Multiplayer news

[OBT-Psycho]

or the fact than most panel lines on the wing were filled to get maximum peformances.

 

to me it seems neat picking, as you will only gain a few kph out of this kind of feature, but as you and he said, if your life is on the line, you want to be the guy that cme back home. always better to pay a drink to the ground crew because they spent a few more hours on your aircraft for some dubious reasons than letting them dink in your memory

Edited January 7, 2014 by OBT-Psychopoak

[VBF-12_Snake9]

I fight the enemy, I do not want to fight my plane and my enemy.  It's not hard to do more than one thing during a dogfight. . . .

 

Ohh, I really like this quote,  At first it was awkward. But, with experience, it was something you did without thinking, like driving a car and twirling the radio dial."
 

[Skoshi_Tiger]

I fight the enemy, I do not want to fight my plane and my enemy.  It's not hard to do more than one thing during a dogfight. . . .

 

Ohh, I really like this quote,  At first it was awkward. But, with experience, it was something you did without thinking, like driving a car and twirling the radio dial."

 

+1

When I did my PPL (many moons ago), trimming was something you learned to do automatically. If you didn't trim your aircraft correctly the instructor lectured you on poor airmanship. 

 

I really doubt I'll be flying a LaGG online in multiplayer until the issue is resolved. In real life I expect the planes would have been grounded as they are.

[FuriousMeow]

There are aircraft in WWII without trim, like the 109 and 190. Yes I'm aware of the 109's horizontal stabilizer that could be moved, but the actual trim tabs were set on the ground for a particular cruising speed. So they would be all out of trim at higher speeds, which wouldn't keep them grounded and there's nothing to trim either so they couldn't adjust them in combat.

 

This trim thing is being blown out of proportion, especially when quite a few aircraft don't have any trim and when we get those it'll be "fighting the airplane" just as much as "fighting the enemy."

[Sternjaeger]

I fight the enemy, I do not want to fight my plane and my enemy.  It's not hard to do more than one thing during a dogfight. . . .

 

Ohh, I really like this quote,  At first it was awkward. But, with experience, it was something you did without thinking, like driving a car and twirling the radio dial."

 

 

well what can I say. Truth is that trimming is not necessary for combat.

 

+1

When I did my PPL (many moons ago), trimming was something you learned to do automatically. If you didn't trim your aircraft correctly the instructor lectured you on poor airmanship. 

 

I really doubt I'll be flying a LaGG online in multiplayer until the issue is resolved. In real life I expect the planes would have been grounded as they are.

 

I suppose you did your PPL on a 172? Trimming is an important part of modern flying discipline, but in combat it's not that necessary, you want to keep your hands on your throttle and stick.

[Skoshi_Tiger]

Well the Mustang was the ultimate high performance aircraft that had trim settings for takeoff, cruise, landing etc... but the "combat setting" was very much a personal preference thing: I have met Col. Anderson who confirmed this, and Col. Pisanos also told me that it was a personal thing, and several pilots believed that you could really squeeze that extra bit of performance that would make a difference.

 

US pilots were obsessed with performance: the paint stripping, buffing, modifications and all sorts of big or small customisations done to the aircraft are a testimony of this. For example I can show you at least a dozen picture of US aircraft that removed the standard issue N-3 gunsight in favour of the RAF issue one because of slight aberration issues with the standard ones, which allegedly made them "less accurate" when shooting.

 

 

well what can I say. Truth is that trimming is not necessary for combat.

 

 

I suppose you did your PPL on a 172? Trimming is an important part of modern flying discipline, but in combat it's not that necessary, you want to keep your hands on your throttle and stick.

 

 

You laughed? Why? I only use trim when cruising, trim is not that relevant in dogfighting, there are far more important things to take into account when dogfighting than trimming..

 

Stern your bouncing around here. Just because you don't adjust your trim in combat just means you leave it in the position it was in before you engaged in combat, which I would assume would be your cruise setting. Like your quote from the famous aces above says is personal preference. That doesn't make trim irrelevant.

