Runaway-Tactics

[cellinsky]

The carriere is great! However: Its the third time in a row I became a POW as a Schlachtflieger (FW190 A5/F3), because of overheating my engine whilst running away from some Lagg3`s! They not only down my whole schwarm everytime, they pursuit me all the way on full power without any difficulties. No trace of damaging there engines whilst Im forced full power to just avoid get caught. Im aware that the F3 is more draggy and sluggish because of additional armour and ETCs, but still... Any advice from the Pros on tactics to get home save? Or at least to have a chance reaching the homefield without damaging the engine.

 

Marcel

Edited March 28, 2018 by cellinsky

[CrazyDuck]

What you are describing was in reality solved by Russians only by introducing La-5FN/La-7 and the mighty Yak-9U (VK-107). Other red fighters (although great dogfighters) were unable to consistently catch the 190A JaBos once they dropped their eggs and turned home.

[EAF19_Marsh]

That is a really hard career; my record is 3 missions before killed or captured. I would suggest:

- Careful about following the schwarm lead as he tends to cruise underneath VVS fighter units

- Circle the target and attack from a direction that leads you straight back towards German lines

- Try to go in and out once rather than multiple runs

- Keep the power settings on sustained until you make your attack then dial it up to 11 (1.65 ata) for your run-in and egress.

- Try to avoid turning to against opponents; bit of rolling and rudder with your nose pointing at the deck and in the direction of the bridgehead.

 

But it is a tricky one!

[cellinsky]

Thanks for the advice. Very much apperciated. I will try once more with the above in mind and basically be a coward and not helping my buddys out anymore. After all they have to blame themselves. Cudos to the devs in making this sim so immersive that I feel sorry for a chunk of code

Thanks again, guys

[A_radek]

3 hours ago, CrazyDuck said:

What you are describing was in reality solved by Russians only by introducing La-5FN/La-7 and the mighty Yak-9U (VK-107). Other red fighters (although great dogfighters) were unable to consistently catch the 190A JaBos once they dropped their eggs and turned home.

Not saying your wrong, this might very well have been the case. But an interesting tidbit and some food for thought from 'Red Star Airacobra - Evgeniy Mariinskiy':
 

"There were rumours at the front that the Germans had been shifting bomber pilots on to FW-190 fighter planes. They were hanging bombs on Fockers, installing extra cannon on them, and using this aircraft as a dive-bomber and a ground-attack machine. Probably, this time we had encountered these kinds of ‘aces’. This opinion was confirmed soon.

On 25 April, Gulayev’s ‘sixer’ came across twenty-five Fockers. They flew in columns. Even their flights consisted not of four planes each, like fighters, but of three as bombers would do. Gulayev himself, shot down all three Fockers of the trailing flight, in the first attack. Then shot down two more. And the whole group shot down eleven Fockers all up! And what about the Fockers? They rendered almost no resistance, dropped the bombs and did their best to flee as fast as possible."

Pretty much throughout this book the 190's are considered as easy as "clodhoppers" (ju-87). If I remember correctly, on only one occasion does the author encounter an fw that fights back and he is very surprised it can. 

[CrazyDuck]

8 minutes ago, a_radek said:

Not saying your wrong, this might very well have been the case. But an interesting tidbit and some food for thought from 'Red Star Airacobra - Evgeniy Mariinskiy':
 

"There were rumours at the front that the Germans had been shifting bomber pilots on to FW-190 fighter planes. They were hanging bombs on Fockers, installing extra cannon on them, and using this aircraft as a dive-bomber and a ground-attack machine. Probably, this time we had encountered these kinds of ‘aces’. This opinion was confirmed soon.

On 25 April, Gulayev’s ‘sixer’ came across twenty-five Fockers. They flew in columns. Even their flights consisted not of four planes each, like fighters, but of three as bombers would do. Gulayev himself, shot down all three Fockers of the trailing flight, in the first attack. Then shot down two more. And the whole group shot down eleven Fockers all up! And what about the Fockers? They rendered almost no resistance, dropped the bombs and did their best to flee as fast as possible."

