Missing pilot armor in german planes?

[KingstonDE]

Hi gents,

 

after i flow a lot on berloga, i recocnised that in german planes i get way more PK`s from a death six shot than in russian planes. No i am not spaming it is thrue. Test it on your own.

I dont talk about a turning or climbing plane, that shows you the cockpit, this is a different story but also there you get more PK`s in german planes as in VVS planes.

I talke about shots from death six position. From my point of view and the test i did, it looks like its more a problem of the german planes than russien ones.

 

On my list for the test with about 50 flights i have 25 PK`s in german planes vs 5 PK`s in russian planes. Something wrong here?  Test done in 109, Fw190, Lagg,Yak and La like this:

 

make an enemy angry , than run as long as you can without any flyingmoves, so he can clearly shot your six. You will get lots of engine damaged, wings off, controlls shot up, fire and

also a lot of PK`s in german planes, not so mutch in russian planes, see above.

 

regards

 

Little_D

 

 

 

 

Edited March 23, 2018 by 1./JG2_Little_D

[Guest deleted@134347]

what's a PK?  I understand it's something very unpleasant.. but what does it stand for?

[KingstonDE]

2 minutes ago, moosya said:

what's a PK?  I understand it's something very unpleasant.. but what does it stand for?

 

Hi moosya,

 

PK = Pilot Kill

 

regards

 

Little_D

[Sunde]

My take on this is that it is first of all very important to realise the difference in armament when comparing these two nations. 
   The dominant cannon for the russians (ShVAK) seems very happy about going through the aircraft / pilot causing all kinds of havoc. 
The german cannons like to explode on impact (maybe a slight delay) but anyhow they do not like to PK like ShVAK does from the 6 of an opponent.
Also the BS machinegun is pretty potent at killing pilots aswell, the german MG's are rather puny, and are better at causing fuel leaks/fires etc. 

Edited March 23, 2018 by EAF_T_Sunde

[Lensman]

You devoted 50 test flights to just getting shot in the back? Amazing! 

[Nightrise]

Well from my experience the G series is much more resistant to PK than f or e series 109s

[FTC_DerSheriff]

The russian weapons rely more on AP ammo, the 109s has only 10mm armor. Thats not a lot. Look up on youtube what bullets can do to armor plates.
The german ammo is mostly HE and don't penetrate the armor and explode on impact. You get pilot kills in german planes if you hit the side/top of the cockpit.

or take the G-6 with the MG131 and pk away.

Edited March 23, 2018 by DerSheriff

[KingstonDE]

24 minutes ago, EAF_T_Sunde said:

My take on this is that it is first of all very important to realise the difference in armament when comparing these two nations. 
   The dominant cannon for the russians (ShVAK) seems very happy about going through the aircraft / pilot causing all kinds of havoc. 
The german cannons like to explode on impact (maybe a slight delay) but anyhow they do not like to PK like ShVAK does from the 6 of an opponent.
Also the BS machinegun is pretty potent at killing pilots aswell, the german MG's are rather puny, and are better at causing fuel leaks/fires etc. 

 

You are right, they are stronger, but this still dont clear the situation,  because when you would count the PK`s on a climbing or turning plane the numbers would stay the same.

You get  a Pilot Kill in climb and turn in german planes also way more than in VVS planes and when you are able to see the engine and the cockpit,  even the not so strong german 7,65mm and 20mm should kill the pilot when you hit multible the cockpit. Or what do you think happens when multible or even 1 20mm Minengeschoss hits the cockpit?

 

I did this test allone, so death six was the only way.

 

18 minutes ago, Lensman said:

You devoted 50 test flights to just getting shot in the back? Amazing! 

 

Yes how other would it be possible to get numbers of PK on different planes at the same ammount of flights for each plane?

 

17 minutes ago, =FEW=nightrise said:

Well from my experience the G series is much more resistant to PK than f or e series 109s

 

Could be thrue as i tested it withG2 and A3 for the FW.

 

 

If i would finde somebody to test it in turn and climb to get better numbers i would be in for a test.

 

regards

 

Little_D

7 minutes ago, DerSheriff said:

The russian weapons rely more on AP ammo, the 109s has only 10mm armor. Thats not a lot. Look up on youtube what bullets can do to armor plates.
The german guns are mostly HE and dont penetrate the armor. You get pilot kills in german planes if you hit the side/top of the cockpit.