 

If you were bounced when your aircraft was trimmed for a sustained maximum rate climb, would you leave it in that position for the duration of the combat? I know I wouldn't. That what flying the LaGG is like now. Trim is important and the developers are working towards implementing it in February some time.  It's all good.

 

My flying experience is limited to Cessna 152 and Piper PA-38 (shows my vintage ) but in all honesty I cannot believe that trim would be any less important in an aircraft that weighs 3-4 times as much and has 10 times the power available in an airframe that was designed 30 years before.

 

Stern, you do aerobatics, Would you start a routine in a out of trim aircraft?

[FuriousMeow]

 but in all honesty I cannot believe that trim would be any less important in an aircraft that weighs 3-4 times as much and has 10 times the power available in an airframe that was designed 30 years before.

 

 

Probably because there are aircraft with those same specifications that had no trim what-so-ever in the same time period. They didn't auto-trim either, so what's the reasoning there?

 

Trim is a secondary control at best, and when it's absent it clearly doesn't hinder the aircraft's ability to fly or the pilot's ability to pilot.

Edited January 8, 2014 by FuriousMeow

[Skoshi_Tiger]

Probably because there are aircraft with those same specifications that had no trim what-so-ever in the same time period. They didn't auto-trim either, so what's the reasoning there?

 

Trim is a secondary control at best, and when it's absent it clearly doesn't hinder the aircraft's ability to fly or the pilot's ability to pilot.

 

Which aircraft are these (lets limit this to a WWII context)? Are you talking about successful designs or ones that had or were about to become obsolete?  I would assume at the very least a rigger would be able to adjust the trim on the ground, like the 109 Rudder trim or the Spitfire elevator? In any case I assume there would be completely different flight envelope and purpose for such aircraft.

 

Although trim is called a secondary control, this is only to differentiate it from the Primary Controls - Elevator, Aileron, Rudder. It is no less important in an aircraft designed to operate with one. In fact in the rare event that the trim control became defective in flight it would constitute an emergency and you would be radioing in you PAN call and aborting the flight. If anything I believe it would have been more important in the WWII designs that we have simulated here.

 

Anyway time for me to rig up a shade sail over the pool. Too much UV around for my kids and their sensitive skin!

[79_vRAF_Friendly_flyer]

Although trim is called a secondary control, this is only to differentiate it from the Primary Controls - Elevator, Aileron, Rudder. It is no less important in an aircraft designed to operate with one.

 

In normal flight, trim is very handy, and on long escort missions like those the Mustang excelled in, I'd say it was vital. When doing combat in a fighter on the other hand, the trim should be put in a suitable position and left there (neutral was customary combat setting on British fighters), you normally do not have time to fiddle with the trimming wheel with tracers streaming past your hood! In any normal situation a pilot would spend a lot of time flying from A to B, and a very short time throwing the machine around the sky. In a combat sim like this, the reverse is very often true. I think the lack of emphasis on trim reflects this.

[Sternjaeger]

Stern your bouncing around here. Just because you don't adjust your trim in combat just means you leave it in the position it was in before you engaged in combat, which I would assume would be your cruise setting. Like your quote from the famous aces above says is personal preference. That doesn't make trim irrelevant.

 

If you were bounced when your aircraft was trimmed for a sustained maximum rate climb, would you leave it in that position for the duration of the combat? I know I wouldn't. That what flying the LaGG is like now. Trim is important and the developers are working towards implementing it in February some time.  It's all good.

 

My flying experience is limited to Cessna 152 and Piper PA-38 (shows my vintage ) but in all honesty I cannot believe that trim would be any less important in an aircraft that weighs 3-4 times as much and has 10 times the power available in an airframe that was designed 30 years before.

 

Stern, you do aerobatics, Would you start a routine in a out of trim aircraft?

 

no, all I'm saying is that trims do not have the importance that some people want to give them, and they're surely not meant to enhance your dogfighting skills.

 

A trim tab is meant to help you counteract forces that compromise your flight stability at a fixed configuration, or to ease the control input on some specific times: for example, you are recommended to use 5 (or 6) degrees rudder trim on the Mustang for takeoff, but you can still take off with neutral trim, it will just need more pedal.

