Zoom vs Realism.

[Lextor]

Today I had another session of digging in the settings. And I decided not to use zoom anymore, because it is unrealistic. Instead I assigned pilot head movement on my hat-switch: Y = forward/backward, X = left/right, Shift+Y = down/up. Certainly less zoom(if any), but no more distortion of perspective and sight behaves as it should. In short I'm happy. What do you think?  
 
If someone did not understand what I mean, here's a short video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlllFIVLDY8

Edited January 5, 2014 by Lextor

[CreepiJim]

Zoom is not unrealistic, but it looks that way in games.

 

The human eye has much higher resolution than any screen can display with the same field of view. When you look at a distant object, you can see details way better than you could in a game with out zoom, because the resolution does not suffice. "Zoom" was introduced to simulate the ability to see details at longer ranges with the same resolution you could at short ranges.

 

As much as it can be a immersion  breaker, it is realistic to have a high resolution wide field of view that simply can not be simulated with a limited screen size and resolution.

 

I tried to use no zoom in a tactical simulation, but it leads to two things: the engagement distances decrease extremely and you miss alot on distances you would not in the real world. I can imagine it will be the same in a flight sim. You will have a mugh harder time than you would in the real world.

[FuriousMeow]

Zoom is not unrealistic, and I am responding at the same time as Blechbohrer.

 

We are looking at this through varying size windows, 21" up to 30" monitors and then further up in size with TVs that have lower pixel size.

 

Zoom is the best bet to attain realism, or get a monitor that scales appropriately to the viewing size attainable in real life. So a monitor about 52" might show the cockpit appropriately sized which would lend the rest of the world to be sized accordingly. Unfortunately we still have pixels, and until we can have the video card bypassed and the feed goes straight into our occular receptors - we're going to have to deal with what we have - but zoom isn't unrealistic.

[IonicRipper]

This again? It seems every forum about combat flight sims has a thread like this.

As I've always said, zooming in game is just like focusing on something IRL. Nothing unrealistic about it.

Edited January 5, 2014 by IonicRipper

[CreepiJim]

There is always such a thread, because it is nowhere explained for the public why things are the way they are in games.

 

Sadly, the internet has no FAQ for general game related mechanics, so this question is more than valid.

[SKG51_robtek]

If you have to use zoom to fight or to find contacts it is very unrealistic!

It takes away SA and only makes it more complicated as in RL.

The target should be to bring all visual information a RL pilot has to our monitor.

The target shouldn't be to add complications to our already limited view!

IMO, of course

[CreepiJim]

This, robtek, however, is a different issue. You should not have to zoom to see distant targets, just to get more detail in-game as you would IRL with the way the eyes work.

 

Of course zoom seems unrealistic, as I said in my first post, but you won't get around it to do what a real pilot could.

[Lextor]

Zoom is not unrealistic, but it looks that way in games.

 

Well guys, you explained it well. Probably for me the problem was too much distortion. Perhaps a good solution would be to have head movement and slight zoom on the same axis. Its not perfect ofcourse, because if I want to zoom when looking around, pilot head will move. But anyway, I used zoom just for aiming, so for me it fits.. Btw I use 42" LCDTV instead of a monitor.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_C8r4kG57V0

Edited January 5, 2014 by Lextor

[CreepiJim]

I think a good solution would be a key to "zoom in on the sight" so you can look around in your preferred FOV setting and only zoom in to your sight (without the need to physically move the head). And of course an adjustable FOV setting for the sightview.

[Georgio]

The only time I want 'zoom' is for looking at ground targets and then I just lean into my monitor and let TIR zoom for me via the vector expansion. Works a treat and it's realistic.

[Lextor]

I think a good solution would be a key to "zoom in on the sight" so you can look around in your preferred FOV setting and only zoom in to your sight (without the need to physically move the head). And of course an adjustable FOV setting for the sightview.

It is possible now by using pilot-head-snap-position-custom key. The only problem is that you need to hold down this key, which is extremely uncomfortable. But even if it was switchable, I still would hardly use this function. I always change my estrangement from the sight, depending on the distance to the target. Always-maximum or averaged aiming would not fix it.