Take the G-6 and pk away.

 

Hi, but how you explane it in a climbing or turning plane, where you see the engine and cockpit and aim and hit? Still no way for german  7,65mm or 20mm do kill the pilot?

You know the pic from a spit, that had a 20mm Minengeschoss hit close behind the cockpit?

 Would he got the hit at the cokpitglas he would be death. No cockpit without armor glas can take a 20mm Minengeschoss or an 7,65mm or vvs guns.

 

 

regards

 

Little_D

Edited March 23, 2018 by 1./JG2_Little_D

[FTC_DerSheriff]

12 minutes ago, 1./JG2_Little_D said:

Hi, but how you explane it in a climbing or turning plane, where you see the engine and cockpit and aim and hit? Still no way for german  7,65mm or 20mm do kill the pilot?

You know the pic from a spit, that had a 20mm Minengeschoss hit close behind the cockpit?

 Would he got the hit at the cokpitglas he would be death. No cockpit without armor glas can take a 20mm Minengeschoss or an 7,65mm or vvs guns.

But you get pilot kills in those situations. i got pked by a single 7.62 at times.

[Lensman]

21 minutes ago, 1./JG2_Little_D said:

34 minutes ago, Lensman said:

You devoted 50 test flights to just getting shot in the back? Amazing! 

 

Yes how other would it be possible to get numbers of PK on different planes at the same ammount of flights for each plane?

 

I'm impressed by your dedication and scientific rigour!

 

[KingstonDE]

I know that you also get PK`s in vvs planes, what i am interrested are the numbers, as it happend more often in german planes than in vvs planes.

And as i said i would love to test it with a second man, so we get the numbers to see if it is in all other situatuion for all the same. That vvs can do

more pK`s from death six beacause of the guns is ok, but not the numbers, 25 vs 5, little bit to mutch for my tasted. 25 vs 10/15 i would expect, as

the german guns are also able to penetrate armor at different distances. Dont know the mm a 7,65mm can do.

 

regards

 

Little_D

 

[Finkeren]

34 minutes ago, =FEW=nightrise said:

Well from my experience the G series is much more resistant to PK than f or e series 109s

 

And that's exactly what you'd expect. The G standardized the armored windscreen and introduced the armored glass headrest, which may ppl use instead of removing some of the armor protection to improve field of vision.

[KingstonDE]

2 minutes ago, Lensman said:

 

I'm impressed by your dedication and scientific rigour!

 

 

Thank you, as i tested team fusions guns for 4.321  Cliffs of Dover it took me 3 days and hundrets of flights with some nice other guys for the tests.

If you whant to proof or test something you need lots of flights and a lot of time.

 

regards

 

Little_D

[Nightrise]

Just now, Finkeren said:

 

And that's exactly what you'd expect. The G standardized the armored windscreen and introduced the armored glass headrest, which may ppl use instead of removing some of the armor protection to improve field of vision.

also 20mm Armour plates for the fuel tanks which will also help stop bullets from reaching the pilot. 

[KingstonDE]

2 minutes ago, Finkeren said:

 

And that's exactly what you'd expect. The G standardized the armored windscreen and introduced the armored glass headrest, which may ppl use instead of removing some of the armor protection to improve field of vision.

 

Hi,

what has the rear armor to do with PKs in climb and turn, where you hit the top of the cockpit glas most of the time.

 

regards

 

Little_D

[Finkeren]

A minor point, which might explain at least a bit of this perceived phenomenon: The La-5 and FN can use all-AP ammo for its ShVAKs, which dramatically increases the chance of a pilot kill - I use it myself quite a lot - it is particularly effective against bombers, because killing the pilot and/or gunners is by far the quickest way of stopping a bomber.

[[DBS]Browning]

The real way to test this is on the ground using a bomber turret to shoot at planes so you know for sure where bullets are landing, how many there are and you are using the same gun against the targets. Anything less than this level of rigour is anecdotal speculation, however large the sample size. 

If anyone wants to make the mission file and needs some help executing the tests, I'd be glad to assist.

Edited March 23, 2018 by Browning29th

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

I was amazed to see spidering in the armor glass behind the pilot in the LA5FN the other day.

