BoBP - Tank Busting

[LukeFF]

3 hours ago, Eicio said:

At the end of the war the germans didn't have the same resources capabilities and it had an effect on the tanks armor, so the late panther should have at least the same amount of armor but the quality wasn't there anymore, that is nearly impossible to duplicate in a sim, game or anything.

 

Sure it is. The Combat Mission series of games simulates the brittle tendecy of late-war German armor quite well.

[Gunsmith86]

14 hours ago, Eicio said:

 

At the end of the war the germans didn't have the same resources capabilities and it had an effect on the tanks armor, so the late panther should have at least the same amount of armor but the quality wasn't there anymore, that is nearly impossible to duplicate in a sim, game or anything.

 

Well in reality the german industry did know about the lesser quality of the material and made plates that with good quality steel had 80mm now 85-90mm thick which made them just as hard to penetrate as the the 80mm good quality steel plates. So if we measure the armore plate of a late Panther that should have 80mm we will often see that it is in reality 85-90mm thick.

Edited April 1, 2018 by Gunsmith86

[Eicio]

11 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

Sure it is. The Combat Mission series of games simulates the brittle tendecy of late-war German armor quite well.

 

Interesting, I've never heard of this game and I found that it's not available on steam, I found a website but it's way too much expensive, 80$ for a 2011 game, ouch. Reminds me of the DCS store 

Edited April 1, 2018 by Eicio

[Gunsmith86]

[LuftManu]

So this thread its still a thing lol

 

Are you guys still believing that a .50 cal can take out a Tiger? or even a tank? there is a slight difference in the dammage it can do to some sights, tracks.. but taking it out? What? 

 

I can't wait for the "Tiger tank too op, my P51/P47 can't destroy it"

Edited April 1, 2018 by LF_ManuV

[7.GShAP/Silas]

There will be a lot of screaming, yeah.  None of it backed up by weapons testing, just fish stories.

[Cybermat47]

It’ll be interesting to see post CaP multiplayer. I imagine it’ll involve P-47s trying to kill Tigers with bouncing .50s, and Tigers trying to kill P-47s with the main cannon.

[sevenless]

6 hours ago, Gunsmith86 said:

 

Well in reality the german industry did know about the lesser quality of the material and made plates that with good quality steel had 80mm now 85-90mm thick which made them just as hard to penetrate as the the 80mm good quality steel plates. So if we measure the armore plate of a late Panther that should have 80mm we will often see that it is in reality 85-90mm thick.

 

 

What kind of source is that? Tales from the internet? Not one reference given and lots of numbers presented. I'm wondering where they come from? Just a bad (if at al) referenced semester copy&paste work? In one case it states: Figures from John Salts webpage suggest...Ridiculous!

[Gunsmith86]

2 hours ago, sevenless said:

 

 

What kind of source is that? Tales from the internet? Not one reference given and lots of numbers presented. I'm wondering where they come from? Just a bad (if at al) referenced semester copy&paste work? In one case it states: Figures from John Salts webpage suggest...Ridiculous!

 

 As far as it concerns John Salt.  I doubt that anyone on this forum knows only half as much about armor and AP ammunition as John Salt. I have seen one other work from him and must say that i belive its quiet good. If thats good enough for you i don´t know but here are the rest of the sources from this book:

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 1, 2018 by Gunsmith86

[Hirachi]

Not sure if the Tempest will get rockets but i wouldn't expect them to be accurate just look at these typhoons shooting 60Lb rocket they going all over the place 

 

 

[seafireliv]

Were there any accounts from the GERMANS of their tanks being destroyed by  .50 cals of attacking aircraft? I think if that was the case there`d be some documents on it seeing that they`d be at ground zero- Infantry nearby and the like. I see no reason why they would keep that secret after the war.

 

 

Edited April 1, 2018 by seafireliv

[=LD=Hethwill]

27 minutes ago, seafireliv said:

Were there any accounts from the GERMANS of their tanks being destroyed by  .50 cals of attacking aircraft?

 

Given the poor fellows were under attack from land forces which called help from the Jugs I'm sure it is the last thing anyone will find. What we will find is reports of "allied jabos making life miserable" ?

 

I mean, in game when we attack a column the AI disperses, loses time, gets somewhat stopped. To a point that should lend time to our side AI ground to advance. No matter the tanks, straffe the trucks and halftracks.

Edited April 1, 2018 by =LD=Hethwill

[seafireliv]

13 minutes ago, =LD=Hethwill said:

 

Given the poor fellows were under attack from land forces which called help from the Jugs I'm sure it is the last thing anyone will find. What we will find is reports of "allied jabos making life miserable" ?

 

I mean, in game when we attack a column the AI disperses, loses time, gets somewhat stopped. To a point that should lend time to our side AI ground to advance. No matter the tanks, straffe the trucks and halftracks.