[CreepiJim]

Ah ok, did not look into the controls much lately. But you are right, I like to have control over my second head in-game, too. But as long as you don't have to use it, it is better than not having it. Should be a toggle, though, like in CloD.

[Fifi]

The thing i find unrealistic about zoom, is:

- No zoom normal FOV no target

- Half zoom no target

- Full zoom target suddently appear

- Back to normal FOV no target

 

In real life, or i can see the target, or i cannot! Even focusing on it.

But target can't be there and not there...in both states.

(don't know if you'll understand what i'm trying to say)

[dburne]

I pretty much just adjust the zoom a little ( slightly back ) from the default once I am in the cockpit, then when needed lean forward using my Track IR.

Granted I don't get a good zoom in on an object, for that I will occasionally use the zoom function, but mostly just use leaning in.

 

Course, that may be why I ain't hittin squat!

Edited January 5, 2014 by dburnette

[pixelshader]

I think I should see at least one grey pixel for planes at 12-15km or further, to simulate sharp eyesight of a young pilot. Without zooming in.

 

I think zooming in should just be for aiming at less than 1km, not a requirement for scanning for contacts. It is just annoying to scan such a small part of the sky at a time when i can't control my view just by moving my eyeball.

[Jaws2002]

 Btw I use 42" LCDTV instead of a monitor.

 

 

 

So you tell me that, since you use a rather large screen (42"),  you now think the zoom should be disabled? You see this is actually the reason zoom is used in games. Most people have a smaller screen than you. Only the zoom can level the playing field....to some degree. Only the zoom allows people with smaller screens to be able to see things you see without. That's why it's there.

 Technology is where it is.  Until we get the image projected in our brain, or straight on our retina, we'll be stuck with a huge variety of screens of different sizes, so we need the zoom.

[pixelshader]

42" tv is the same as any computer monitor half the size, 1920x1080

[Rama]

What some seems to forget is that "no zoom" (wider FoV) is much wider than the FoV of your screen (related to your eyes position), and so disallow you to see objects with their correct apparent size (normally reduced according to FoV ratio). Only the "zoomed" view (when FoV reach the FoV of your screen) allow you to see objects with their correct apparent size. This is pure geometry, and there's nothing you can do to correct that except if an artificial magnification of ALL objects is made (or if only some are magnified, the result will be quite curious in lots of situations, except maybe if only the planes are subject to this artificial magnification). Even if every objects are magnified, the result will certainly be quite weird in some view configuration.

 

So basically, you have no choice, your view is restricted by the 2D small computer screen. The "normal, no zoom" view is an artificial wide FoV allowing you to restore some kind of peripheral vision.

There is no other way to do it. Now, you can't have a "real vision" (both accurate central AND peripheral vision at the same time) without some other artificial tricks (zoom, artificial magnification or icons).

So please don't ask something "realistic", it's something you can't have, unless everybody can purchase an hypothetic hemispheric 3D screen,

You can have some preferences for a specific trick (zoom, magnification, icons), but it's just a choice of confort or drived with opinion, imersion perception, and nothing to do with realism.

[YoYo]

From my side. The "dot" must looks always too same - but if You take a zoom You can see details (of dot), but now it looks like this - no airplane, take a zoom, You will se the "dot". Hmmm. This was in this subject too: http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/3390-spotting-problem/ (Spotting problem).

[arjisme]

Rama nailed it.  Neither the zoomed in nor the zoomed out views are realistic.  It is simply trading one thing for another.  The fact that the game sets as default the wider FOV (aka zoomed out) makes everyone think that is the normal, "realistic" view to use, but it is simply a choice between two unrealistic views.  The wide FOV does a pretty good job of simulating our field of vision, including peripheral view but cannot show the details we could see in the real world.  The narrow (zoomed in) FOV shows the detail we could realistically see, but is an unrealistically narrow view.

[dkoor]

If you have to use zoom to fight or to find contacts it is very unrealistic!

It takes away SA and only makes it more complicated as in RL.

The target should be to bring all visual information a RL pilot has to our monitor.

The target shouldn't be to add complications to our already limited view!

IMO, of course

IMO too.

Not sure how anyone can argue with these simple facts.

SA and viewing at distance are by far the most important thing in flight sims.