Pretty much throughout this book the 190's are considered as easy as "clodhoppers" (ju-87). If I remember correctly, on only one occasion does the author encounter an fw that fights back and he is very surprised it can. 

 

I remember an interview with some Soviet fighter pilot, being asked about his opinion of German fighters generally. He explained his opinion thoroughly on the Bf 109. When asked what he thinks about the Fw 190 specifically, he replied: "Fw 190? That was a ground attack aircraft!"

 

BTW, I'm not saying Soviets didn't shoot down Fw 190s before their monstrous trio were introduced. Of course a Yak-1 or P-39 could shoot down a Fw 190 in an advantageous situations. But it was only the FNs and especially La-7s and Yak-9Us, which could respond to a distress call, and without initial E advantage run after the fleeing Fw 190s and catch them before they got away.

Edited March 28, 2018 by CrazyDuck

[deimos256]

I haven’t flown the A5 yet with the R3 modification but I’d have to imagine that the R3 really hobbles the A5.  After all it’s biggest advantage over the Russians was speed, and that gets nixed when you strap a bunch of armor and racks to the plane.  I have a book on the 190f8, and talks a lot about the eastern front, but it’s been a good 20 years since I read it.   May have to dig it out!

[EAF19_Marsh]

It gets higher boost and the added density should improve its dive acceleration. Top speed at sea level is higher than the standard A5, but energy loss will be higher when manoeuvring.

 

So it should be at least as fast in a straight line or dive, but not when mixing - hence my advise to attack towards you lines and then don;t stop for nobody.

[CrazyDuck]

53 minutes ago, EAF19_Marsh said:

hence my advise to attack towards you lines and then don;t stop for nobody.

 

Interestingly enough, this was also the tactics of the IL-2s. They would flank the enemy ground formation and attack from behind. Common misconception is that this was due to attacking the tanks from behind. The real reason was to be able to extend towards friendly teritory and improve the chances to reach it even in case of fatal engine damage during the attack.

[A_radek]

1 hour ago, CrazyDuck said:

BTW, I'm not saying Soviets didn't shoot down Fw 190s before their monstrous trio were introduced. Of course a Yak-1 or P-39 could shoot down a Fw 190 in an advantageous situations. But it was only the FNs and especially La-7s and Yak-9Us, which could respond to a distress call, and without initial E advantage run after the fleeing Fw 190s and catch them before they got away.

Same book as above mentions a situation where Evgeniy Mariinskiys mechanic worked all night to replace a worn out engine on his p-39. He finished by morning and had replaced it with another used engine they hoped would perform better. It did, slightly. Later when attempting a take-off Evgeniy had to release the drop tank at the end of the runway not to plow nearby terrain. These were the aircraft they fought in. Not pristine and factory fresh examples every spawn.

My point is, if those fw's had engines in a similar state and were for whatever reason relying on speed only - no wonder a red pilots opinion of the fw was colored.

I see the difficulty in achieving this but really wish we could have engine/aircraft wear for a career/online campaign. In my opinion something far more important for realism than the fruit of those endless '1 vs 3 min wep times for pristine aircraft' discussions.

[GSP_Hund]

Now this maybe cheating on my behalf, but I'm flying the 190A5 in the JABO campaign but without the strike mod and always take an sc500 on the mission.  I always climb to 3-4k, dive bomb @ around 600-700kmh then get the hell out of there.  If you follow your leader @ 1k plodding along through all their defenses and over red positions while enroute it's just trouble and you probably won't survive.  After experiencing that on the first 1-2 missions I switched things around.  I've not had any enemy fighters be able to catch me on the deck in the SP campaign while flying this profile, don't take the A5 with the strike mod, too heavy and slow.  Now I've had the LaGGs, Yak1 & 7s,  follow me all the way back to base (Anapa) and have to tangle with them along with friendly AAA, but it's still damn fun!  Keep in mind the "boost" was to compensate for the heavier Jabo options like extra armor and wind resistance/drag from the wing racks, you can only run that for so long before you overheat and blow your engine . . . .