 

I didn't know if armored glass even worked, as I never got to see it work in the 109.

[Finkeren]

Just now, 1./JG2_Little_D said:

 

Hi,

what has the rear armor to do with PKs in climb and turn, where you hit the top of the cockpit glas most of the time.

 

 

A whole lot in fact. If you notice, the default armored headrest in the 109s curves forward on the upper plate, effectively covering the pilot's head from attacks from a high six, as would happen in a climb or a banking turn. When the player removes the armored headrest, it is precisely this curved plate that's removed, meaning the pilot is still protected from attacks directly from behind, but no longer from above and behind.

 

The armored glass headrest on the Gs is angled forwards, giving pretty much the same protection as the curved plate, but without obstructing the view quite as much.

1 minute ago, hrafnkolbrandr said:

I didn't know if armored glass even worked, as I never got to see it work in the 109.

 

It works, trust me, but I don't think it has visual damage, I've never seen it either.

[KingstonDE]

1 minute ago, Browning29th said:

The real way to test this is on the ground using a bomber turret to shoot at planes so you know for sure where bullets are landing and you are using the same gun against the targets. Anything less than this is utter speculation. 

If anyone wants to make the mission file and needs some help executing the tests, I'd be glad to assist.

Hi

you are also right, this we did a lot in betatesting for team fusion, the problem is, how you want to do it with the big guns?

This i would test with 109 that has empty 7,65mm and with a lagg or Yak with empty 7,65mm, so only the 20mm will hit, than we could see how many

PK`s you get by an 2 second well aimed burst. With Mix of Ap/HE and only AP

 

regards

 

Little_D

[Finkeren]

9 minutes ago, =FEW=nightrise said:

also 20mm Armour plates for the fuel tanks which will also help stop bullets from reaching the pilot. 

 

In theory yes, but from that angle the pilot is already protected by the armored seat.

[KingstonDE]

4 minutes ago, Finkeren said:

 

A whole lot in fact. If you notice, the default armored headrest in the 109s curves forward on the upper plate, effectively covering the pilot's head from attacks from a high six, as would happen in a climb or a banking turn. When the player removes the armored headrest, it is precisely this curved plate that's removed, meaning the pilot is still protected from attacks directly from behind, but no longer from above and behind.

 

The armored glass headrest on the Gs is angled forwards, giving pretty much the same protection as the curved plate, but without obstructing the view quite as much.

 

 

So when i fly the Yak or LA5 i dont see amor like that, so it should mutch easyer to kill the pilot in vvs planes in climb and turn than blue pilots. But this doesent happen.

 

regards

 

Little_D

[[DBS]Browning]

4 minutes ago, 1./JG2_Little_D said:

 the problem is, how you want to do it with the big guns?

 We have bombers with big guns in game.

[KingstonDE]

Hi gents,

 

i finde it nice that you clearing this thing with me, without getting pissed or even spam the threat as it happens on other threads.

 

+ 1

 

regards

 

Little_D

1 minute ago, Browning29th said:

 We have bombers with big guns in game.

 

Bombers with 20mm on german and vvs side?

 

 

[Finkeren]

Just now, 1./JG2_Little_D said:

 

So when i fly the Yak or LA5 i dont see amor like that, so it should mutch easyer to kill the pilot in vvs planes in climb and turn than blue pilots. But this doesent happen.

 

 

Actually you absolutely do see it. In the La-5FN, Yak-1B and P-39 there's a thick glass plate behind the pilot's head. That's armored glass.

 

On all other VVS fighters (except maybe the I-16?) The metal plate that makes up the pilot's headrest is also an armor plate.

[[DBS]Browning]

2 minutes ago, 1./JG2_Little_D said:

Bombers with 20mm on german and vvs side?

 

The He111 can be fitted with 20mm guns. To keep the test fair, we would need to use the same gun every time, so one is enough.
If the damage results show a PK preference for 109s over other planes, we can reasonably assume that this will be true for similar guns.

[KingstonDE]

1 minute ago, Browning29th said:

 

The He111 can be fitted with 20mm guns. To keep the test fair, we would need to use the same gun every time, so one is enough.
If the damage results show a PK preference for 109s over other planes, we can reasonably assume that this will be true for similar guns.