The thing i find unrealistic about zoom, is:

- No zoom normal FOV no target

- Half zoom no target

- Full zoom target suddently appear

- Back to normal FOV no target

 

In real life, or i can see the target, or i cannot! Even focusing on it.

But target can't be there and not there...in both states.

(don't know if you'll understand what i'm trying to say)

I know and everybody else who plays these games know exactly what you are saying.

And that is also a problem for itself.

 

Fully zoomed in or fully zoomed out something should be there.

The wide FOV does a pretty good job of simulating our field of vision, including peripheral view but cannot show the details we could see in the real world.  The narrow (zoomed in) FOV shows the detail we could realistically see, but is an unrealistically narrow view.

You summarized it pretty well.

[Bearcat]

There is always such a thread, because it is nowhere explained for the public why things are the way they are in games.

 

Sadly, the internet has no FAQ for general game related mechanics, so this question is more than valid.

 

 

It should be obvious.. it is a game.. there is no way in the world that flight can be "realistically simulated" from a PC at a desk...with a  looking through a box... even if it is a big box as in a projector. This talk of realism is what simmers do to separate their genre from others and feel superior to other gamers.. whether they want to admit it or not..  but at the end of the day this is a game.. Any talk of "realism" is couched in the fact that no matter how real it gets.. it isn't real and it isn't even close. The degrees of realism only apply when comparing between sims.. at least that's me two cents.

[dkoor]

What some seems to forget is that "no zoom" (wider FoV) is much wider than the FoV of your screen (related to your eyes position), and so disallow you to see objects with their correct apparent size (normally reduced according to FoV ratio). Only the "zoomed" view (when FoV reach the FoV of your screen) allow you to see objects with their correct apparent size. 

This unless we are talking about total extremes in screen size is not what bothers 99% people here.

 

Spotting contacts at distance, or dots, on today's screens would be related more to image quality than what you mentioned, human field and whatnot.

 

I mean if you take pro camera at 10 megapixels it will show way more detail on smaller image than 20 megapixel shitty camera that shows bigger picture.

What we have here is about the same thing.

 

So apparently we have this "shitty cam" that can't reproduce details right and what do we do?

I don't think that further over-complication of the issue will help.

[FuriousMeow]

You are playing on a flat panel single monitor that doesn't allow peripheral vision. At best you are playing on a 3 panel setup to give a bit of a wrap around view to simulate peripheral. In any event, none of these are realistic.

 

So how is zoom, that allows the display of objects to actually be 1:1 with reality, less realistic? It at least shows everything 1:1 as opposed to shrunk down on a single pane monitor that has zero peripheral capabilities that also has zero depth perception due to lack of true 3D capabilities.

 

Even the much anticipated Oculus Rift will lack peripheral capabilities, but it's a much closer approach than monitors but it too will lack 1:1 display capabilities.

 

Zoom isn't less realistic when the apparatus we are using to view the sim world is in itself unrealistic. None of what we are looking at is 1:1, which is why there is such an issue with people complaining about "spotting" and why icons make the most sense to alleviate said "spotting" issue.

Edited January 6, 2014 by FuriousMeow

[jaydee]

The thing i find unrealistic about zoom, is:

- No zoom normal FOV no target

- Half zoom no target

- Full zoom target suddently appear

- Back to normal FOV no target

 

In real life, or i can see the target, or i cannot! Even focusing on it.

But target can't be there and not there...in both states.

(don't know if you'll understand what i'm trying to say)

I entirely agree Fifi !

My biggest gripe with COD was not being able to "See" and "Track" aircraft ! Zoomin in and totally Losing the target Ac as it changed its LOD !....Zooming "Back" into the cockpit and finding my I am yawing too much, etc.Then looking to find my target again !

Anyone that's flown COD recently,will attest to the change since TF addressed this Gripe of mine(and many others).

Now I can "See" co-altitude "Specs" from 4-5 Ks out,point my nose in front of them,fix my trim,adjust pitch etc,most importantly,keep my "Ball" centred......No Zoom needed so far !

If you are like me,you will "predict" an intercept point that puts yourself  directly over the top of your "Date" !...All the time,your checkin youre behind,you look back,you can still see see your target A/c "Floating" beneath" you!

So you Roll over and pull back down(watch your carbie Spits)!