Edited March 28, 2018 by II./JG77_Hund

[Stig]

2 hours ago, a_radek said:

Not saying your wrong, this might very well have been the case. But an interesting tidbit and some food for thought from 'Red Star Airacobra - Evgeniy Mariinskiy':
 

"There were rumours at the front that the Germans had been shifting bomber pilots on to FW-190 fighter planes. They were hanging bombs on Fockers, installing extra cannon on them, and using this aircraft as a dive-bomber and a ground-attack machine. Probably, this time we had encountered these kinds of ‘aces’. This opinion was confirmed soon.

On 25 April, Gulayev’s ‘sixer’ came across twenty-five Fockers. They flew in columns. Even their flights consisted not of four planes each, like fighters, but of three as bombers would do. Gulayev himself, shot down all three Fockers of the trailing flight, in the first attack. Then shot down two more. And the whole group shot down eleven Fockers all up! And what about the Fockers? They rendered almost no resistance, dropped the bombs and did their best to flee as fast as possible."

Pretty much throughout this book the 190's are considered as easy as "clodhoppers" (ju-87). If I remember correctly, on only one occasion does the author encounter an fw that fights back and he is very surprised it can. 

 

Fw 190 pilots of the Schlacht- and Schnellkampf Geshwader were considered bomber pilots by the Luftwaffe; some were certainly experienced fighter pilots, while others probably had flown 2-engine bombers or Stukas earlier. Either way, once with a ground attack unit, they were bomber pilots, even if their mount was a Fw 190 or Bf 109. My source on this is Arthy and Jessen's

books on the Focke Wulf in North Africa and Sicily. 

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

Are you closing up your cowls?  Because LAGGs shouldn't be chasing you down.

 

Also with the strike mod, you need to fly extremely low to get the 1.65 ata on boost; but if you do, there is no way a LAGG is catching you.  Not even close.

[PatrickAWlson]

My understanding of FW190 Jabo pilots is that they really were bomber or dive bomber pilots.  Doesn't mean it didn't happen, but I am not aware of a general policy to move fighter pilots to Jabo units.

 

As has been well stated, the FW190 that most Russian units encountered were armored ground attack variants flown by dedicated bomber/ground attack pilots.  They were not fighters.  The most famous dedicated fighter 190 unit in Russia, JG54, accounted for itself quite well.

Edited March 28, 2018 by PatrickAWlson

[-SF-Disarray]

Even in a dive-bomber configuration the 190 retains MG and cannon no? I'd suggest killing your enemy. 10 out of 10 people agree dead people will very rarely ever kill you back. I know what you are thinking, "If I turn and fight 3 LaGG 3's at the same time I might get shot down!" And you may well be correct, but it seems you are getting taken down anyway so you might as well go down swinging. A fight against 3 human opponents may be quite the handful but 3 AI are really quite manageable, especially when they are rocking the LaGG 3 and you have all the power of the 190 at your command. Even if they were in LA 5's, I should think the human player would win more often than not.

[EAF19_Marsh]

Quote

The real reason was to be able to extend towards friendly teritory and improve the chances to reach it even in case of fatal engine damage during the attack.

 

I wonder if it also bypassed some of the front-line flak? I recall Rudel and his G model unit did something similar both to attack from the rear but also so that he could head straight back to friendly territory if hit. Sounds like several people cottoned on to it as time went by - maybe Darwinian

 

Out of interest, has anyone undertaken any testing on the performance difference? I am going by 'feel' which is that 1.65, cowling shut and ball centred the schlacht mod if very fast at zero feet in a straight line.

 

This thread really makes me want to get back into my 190 campaign!

[JG4_Sputnik]

4 hours ago, a_radek said:

Not saying your wrong, this might very well have been the case. But an interesting tidbit and some food for thought from 'Red Star Airacobra - Evgeniy Mariinskiy':
 

"There were rumours at the front that the Germans had been shifting bomber pilots on to FW-190 fighter planes. They were hanging bombs on Fockers, installing extra cannon on them, and using this aircraft as a dive-bomber and a ground-attack machine. Probably, this time we had encountered these kinds of ‘aces’. This opinion was confirmed soon.