 When you have time

6 minutes ago, Finkeren said:

 

Actually you absolutely do see it. In the La-5FN, Yak-1B and P-39 there's a thick glass plate behind the pilot's head. That's armored glass.

 

On all other VVS fighters (except maybe the I-16?) The metal plate that makes up the pilot's headrest is also an armor plate.

 

But not over the head from the pilot, so it should be possible to kill the pilot in a climb or turn like you can do it with the pilot in 109/190.

even when you fire on a vvs plane that goes vertical into the sky and you cut his climb, so that you shot directly the top of the cockpit

you will get more PK`s in german than in vvs planes and this is false.

[Finkeren]

7 minutes ago, 1./JG2_Little_D said:

 When you have time

 

But not over the head from the pilot, so it should be possible to kill the pilot in a climb or turn like you can do it with the pilot in 109/190.

even when you fire on a vvs plane that goes vertical into the sky and you cut his climb, so that you shot directly the top of the cockpit

you will get more PK`s in german than in vvs planes and this is false.

Yeah, sorry, I misunderstood your comment. VVS planes generally have less protection for the pilot from high six than the Fw 190 and Bf 109 with full headrest.

 

If it can be shown to be consistently true in testing, that pilots in LW planes are more prone to PK from this angle, I'd agree with you that something is off.

[Panthera]

Pick the 15mm  MG151 on the 109F and do the test again, this gun should be one of the best penetrating guns on a fighter present ingame atm, specific capability being 18mm of face hardened armour @ 30 deg / 300 m, not aware of any Russian pilot armour capable of stopping that.

 

 

Edited March 23, 2018 by Panthera

[[DBS]Browning]

ok, I've set up a test mission and done some quick tests.

My sample sizes are not big enough for specific results. I've fired 7.92mm and 20mm from the He11 at the LaGG and F4 both at the rear of the aircraft and the side of the aircraft (aimed at the side panel, not the pilot's head).

I ran each of the tests five times so far.

The 7.92 will not kill the pilot from the rear at all if I'm careful to hit the centre of the plane (or as close as I can get avoiding the rudder). I've emptied a full magazine and more into both planes. I'm reasonably certain that most of the shots where in line with the pilot's body.

From the side, the 7.62 kills the pilots in 3-4 shots every single time.

I did four tests aiming at the pilots head and it still took 3-4 shots to kill the pilot. It is possible that some of the shots released two bullets. It's hard to say for sure.

 

The 20mm killed the pilot in 1-2 shots from the side. Most often one.

 

I did two additional tests hitting the wing with 20mm about 1m from the the wing root. Hitting the wing roots killed the pilot on both planes in 6-8 shots, although the 109's wing fell off well before the pilot died, so I'm not going do any further tests on the wing with 20mm unless anyone really wants me to.

 

I didn't notice much difference between the two planes from these small tests, but I can't rule it out either.

Given that the 7.92 had no effect on the pilots from the rear, I suspect that the size of the armour plates that the game models must play a big role in how easy it is to PK.

 

Edit:

OK, I've completed 48 tests now under stricter conditions and the results got quickly predictable.

The 7.62 never kills F4 or LaGG pilots from the rear. From the side it almost always kills in exactly 3 shots (in 4 tests it took 4 hits. Might be down to bullet scatter).

The 20mm kills from both the rear and the side in exactly one shot from the rear or the side.

I will now try to set it up so I am shooting through the whole fuselage, rather than at the high-six position that landed planes present.

Edited March 23, 2018 by Browning29th

[Bilbo_Baggins]

32 minutes ago, Browning29th said:

ok, I've set up a test mission and done some quick tests.

My sample sizes are not big enough for specific results. I've fired 7.92mm and 20mm from the He11 at the LaGG and F4 both at the rear of the aircraft and the side of the aircraft (aimed at the side panel, not the pilot's head).

I ran each of the tests five times so far.

The 7.92 will not kill the pilot from the rear at all if I'm careful to hit the centre of the plane (or as close as I can get avoiding the rudder). I've emptied a full magazine and more into both planes. I'm reasonably certain that most of the shots where in line with the pilot's body.

From the side, the 7.62 kills the pilots in 3-4 shots every single time.