Check the Ball as you Run in ! The Ball is centred !! Yes,Finally time to ZOOM IN ! As I LEAN to Gs !

As I leaned I got PKed !

whatever TF have done with LODs,etc,it (for me is a  game changer) !

If we are all going to enjoy Flying with eachother and "Against" eachother ! WE have to be able to "SEE" eachother"......

So far TFs being successful !   ~S~ J

[jaydee]

sry lex,im not good with typing and words ! my point is if the "Sim" gets it right,we don't need zoom ! ~S~

[MarcoRossolini]

I entirely agree Fifi !

My biggest gripe with COD was not being able to "See" and "Track" aircraft ! Zoomin in and totally Losing the target Ac as it changed its LOD !....Zooming "Back" into the cockpit and finding my I am yawing too much, etc.Then looking to find my target again !

Anyone that's flown COD recently,will attest to the change since TF addressed this Gripe of mine(and many others).

Now I can "See" co-altitude "Specs" from 4-5 Ks out,point my nose in front of them,fix my trim,adjust pitch etc,most importantly,keep my "Ball" centred......No Zoom needed so far !

If you are like me,you will "predict" an intercept point that puts yourself  directly over the top of your "Date" !...All the time,your checkin youre behind,you look back,you can still see see your target A/c "Floating" beneath" you!

So you Roll over and pull back down(watch your carbie Spits)!

Check the Ball as you Run in ! The Ball is centred !! Yes,Finally time to ZOOM IN ! As I LEAN to Gs !

As I leaned I got PKed !

whatever TF have done with LODs,etc,it (for me is a  game changer) !

If we are all going to enjoy Flying with eachother and "Against" eachother ! WE have to be able to "SEE" eachother"......

So far TFs being successful !   ~S~ J

 

A similar thing as you describe happens in "full real" battles in War Thunder, its easier to track stuff non-zoomed in. 

[CreepiJim]

It should be obvious.. it is a game.. there is no way in the world that flight can be "realistically simulated" from a PC at a desk...with a  looking through a box... even if it is a big box as in a projector. This talk of realism is what simmers do to separate their genre from others and feel superior to other gamers.. whether they want to admit it or not..  but at the end of the day this is a game.. Any talk of "realism" is couched in the fact that no matter how real it gets.. it isn't real and it isn't even close. The degrees of realism only apply when comparing between sims.. at least that's me two cents.

 

I am not just talking about flight sims. Every game with zoom sooner or later has people wondering why the zoom is necessary. And I can't remember I have ever read a somewhat scientifical explanation besides those of players like us posting the obvious. My point was, that this discussion will always come up as long as people don't understand the limitations of a PC environment compared to the real world. How much realism the game itself has is irrelevant at this point.

[6S.Manu]

I am not just talking about flight sims. Every game with zoom sooner or later has people wondering why the zoom is necessary. And I can't remember I have ever read a somewhat scientifical explanation besides those of players like us posting the obvious. My point was, that this discussion will always come up as long as people don't understand the limitations of a PC environment compared to the real world. How much realism the game itself has is irrelevant at this point.

 

I've read complains about the zoom function also in the forums of Arma or RO ( above all the RO2's one was really pathetic; simply because the players were not simmers). 

 

Having said that I don't understand which scientific explanation you are looking for; it's all on FoV.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Field_of_view_in_video_games

Edited January 6, 2014 by 6S.Manu

[Lextor]

And what's the point of all these "such threads always arise.." responses? If you don't like this thread, just let it drown. I got the scientific explanation why FOV angle adjustment is necessary from the very first reply by Blechbohrer. But still, in the game it looks bad and unnatural. I'm not saying that you should set the angle and prevent it from changing. I'd like to limit it to a reasonable range, which I did for my profile. And I don't impose anything on anyone, everyone is free to play as he likes.

[Bearcat]

The thing i find unrealistic about zoom, is:- No zoom normal FOV no target- Half zoom no target- Full zoom target suddently appear- Back to normal FOV no target In real life, or i can see the target, or i cannot! Even focusing on it.But target can't be there and not there...in both states.(don't know if you'll understand what i'm trying to say)

Isn't that a matter of lod? Wop was famous for that.

[Fifi]

Probably right Bearcat.

Never tried WoP.