It`s not that simple. The area might be attacked and any obvious vehicles destroyed, but not every infantry would be killed or even in complete disarray. The Germans didn`t all just run away like shrieking girls. The Allies didn`t always get to immediately take over an area attacked since it might be quite far behind the lines. Sometimes the Germans returned, retook an area and had a look at the carnage to try to see what specifically caused it before any enemy troops got to the area. This is how you gain intelligence and learn what the enemy is using effectively against you, even when you`re losing.

Edited April 1, 2018 by seafireliv

[=LD=Hethwill]

Of course, but the same for all tactical level. Thing is, company level they would report what !? That the tanks got put out of commission by enemy action and overwhelming air support ? Don't think there will be that many forensic data of how many hits, where and what did they damage, especially when a tank is left stranded on the side of the road. Once an area is secure then the intelligence gathering can start, specialists come in and check the damage, in relative safety.

 

 

 

 

[sevenless]

15 hours ago, Gunsmith86 said:

 

 As far as it concerns John Salt.  I doubt that anyone on this forum knows only half as much about armor and AP ammunition as John Salt. I have seen one other work from him and must say that i belive its quiet good. If thats good enough for you i don´t know but here are the rest of the sources from this book:

I see. That makes as much sense as citing the library of Alexandria as a source. Both, the library of Alexandria and John Salts webpage don't exist anymore. Had he used the original primary document as a source and stated so, everyone would exactly know what he referred to, but the author decided otherwise and thus rendered the whole text scientifically worthless.

[Gambit21]

Not about tanks, but...

From Hell Hawks, Dorr

 

"Vandenberg's headquarters received a teletype on December 19th , confirming that air attacks on the enemy column forced it from its westward advance, diverting it south. Advancing First Army units shoring up the northern flank of the Bulge on the 20th, discovered that actual damage inflicted by the Hell Hawks and other fighter-bomber groups on the wrecked German column exceeded pilot's claims."

 

Again, that has nothing to do with tanks,

What it does relate to is the contention 70 years later that all pilots over-claimed all the time, and using that to shore up a position on anything at all.

[AndyJWest]

42 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

Not about tanks, but...

From Hell Hawks, Dorr

 

"Vandenberg's headquarters received a teletype on December 19th , confirming that air attacks on the enemy column forced it from its westward advance, diverting it south. Advancing First Army units shoring up the northern flank of the Bulge on the 20th, discovered that actual damage inflicted by the Hell Hawks and other fighter-bomber groups on the wrecked German column exceeded pilot's claims."

 

Again, that has nothing to do with tanks,

What it does relate to is the contention 70 years later that all pilots over-claimed all the time, and using that to shore up a position on anything at all.

 

A bit of a straw man there, Gambit: I don't think anyone is arguing that pilots over-claimed all the time. If anything, your example serves to illustrate the point that pilots aren't necessarily best-placed to accurately assess damage in ground attacks.

[Gambit21]

7 minutes ago, AndyJWest said:

 

A bit of a straw man there, Gambit: I don't think anyone is arguing that pilots over-claimed all the time. If anything, your example serves to illustrate the point that pilots aren't necessarily best-placed to accurately assess damage in ground attacks.

 

Its not a straw man Andy - I've seen that eluded to on this very forum - but point taken nonetheless .

I don't feel like typing a page on my IPad beyond that.

Also remember the squadrons placed pilots in forward positions in tanks as controllers.

This 'on the ground' observation helped establish tactics for the fighter-bomber groups.

 

Again, leaving tanks out of it.

Edited April 3, 2018 by Gambit21

[MikeDitka]

I just read a passage in Hell Hawks about the ricochet “tactics” and it struck me as interesting that it’s first brought up in context of the Jugs strafing a Panzer in order to suppress it and let Allied tanks take it out.

 

Seems like a good use of ordnance to me even if the idea of the ricochet is flawed.

[6./ZG26_Custard]

tl:dr

 

If was possible to knock out Tigers with .50 cals why oh why did the allies even bother to load up with rockets and bombs on their aircraft.? Come to think of it, why bother fitting a QF 17-pounder to the firefly?  Think of the time and effort (and money) that would have been saved if they had fitted the tanks with some kind of  bouncing .50 cal weapons to knock out that armour . 

[Gambit21]

Exactly Custard...but that was never really the conversation, and for some reason everyone gets stuck on Tigers...which wasn't ever the point either.

I know exactly the passage Ditka is talking about.

 

The P-47's strafe the tank, panic the commander, and while he's distracted trying to avoid the Jugs a Sherman takes it out.

A good use of ordinance, but as he says the .50's are not "killing' the tank by any means in this  instance.

In this case it was reportedly a Tiger, but somehow I doubt it.

[AndyJWest]

1 hour ago, Gambit21 said:

...for some reason everyone gets stuck on Tigers...which wasn't ever the point either...

 

This thread starts with a video entitled "P-47 strafing a Tiger", in which the pilot expressly refers to Tiger tanks. How are Tigers not 'the point'?