I did four tests aiming at the pilots head and it still took 3-4 shots to kill the pilot. It is possible that some of the shots released two bullets. It's hard to say for sure.

 

The 20mm killed the pilot in 1-2 shots from the side. Most often one.

 

From the rear the results varied a lot. It always took more than one 20mm shot and sometimes upwards of eight. I'll provide more info when I get more data.

 

I did two additional tests hitting the wing with 20mm about 1m from the the wing root. Hitting the wing roots killed the pilot on both planes in 6-8 shots, although the 109's wing fell off well before the pilot died, so I'm not going do any further tests on the wing with 20mm unless anyone really wants me to.

 

I didn't notice much difference between the two planes from these small tests, but I can't rule it out either.

Given that the 7.92 had no effect on the pilots from the rear, I suspect that the size of the armour plates that the game models must play a big role in how easy it is to PK.

 

Interesting tests. Looks like what many have suspected for some time now- that it's not the blue damage models that are at fault, but VVS ammo with propensity to cause far more pilot kills. Also coincides with the infamous whole tail sections and wings coming off from BF109s from just single hits.

 

When you fly VVS it's almost never that you are taken out with an instant PK from the first rounds of a quick burst of a German plane, yet blue planes seem to put a whole barrage into a red plane to get the pilot. Noticed this very soon after getting familiar flying German. 

Edited March 23, 2018 by Mcdaddy

[216th_Jordan]

Also, when an enemy is behind you:

Dont look into the enemies guns or towards the enemy in general when you are being shot at. Your head position is tracked and if it is in the bullets way you die, number one cause of my deaths in Mig-3s until I discovered this was a thing. Now I duck down when under fire and survive a lot more shots. Of course if the ammo is strong enough to pass through the rear pilot armor there is little to do..

Edited March 23, 2018 by 216th_Jordan

[[DBS]Browning]

28 minutes ago, Mcdaddy said:

Looks like what many have suspected for some time now- that it's not the blue damage models that are at fault, but VVS ammo with propensity to cause far more pilot kills.

 

My data neither supports nor refutes that.

I will repeat the tests with Russian guns soon.

 

Edit:

Tests done.

The Russian 12,7mm kills from the rear in one shot. The Russian 7.62 never kills from the rear.

 

Having now tested 4 different guns against the F4 and LaGG, I'm confident that my tests have shown no difference in the penetrability of the armour from the side or the high-six position for the F4 and LaGG.

If there are armour differences, they lie largely in the size of the armour and not the strength. That's not something I can think of a good way to test.

 

Tests could be improved by testing armour penetration at an angle, but I don't think it's worth it.

 

Given that the F4 has only one cannon that can penetrate LaGG armour from the rear, but the LaGG has one cannon and two MGs that can penetrate the F4 from the rear, it's no surprise that the LaGG gets more PKs due to it's weapons (and not the armour).

Edited March 23, 2018 by Browning29th

[KingstonDE]

1 hour ago, Browning29th said:

 

My data neither supports nor refutes that.

I will repeat the tests with Russian guns soon.

 

Edit:

Tests done.

The Russian 12,7mm kills from the rear in one shot. The Russian 7.62 never kills from the rear.

 

Having now tested 4 different guns against the F4 and LaGG, I'm confident that my tests have shown no difference in the penetrability of the armour from the side or the high-six position for the F4 and LaGG.

If there are armour differences, they lie largely in the size of the armour and not the strength. That's not something I can think of a good way to test.

 

Tests could be improved by testing armour penetration at an angle, but I don't think it's worth it.

 

Given that the F4 has only one cannon that can penetrate LaGG armour from the rear, but the LaGG has one cannon and two MGs that can penetrate the F4 from the rear, it's no surprise that the LaGG gets more PKs due to it's weapons (and not the armour).

1 hour ago, 216th_Jordan said:

Also, when an enemy is behind you:

Dont look into the enemies guns or towards the enemy in general when you are being shot at. Your head position is tracked and if it is in the bullets way you die, number one cause of my deaths in Mig-3s until I discovered this was a thing. Now I duck down when under fire and survive a lot more shots. Of course if the ammo is strong enough to pass through the rear pilot armor there is little to do..