On 25 April, Gulayev’s ‘sixer’ came across twenty-five Fockers. They flew in columns. Even their flights consisted not of four planes each, like fighters, but of three as bombers would do. Gulayev himself, shot down all three Fockers of the trailing flight, in the first attack. Then shot down two more. And the whole group shot down eleven Fockers all up! And what about the Fockers? They rendered almost no resistance, dropped the bombs and did their best to flee as fast as possible."

Pretty much throughout this book the 190's are considered as easy as "clodhoppers" (ju-87). If I remember correctly, on only one occasion does the author encounter an fw that fights back and he is very surprised it can. 

 

I managed to survive 15 missions in Iron Man mode in the Kuban with my Fw190A5 - 29 Victories and 31 Ground Targets.

I never had problems running after the attack. I got shot down by my own Flak when yet again an enemy chased me all the way back across the map back to my own airfield. It was a tragedy! Full hit right to the cockpit and insta death.

 

About the book  'Red Star Airacobra - Evgeniy Mariinskiy', I only can say that this was, mildly said, very patriotic colored - ALL the german pilots where cowards, didn't know how to fly (Stuka pilots dropped their bombs on their own soldiers only because they saw 4 enemy planes on the horizon...), fighters abandoned their wingmen and headed back home,  in every engagement there there were about 5 times as much german fighters in the air plus 30 Stukas against like 4 Sovjet Aircorbras and still Evgeniy and his team shot down most of them and chased away all the others... This book is so full of Soviet propaganda that I would read it with a big grain of salt... Its one of the worst war books I've read so far (and I have read plenty).

 

 

 

 

[EAF19_Marsh]

Quote

I managed to survive 15 missions in Iron Man mode in the Kuban with my Fw190A5 - 29 Victories and 31 Ground Targets.

 

Good effort!

 

Quote

About the book  'Red Star Airacobra - Evgeniy Mariinskiy', I only can say that this was, mildly said, very patriotic colored

 

It was a little bit that way, which made it seem all the odder how vague and unstructured his unit seems to have been. I wondered whether some of this was a language / cultural aspect as well, that makes it seem more extreme to a non-Russian reader.

[Stig]

58 minutes ago, JG4_Sputnik said:

 

I managed to survive 15 missions in Iron Man mode in the Kuban with my Fw190A5 - 29 Victories and 31 Ground Targets.

I never had problems running after the attack. I got shot down by my own Flak when yet again an enemy chased me all the way back across the map back to my own airfield. It was a tragedy! Full hit right to the cockpit and insta death.

 

About the book  'Red Star Airacobra - Evgeniy Mariinskiy', I only can say that this was, mildly said, very patriotic colored - ALL the german pilots where cowards, didn't know how to fly (Stuka pilots dropped their bombs on their own soldiers only because they saw 4 enemy planes on the horizon...), fighters abandoned their wingmen and headed back home,  in every engagement there there were about 5 times as much german fighters in the air plus 30 Stukas against like 4 Sovjet Aircorbras and still Evgeniy and his team shot down most of them and chased away all the others... This book is so full of Soviet propaganda that I would read it with a big grain of salt... Its one of the worst war books I've read so far (and I have read plenty).

 

 

 

 

 

I haven't read that book, but it wouldn't surprise me at all if your opinion of the book is spot on. That doesn't detract from the Luftwaffe's own classification of Schlacht pilots as bomber pilots.

In general,  whether the Airacobra met Fw 190 fighters or Fw 190 Jabos, I doubt that they shot down any where near as many as they claimed.

[JG4_Sputnik]

1 hour ago, EAF19_Marsh said:

 

Good effort!

 

 

It was a little bit that way, which made it seem all the odder how vague and unstructured his unit seems to have been. I wondered whether some of this was a language / cultural aspect as well, that makes it seem more extreme to a non-Russian reader.

Thanks!

Yeah that could be of course.

But it is rather obvious that the writer (for obvious reasons) wanted to be "politically on line" with what was considered to be "correct" at that time, which is ok but as I said, one should not read that book as a proper source.

 

But we should leave politics aside.