 

The risk with trim settings during dogfights is that during a dogfight you go through a wide flight envelope, and you can easily risk going beyond the trim limitations, with potentially catastrophic results (I suppose you all remember what happened to "The Galloping Ghost" at Reno in 2011).

 

The limitations of the early IL-2 meant that excessive trim input wouldn't cause any dangerous response or failure, so inevitably people started experimenting and this fuelled the belief that you can have the edge over the enemy by fiddling with the trim during combat.. truth is that it doesn't: a dogfight is an adaptive scenario, where parameters vary so fast and so often that you don't really have time to fiddle with a secondary control, unless you really want to. Anderson did fiddle with his trim, many others didn't, truth is it doesn't make you any better or give you that extra edge you need, again it was more of an obsession to look for the "magic secret trick" that others didn't have. 

 

And for the record, I do set my trim tabs to neutral before aerobatics.

Edited January 8, 2014 by Sternjaeger

[JG1_Pragr]

S!

 

 MP usually tends to boild down to a furball of hell over a certain map grid even there are mission objectives to fulfill. I burned out on MP some years ago, doing it for over 10 years straight every single day almost just took it's toll. Started from EAW and Jane's WW2 Fighters, moved to Aces High and IL-2 series. CloD briefly. In CloD I did Jabo runs as fighting was not my cup of tea. Sneaking in and out gave far more thrill than trying to spot those planes which then disappeared closer in. If going MP I am all for COOP missions, maybe occasional furballing for the giggles. But no more dedicated MP for me. 

That's why I think we need a good MP builder. If there would be a chance to join several MP missions into online "campaign" where one mission would has an impact on the next. And allow this through some tools within the game itself would be really great.

[URUAker]

I still play SEOW missions...

 

Which reminds me, must sign up for the currant channel dash campaign.

 

Is there any SEOW campaign running in the US east coast early night? In Uruguay we are in GMT -3 so we used to fly with the north american squads 

[=RvE=Windmills]

no, all I'm saying is that trims do not have the importance that some people want to give them, and they're surely not meant to enhance your dogfighting skills.

 

They do though.

 

What you seem to be missing is that some pilots can work trim management into their flight routine along with regular throttle and stick operation. Anderson makes it clear that this was the case for him, it didn't distract him at all. DFs don't normally take place at a single airspeed, expecting optimal results by keeping your trim in a fixed position regardless of doing 200kph or 500kph during a DF doesn't make sense.

 

But it's interesting you think Anderson was wasting his time trying to trim his aircraft during fights.

[t4trouble]

And for the record, I do set my trim tabs to neutral before aerobatics.

...and if you were fighting for you're life you wouldn't adjust the trim if the a/c had it ?

 

Edited January 8, 2014 by Rama

[=38=Tatarenko]

quite so

[FuriousMeow]

Which aircraft are these (lets limit this to a WWII context)? Are you talking about successful designs or ones that had or were about to become obsolete?

 

I-16 (served until 1944!), I-15, I-153, Po-2, Gloster Gladiator to name a few. They were all WWII aircraft.

 

The 109, 190 and Spitfire could only set trim on the ground so again - you couldn't set it in combat, and they would be out of trim at speeds other than the operational speed the trim was set for.

 

You're really grapsing at it here trying to make some kind of point. Trim is used to level your plane out at a particular speed, there are far less comments of pilots using trim in combat than there are of pilots not touching trim in combat. Trim isn't going to magically make your plane turn better or roll faster, it's there to maintain level flight with minimal stick and rudder.

Edited January 8, 2014 by FuriousMeow

[=38=Tatarenko]

Just because I'm a picky git, the I-16 was actually in use until 1945 in the Far East. 888 IAP if I recall correctly.

[Sternjaeger]

They do though.

 

What you seem to be missing is that some pilots can work trim management into their flight routine along with regular throttle and stick operation. Anderson makes it clear that this was the case for him, it didn't distract him at all. DFs don't normally take place at a single airspeed, expecting optimal results by keeping your trim in a fixed position regardless of doing 200kph or 500kph during a DF doesn't make sense.