 

@Browning29th:

Hi, nice test you have done. But we cant test this with your test i think:

when you fire on a vvs plane that goes vertical into the sky and you cut his climb, so that you shot directly the top of the cockpitglas you will get more PK`s in german than in vvs planes. And even the german 7.65mm should penetrade the top cockpitglas.

 

So maby we could do this test online, only with 20mm guns, where one plane is in a steep climb and the other aim for cockpit and open fire. Would be nice to see what happens than. Some other thing, my last flight on Berloga today i get a verry nice shot from a 109 (no G-6) directly into the top cockpitglas right into my face as i was looking at him and got wounded in my LA5. The same situation in 109/FW leads to massive PK`s.

 

@216th_Jordan

could be something,  but even when you dont look at the enemy guns, some fu... hit`s into the top cockpitglas should kill the pilot. Situation see above.

But this dont happens in vvs planes, etlast not so often than it should, when we see how many PK`s you get in the same situation in german planes.

 

regards

 

Little_D

 

 

Edited March 23, 2018 by 1./JG2_Little_D

[Dakpilot]

The 20mm rear armour on 109 was mentioned (behind the 'toilet seat' fuel tank) I am fairly sure that this was made of 27 thin sheets of normal duralumin not steel

 

This type of armour was mainly intended reduce the effect of incendiary bullets and protect from light shrapnel and not effective as what would be considered a normal armour plate

 

If the upper part of the (soft)  fuel tank is empty I would expect less protection from direct 6 hits than other designs, or at least this 20mm rear amour to have little effect on even normal rifle calibre bullets

 

Am sure I recall reading that it was not possible to fit conventional steel armour due to lack of attachment points due to lightweight nature of fuselage design in this area

 

as far as I know this type of aluminium armour plate was not used in any other design and interestingly it was not much lighter than conventional steel armour of similar qualities being 31kg

 

just a thought

 

Cheers, Dakpilot

[BeastyBaiter]

As others have mentioned, look at the level of armor provided and the guns being used. I absolutely agree that it's easier to PK an axis plane than an allied one, but that really comes down to the guns. With the exception of the Bf-109G6 and MC.202, the axis have a pair of 7..62mm peashooters and a 20mm cannon with nothing but flavors of HE rounds. Of the two, the 7.62mm is better for killing pilots from dead six and obviously, it isn't very good at it.

 

If we compare that to an allied plane with a comparable gun, such as the I-16 with default armament (4x 7.62's), then you'll get the same effect. PKing a 109 or 190 from behind is pretty much impossible. But if you swap that I-16 for a MiG-3 with 2x 12.7mm's, an La or Yak with their 20mm's shooting AP rounds, you'll get a very different result. Similarly, if you hop in the Bf-109G6 or MC.202 with their 13mm and 12.7mm guns respectively, once again, PK's from dead six become a very real option.

[[DBS]Browning]

9 hours ago, 1./JG2_Little_D said:

 

@Browning29th:

Hi, nice test you have done. But we cant test this with your test i think:

when you fire on a vvs plane that goes vertical into the sky and you cut his climb, so that you shot directly the top of the cockpitglas you will get more PK`s in german than in vvs planes. And even the german 7.65mm should penetrade the top cockpitglas.

 

So maby we could do this test online, only with 20mm guns, where one plane is in a steep climb and the other aim for cockpit and open fire. Would be nice to see what happens than.

 

That would be a horribly uncontrolled way to test anything. Too many uncontrollable variables to get meaningful results.

In all of my tests the 7.65mm killed the pilot in exactly 3 hits through both the side of the plane and through the glass of the side and the high-six of the cockpit. 20mm and 12.7mm killed in one hit every time from those positions. It is certainly the same from all angles of the glass, but I can test this in a more rigorous way if you insist.

 

Lets do some math!

 

The F4 has:

1 x 20 mm @ 650RPM

2 x 7.92 mm @ 1200RPM

How likely is it that a one second burst will kill a pilot?

In one second 11 rounds of 20mm go down range and 40 rounds of 7.92, but it takes 3 hits with the 7.92. Lets assume that half of the rounds hit the armor plate. That will have no effect on the 20mm, but will block half of the 7.92mm rounds. That gives the F4 17 chances to get a PK in a second burst.