[Gambit21]

Yeah...well there's that guy.

I never watched that video....he's just one of many pilots with those accounts.

 

WWII pilots were not WW buffs or armor experts...I think "Tiger" became a generic name for German tanks to some degree.

Edited April 4, 2018 by Gambit21

[Poochnboo]

Every German tank was a Tiger, the way every Japanese fighter was a Zero. From what I can see, the Tiger wasn't encountered all that often. Panthers and PZKW Mk 4's were more the norm. The Stug, too. I think that it would have been unusual to catch a Tiger on the open road at daytime. The German Army was well aware of how damn slow and heavy the thing was. 

[migmadmarine]

 

There are some very good points in this talk about the value/capabilities of tactical air support against tanks, as well as the whole tiger scare phenomenon.

 

[PatrickAWlson]

17 hours ago, Poochnboo said:

Every German tank was a Tiger, the way every Japanese fighter was a Zero. From what I can see, the Tiger wasn't encountered all that often. Panthers and PZKW Mk 4's were more the norm. The Stug, too. I think that it would have been unusual to catch a Tiger on the open road at daytime. The German Army was well aware of how damn slow and heavy the thing was. 

Tiger I wasn't really slow.  About as fast as a Sherman and probably better off road.  It was expensive, heavy  and unreliable, but when it worked it was really a good tank and not a barely mobile pillbox.  Tiger II was slow as it had more weight and (I believe) the same engine as the Tiger I.

[Poochnboo]

A Tiger faster than a Sherman, and better off road? Pat, could you tell me where you see those facts? You're telling me that at about 75 tons, the Tiger was faster than the Sherman which weighed in at about 30 or so? You're telling me that the Tiger, at that wieght, could go off onto a soft field and operate better than a vehicle that wieghed in at more than half it's weigh? I'm no expert Pat, but the numbers aren't adding up to me.

[Aap]

35 minutes ago, Poochnboo said:

A Tiger faster than a Sherman, and better off road? Pat, could you tell me where you see those facts? You're telling me that at about 75 tons, the Tiger was faster than the Sherman which weighed in at about 30 or so? You're telling me that the Tiger, at that wieght, could go off onto a soft field and operate better than a vehicle that wieghed in at more than half it's weigh? I'm no expert Pat, but the numbers aren't adding up to me.

Looking at Wikipedia, Tiger and Sherman indeed had pretty much the same speed on the road (and Tiger weighted 54 - 57 tons instead of 75). Off road speed is not stated for Sherman, but as the Tiger had a lot wider tracks than Sherman, it would not be very surprising that it did not sink into ground as much, despite weighing more.

[Mitthrawnuruodo]

14 minutes ago, Poochnboo said:

A Tiger faster than a Sherman, and better off road? Pat, could you tell me where you see those facts? You're telling me that at about 75 tons, the Tiger was faster than the Sherman which weighed in at about 30 or so? You're telling me that the Tiger, at that wieght, could go off onto a soft field and operate better than a vehicle that wieghed in at more than half it's weigh? I'm no expert Pat, but the numbers aren't adding up to me.

The speeds were quite similar; both tanks could travel at around 40 km/h in good conditions, with some variation between variants. The large 700 PS engine was an offset against the Tiger's weight. Both vehicles had a power/weight ratio of around 10 kW/tonne. Furthermore, the Tiger achieved a low ground pressure thanks to its wide tracks. This largely negated its weight disadvantage on soft ground.

 

The later Tiger II and Jagdtiger were another story. Increased weights without substantially increased power were concerning. 

 

 

[=362nd_FS=RoflSeal]

4 hours ago, Poochnboo said:

A Tiger faster than a Sherman, and better off road? Pat, could you tell me where you see those facts? You're telling me that at about 75 tons, the Tiger was faster than the Sherman which weighed in at about 30 or so? You're telling me that the Tiger, at that wieght, could go off onto a soft field and operate better than a vehicle that wieghed in at more than half it's weigh? I'm no expert Pat, but the numbers aren't adding up to me.

Yeah, Sherman was a rather poor tank off road due to its high ground pressure, mainly due to its narrow tracks. Tiger has around the same pressure due to much wider tracks, but the nterleaved roadwheels provide a more even distribution of the pressure, higher torque (1850Nm vs 1085Nm with the M4A2 we will be getting), more hp (700hp vs 350hp) and a transmission that allowed more control (double differential vs cletrac)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Tiger II however is about as fast as a valentine

 

 

https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/F07352/

Edited April 5, 2018 by RoflSeal

[Davinsky]

Thank you, Mr. Browning for the M2 HB .50 cal. The best weapon system of all time. I used the M2 extensively during my tours in Iraq, it never let me down.

[[DBS]Browning]

1 hour ago, Davinsky said:

Thank you, Mr. Browning for the M2 HB .50 cal. The best weapon system of all time. I used the M2 extensively during my tours in Iraq, it never let me down.

 

Any time buddy.