I wonder if the 1.65 ata is cumulative, meaning that you can have it on for say 3mins and then 7mins remain. Or if it has a cool down.

Also the temperature never seemed to go up, so I never knew when my motor would blow up. Is there an indicator that gives me a hint when it is time to slow down?

I mostly flew it by guts...

[A_radek]

Sputnik, I agree.

 

I've also read my fair share of these as I enjoy reading pilot memoirs. Much of the dramatization or propaganda if you will is quite obvious. 

 

Though it is one of the few from an east front p-39 pilots perspective. Pokryshkins memories not being available in a language I'm comfortable reading.

 

However, salted kill claims aside, I find it unlikely their general and peculiar view of the Fw was as negative as it was out of propaganda reasons alone. They did praise the 109 as a very dangerous fighter which would go against such an agenda.

[EAF19_Marsh]

Quote

 

I wonder if the 1.65 ata is cumulative, meaning that you can have it on for say 3mins and then 7mins remain. Or if it has a cool down.

Also the temperature never seemed to go up, so I never knew when my motor would blow up. Is there an indicator that gives me a hint when it is time to slow down?

I mostly flew it by guts...

 

 

Not sure, but as soon as the children are in bed I'll see if I can determine. The Fw is something I would love to master

 

Quote

They did praise the 109 as a very dangerous fighter which would go against such an agenda.

 

Most Russian pilots tend to dismiss the 190 while being (rightly) impressed by the 109, which is something of the opposite of a lot of Western pilot memoirs. I think this is something of a collective memory issue, whereby 109s are associated with the disastrous days of 1941-4s, while the 190 was only met in quantity from late 1943 onward, when the war was being won. Thus, whatever the actual strengths and weaknesses of the 2 fighters, the collective VVS view is that 109s were bad news and 190s far less so as, reinforced by the tendency of 190s on the EF to be operating mostly as fighter-bombers and less likely to jump Soviet fighters on a freie jagd.

[[CPT]Crunch]

If you have cloud cover, use it.  Had a 109 in hot pursuit about three klicks back in a winchester P-40, guess he was pissed about what I did to his wingman.  Slowly climbed up into the middle of the cloud layer on a straight course for home with him gaining all the way.  In the IMC somehow he ended up above and slightly ahead, what I'd have given for just one more burst.  Once close enough to base I baited him into a K-61 flak trap, my retarded flight wouldn't snap out of nav light landing mode.

[cellinsky]

Thanks for all the advice. It helped me to survive a view more days in a new carriere as a "Schlächter", but I think this carrier (FW190 Fighterbomber) is defenitiv not as it should be: In every mission I was the sole surviver! See the screenshot. The lossrate was insane.  And there was never ever any fighter-cover. In fact, there was only my Schwarm an hordes of Yaks and Laggs in the air. Seems the whole Jagdstaffel at Anapa  is on Heimaturlaub . This is on "normal" and "dense" . However, I tried the same style of  carrier, this time with the Henschel and it is much better. Fighter-cover all the way and defensive tactics against fighters, if they ever manage to come close. Making good progress here. Im sure the devs will sort things like this in one of the next patches and we can enjoy less suicidal groundponding with the Focke.

[Yogiflight]

On 28.3.2018 at 8:23 PM, JG4_Sputnik said:

Thanks!

Yeah that could be of course.

But it is rather obvious that the writer (for obvious reasons) wanted to be "politically on line" with what was considered to be "correct" at that time, which is ok but as I said, one should not read that book as a proper source.

 

But we should leave politics aside.

I wonder if the 1.65 ata is cumulative, meaning that you can have it on for say 3mins and then 7mins remain. Or if it has a cool down.

Also the temperature never seemed to go up, so I never knew when my motor would blow up. Is there an indicator that gives me a hint when it is time to slow down?

I mostly flew it by guts...

You can use it ten minutes, then cool down for at least the same time and reuse it. That the temperature doesn't rise is because of the cooling effect of the engine through the additional fuel.

And yes I always wonder how everybody speaks about propaganda, when it is about stories of german pilots, but takes everything as pure truth, that is written from russian side.