crash a plane than to die in it. At the end of the war, for the germany, there was a lack of pilots, not planes.

 

And there was many friendly fire, many more than people think and nobody did this on purpose, as a pilot if you do this you loose a comrade, that's enough punishment.

[Wolf8312]

5 hours ago, Eicio said:

A soldier at war risks his every single time. Do you really think that you should get punished when accomplishing your duty ?

 

It's better to crash a plane than to die in it. At the end of the war, for the germany, there was a lack of pilots, not planes.

 

And there was many friendly fire, many more than people think and nobody did this on purpose, as a pilot if you do this you loose a comrade, that's enough punishment.

 

Then perhaps we should be forced to attend whoever we've killed's memorial service, and receive angry letters from his family members from time to time! A little symbol that says 'friendly fire' just doesent really convey the gravity of the situation!

 

Dont forget as well this is not a simple case of killing someone accidentally in pell mell, hand to hand combat, on the front line. I blasted a member of my own squad out of the sky! A man of whom I was probably in radio communication with (and couldnt understand his German) and may well even have been my own wingman for all I know! I think with that ridiculous level of steaming incompetance, war time or not, I would have had, at the very least some serious explaining to do!

 

But again I'm not saying one friendly kill needs to have any consequences, but a recurring pattern of friendly kills would almost certainly have led to a pilots dismissal. There was a war on, and they did indeed need pilots but having a dangerous incompetant who kills members of your own squad on a weekly basis, would not have been tolerated for long, as you would end up losing more of your own men with him, than you would without!  

 

But I think it goes to the heart of a larger issue, I know we receive medals for mission sucess, but as we are still playing a computer game, at the end of the day I think a leader board, and a scoring system would be a good idea. FF, and crash landings could lead to point deductions that would serve to represent the real world consequences that such mistakes would in reality have had back then.

 

My being guilty for the rest of my life doesent really mean much in the context of a computer game, and really the purpose of this post is to express how I feel the campaign would be enhanced a little, if it was not simply a little stricter, but that if it payed attention to what you do -positive and negative- a little more. Things like leaving your plane on the runway and just quitting for example haha! Life in the army is pretty strict or so I've been told. 

 

At the very least I shouldnt have been given a medal, so I am hereby returning my iron cross and going to live in a monastary!

 

 

Edited April 7, 2018 by Wolf8312

[seafireliv]

Screwed up my takes off 3 times in a row with a friendly crashing into my wing and careering off the runway. On the third screw up, got a medal.

 

Didn`t even complete the mission. It`s things like this where I wish that you at least got a ticking off and NO medal. If I had done this Online, I would at least have the shame of others looking at me disapprovingly... which HAS happened!

 

 

Edited April 7, 2018 by seafireliv

[Wolf8312]

4 minutes ago, seafireliv said:

Screwed up my takes off 3 times in a row with a friendly crashing into my wing and careering off the runway. On the third screw up. Got a medal.

 

Didn`t even fly the mission. It`s things like this where I wish that you at least got a ticking off and NO medal.

 

Haha 3 times I guarantee you would have got alot more than a ticking off, and whatever medals you did have would probably have been taken off you! They would probably assume you were attempting to crash on purpose and have you arrested for cowardice.

They were very strict about such things but people like that (you haha) would almost certainly have been weedled out in basic training anyway.

 

Edited April 7, 2018 by Wolf8312

[seafireliv]

30 minutes ago, Wolf8312 said:

 

Haha 3 times I guarantee you would have got alot more than a ticking off, and whatever medals you did have would probably have been taken off you! They would probably assume you were attempting to crash on purpose and have you arrested for cowardice.

They were very strict about such things but people like that (you haha) would almost certainly have been weedled out in basic training anyway.

 

It happens. Controls screw up, cat jumps on lap, brain fart, jumbo jet lands on house.

[InProgress]

Game won't know if it was accident or on purpose so it's impossible to simulate. I shot down friendly 110 because he has enemy on his tail, I shot down enemy and damaged engine of 110. He crash landed later and survived. Why should I be punished for this? Actually I saved his life, but game won't know it. It just depends on player, you can be careful or play like crazy and shoot your own people all the time, you will be the one ruining immersion for yourself. 

 

Not everything can be simulated and sometimes you have to just use your imagination

[Wolf8312]

2 hours ago, InProgress said:

Game won't know if it was accident or on purpose so it's impossible to simulate. I shot down friendly 110 because he has enemy on his tail, I shot down enemy and damaged engine of 110. He crash landed later and survived. Why should I be punished for this? Actually I saved his life, but game won't know it. It just depends on player, you can be careful or play like crazy and shoot your own people all the time, you will be the one ruining immersion for yourself. 

 

Not everything can be simulated and sometimes you have to just use your imagination

 

I would argue that your shooting your own plane was an accident that might have been avoided!

 

Even if occasionally blamed unfairly I would still personally prefer a legalistic system as suggested above (multiple offences bringing punishment and a reason to fear killing ones own TM accidentally). But that's just me, its quite possible it would be a horrible system in practice haha!

 

And I wasnt suggesting a system that punishes murder either by the way, but accidents and mistakes.

And not just friendly fire either, but a point system that punishes foolish mistakes (bad landings) and awards success (good landings etc).  

 

Sure it will sometimes be unjust, but I'm not suggesting one is taken outside, and shot exactly, although it would be fun for really persistent negligence.

 

Btw I dont shoot my own people all of the time!

[InProgress]

On 7.04.2018 at 10:58 PM, Wolf8312 said:

I would argue that your shooting your own plane was an accident that might have been avoided!

Maybe, maybe not. It's something you have to think about in split of a second and make a choice, maybe i could save him, maybe hit fuel or ammo and make him explode or he would die if i did not do anything and that fighter would get me next. You never know, that's kind of cool sandbox thinking you can do in this kind of games, that it's your decision that will bring consequences. He got engine broken, menaged to fly to our frontline and crashlanded, plane was only damaged and not destroyed, he was not wounded, for me pretty good outcome

[Livai]

Is friendly fire not a dud shot or a toxic behavior? Wrecked own plane in a good state is this not another toxic behavior?

 

 

[InProgress]

1 hour ago, Livai said:

Is friendly fire not a dud shot or a toxic behavior? Wrecked own plane in a good state is this not another toxic behavior?

how can this be toxic? We are talking about single player, fortunately AI does not whine about something that was always happening in real life and will always in game with no hud and friendly fire on.

[Ribbon]

Just think of it that enemy gave you that medal!