 

Now the LaGG. It has:

1x 12.7mm @800RPM

1x 20mm @800RPM

In one second, 13 rounds of each go downrange. Even assuming that half of the rounds hit the armor plate, that will not change the result as the armor does not stop these rounds PKing. So, that's 26 chances to PK in a seconds burst.

 

Looking at that it is no surprise at all that the 109 pilot would be PK'd more, even with the same armor. In actual conditions, I suspect far more than half of all rounds that would normally hit the pilot, hit the armor instead and getting 3 pilot hits with the 7.92 is harder than getting one hit with the 12.7mm. The differances these weapons have is likely even more pronounced in IL2 than these numbers would suggest.

 

Edited March 24, 2018 by Browning29th

[Blackhawk_FR]

15 hours ago, 216th_Jordan said:

Dont look into the enemies guns or towards the enemy in general when you are being shot at. Your head position is tracked and if it is in the bullets way you die, number one cause of my deaths in Mig-3s until I discovered this was a thing. Now I duck down when under fire and survive a lot more shots.

 

Interesting. Are you like completely sure about that? Does anyone else confirm?

 

Question about 109 pilot's armor: which one give the best protection? Default or glass?

Edited March 24, 2018 by F/JG300_Faucon

[Panthera]

5 hours ago, Dakpilot said:

The 20mm rear armour on 109 was mentioned (behind the 'toilet seat' fuel tank) I am fairly sure that this was made of 27 thin sheets of normal duralumin not steel

 

This type of armour was mainly intended reduce the effect of incendiary bullets and protect from light shrapnel and not effective as what would be considered a normal armour plate

 

If the upper part of the (soft)  fuel tank is empty I would expect less protection from direct 6 hits than other designs, or at least this 20mm rear amour to have little effect on even normal rifle calibre bullets

 

Am sure I recall reading that it was not possible to fit conventional steel armour due to lack of attachment points due to lightweight nature of fuselage design in this area

 

as far as I know this type of aluminium armour plate was not used in any other design and interestingly it was not much lighter than conventional steel armour of similar qualities being 31kg

 

just a thought

 

Cheers, Dakpilot

 

Besides the duralumin plate the 109 also feature a hardened steel back & head rest for the pilot refered to as the "Kopfschutz & Rückenschutzplatten"

 

 

 

 

a = 10 mm FH steel  b = 8mm FH steel   C = 22 mm duralumin sandwich

 

The 22mm duralumin plate provided protection equivalent to a 8mm FH steel plate. So in the area covered by the bulkhead & backrest the pilot would have  protection  equal to 16mm of armour , and much more if the rear tank was full.

 

As for its effectiveness, there is this report:

 

Edited March 24, 2018 by Panthera

[KingstonDE]

5 hours ago, BeastyBaiter said:

As others have mentioned, look at the level of armor provided and the guns being used. I absolutely agree that it's easier to PK an axis plane than an allied one, but that really comes down to the guns. With the exception of the Bf-109G6 and MC.202, the axis have a pair of 7..62mm peashooters and a 20mm cannon with nothing but flavors of HE rounds. Of the two, the 7.62mm is better for killing pilots from dead six and obviously, it isn't very good at it.

 

If we compare that to an allied plane with a comparable gun, such as the I-16 with default armament (4x 7.62's), then you'll get the same effect. PKing a 109 or 190 from behind is pretty much impossible. But if you swap that I-16 for a MiG-3 with 2x 12.7mm's, an La or Yak with their 20mm's shooting AP rounds, you'll get a very different result. Similarly, if you hop in the Bf-109G6 or MC.202 with their 13mm and 12.7mm guns respectively, once again, PK's from dead six become a very real option.

 

As for the shots from the 6 a clock i can live with it as it comes down to the guns,  but what is with this situation: when you fire on a vvs plane that goes vertical into the sky and you cut his climb, so that you shot directly the top of the cockpitglas you will get more PK`s in german than in vvs planes. Where no armor is in the way off the bullets? Only the normal top cockpitglass. Even in a turn or in a other manovers, where you show the enemy your top ckocpitglass you have this problem and this has nothing to to with the guns.

 

Need to do more tests this time i will let kill me in a climb and will count again the PK`s.

 

@Browning29th

 

Did you do the test off or online? Because online is every time a different story to offline.

 

Regards

 

Little_D

 

Edited March 24, 2018 by 1./JG2_Little_D