 

But it's interesting you think Anderson was wasting his time trying to trim his aircraft during fights.

 

no, they don't improve your skills, they reduce the strength to apply to your controls, which is not a concern in a simulator, since you don't have to physically fight against harder controls to fly your aircraft around.

 

A trim is meant to make your life easier in certain scenarios, the way it was represented in IL-2 meant that it could be used as a cheat, and that's what some people have been doing, expecting the things to be the same now.

 

Anderson's personal experience is not the ultimate word on the matter, I have met and know P-51 pilots (both vets and modern pilots) who use the trim just for takeoff and landing, or when they're cruising, but leave the trims on neutral for aerobatic routines. 

 

Having said that, I don't think Anderson was wasting his time trimming the aircraft, he was just easing the physical work on his controls by (more or less) constantly adjusting his trim settings, but it was a lot of work, which makes you wonder whether it was in fact worth it. This is what I mean when I say "personal obsession".

 

...and if you were fighting for you're life you wouldn't adjust the trim if the a/c had it ?

 

no, I wouldn't because that's not what the trim is meant for, and if you don't understand this it means you don't understand the purpose of trims in real flying. 

 

[=RvE=Windmills]

no, they don't improve your skills, they reduce the strength to apply to your controls, which is not a concern in a simulator, since you don't have to physically fight against harder controls to fly your aircraft around.

 

Well skill was obviously the wrong word, but I assumed you basically meant improving effectiveness/flying accuracy/proficiency etc.

 

How is this not a concern in a simulator though? What you ideally want is that when the stick is neutral, your plane keeps flying perfectly straight. Any deviation from this means being forced to compensate constantly to find the new 'neutral' point and work your movements around that. I also find it physically uncomfortable to compensate manually for a trim that is completely out of wack.

 

 

 

A trim is meant to make your life easier in certain scenarios, the way it was represented in IL-2 meant that it could be used as a cheat, and that's what some people have been doing, expecting the things to be the same now.

 

What part of it do you define as a cheat exactly?

 

 

 

Anderson's personal experience is not the ultimate word on the matter, I have met and know P-51 pilots (both vets and modern pilots) who use the trim just for takeoff and landing, or when they're cruising, but leave the trims on neutral for aerobatic routines.

 

And I know sim pilots who do not adjust trim during combat, and I know those who do (including myself). I don't think anyone brought up Anderson's experience to suggest every single pilot did it, but that there were in fact pilots who benefitted from it.

[Freycinet]

If you have time to fiddle with trim during dogfighting your enemy isn't presenting much of a challenge!

[BraveSirRobin]

It probably depends on what type of fight it is.  If you're booming and zooming you probably have time to adjust trim.  If you're weaving between the trees (or through the trees in CoD...) you probably don't.

[=RvE=Windmills]

If you have time to fiddle with trim during dogfighting your enemy isn't presenting much of a challenge!

 

If you feel like you don't need optimal performance and the highest accuracy inputs, your enemy probably isn't either.

[FuriousMeow]

What part of it do you define as a cheat exactly?

 

 

 

Really? You don't know why the Il-2 series trim is a cheat? It's not trim, it's full control surface deflection which allows the control surface to go beyond the limits of the stick's movement.

[Zettman]

I think trim becomes intresting for dogfights, if you are using high values for nonlinearity for your stick. If you are forced to move the stick out of the center you will become quite inacurate because of the high values. But if you are flying with a linear stick, it doesn't really matter, cause you won't lose accuracy. (Atleast that is what I learned in my limited flightsim career in WT)

 

Zettman

Edited January 8, 2014 by Zettman

[Rama]

If you feel like you don't need optimal performance and the highest accuracy inputs, your enemy probably isn't either.

The problem to optimaly trim a plane during aerial fight is the incompatibility with the high workload.

During transition flight, you have plenty of time to perfectly trim your plane (and usually it's not done instantaneously, the perfection needs some iterations).

 

During dogfight the workload will be much higher, you will have to watch the your ennemy target, watch the sky for your teammates and other ennemies, be carefull about your engine to get the best of it (including eventually changing supercharger stage), radioing to your teamates for coordination, and trying to find a good shot... that's a lot to do in a small amount of time.

So in this cas, spending a few second to trim may be counter-productive. Suppose you start with a dive escape... and you trim your plane for a dive.... suppose an ennemy is still following you. You will have to change your attitude, shake your plane to get the ennemy out of your tail, call for help, etc.... you probably will forget to trim your plane back to neutral (not even thinking to trim it for each "shake")... which means you will need more strenght than necessary each time you will pull the stick.... and getting exhausted sooner than if your plane was neutral trimmer... that could be fatal...

 

So except if your a cool-blood super master, never in bad position, allways mastering your machine without any pressure (in case of you may have some workload left for trimming), trim isn't for dogfight, and could even make it worse than necessary.

[Sternjaeger]

Well skill was obviously the wrong word, but I assumed you basically meant improving effectiveness/flying accuracy/proficiency etc.

 

How is this not a concern in a simulator though? What you ideally want is that when the stick is neutral, your plane keeps flying perfectly straight. Any deviation from this means being forced to compensate constantly to find the new 'neutral' point and work your movements around that. I also find it physically uncomfortable to compensate manually for a trim that is completely out of wack.

I think the confusion here is on the double nature of trim tabs: trim tabs do primarily two jobs, let's look at them separately.

 

1)trim tabs they allow you to compensate for any torque or any other force preventing you to have a coordinated, straight flight, they do this by slightly moving the surface for you, so if you look at your stick in neutral position, it's like they're holding the stick for you. This is particular useful for your elevators, because you can easily set your trim without having to hang too hard on the stick, so your climb, cruise or descent can be helped.

 

2)trim tabs reduce the pressure you need to apply to controls to do things: for instance, if you're chasing someone in a high speed turn, a properly set trim would allow you to pull with less strength whilst still achieving the desired turn, but would also increase the response and sensitivity accordingly. It's a mechanical relief that allows the pilot to manage harder controls easily, if you apply a stretch of imagination to it, it's like servo-steering.

 

What part of it do you define as a cheat exactly?

 

and that's where the cheat element comes into play: you don't need extra physical strength to apply to your control when flying a simulator, because your control doesn't get harder like in real life, what happens instead is that because of this oversight in the sim development, you can go beyond the control's limit, which in real life could lead to this (because you overload the surface)

 

 

with obvious catastrophic consequences, whereas in most sims you just obtain an "extended" elevator control, allowing you to just turn tighter.

 

Going back to the servo-steering, think of the early models, where there was no progressive response: the increased sensitivity on the steering at all speeds could easily cause you to flip your car if you applied the normal strength to your steering, whereas in a hypothetical sim version you would have only managed to turn your corner tighter. 

Edited January 8, 2014 by Sternjaeger

[=RvE=Windmills]

The problem to optimaly trim a plane during aerial fight is the incompatibility with the high workload.

During transition flight, you have plenty of time to perfectly trim your plane (and usually it's not done instantaneously, the perfection needs some iterations).

 

During dogfight the workload will be much higher, you will have to watch the your ennemy target, watch the sky for your teammates and other ennemies, be carefull about your engine to get the best of it (including eventually changing supercharger stage), radioing to your teamates for coordination, and trying to find a good shot... that's a lot to do in a small amount of time.

So in this cas, spending a few second to trim may be counter-productive. Suppose you start with a dive escape... and you trim your plane for a dive.... suppose an ennemy is still following you. You will have to change your attitude, shake your plane to get the ennemy out of your tail, call for help, etc.... you probably will forget to trim your plane back to neutral (not even thinking to trim it for each "shake")... which means you will need more strenght than necessary each time you will pull the stick.... and getting exhausted sooner than if your plane was neutral trimmer... that could be fatal...

 

So except if your a cool-blood super master, never in bad position, allways mastering your machine without any pressure (in case of you may have some workload left for trimming), trim isn't for dogfight, and could even make it worse than necessary.

 

I have my thumb constantly on a rotary adjusting elevator trim during manoeuvres, I don't need to spend time thinking about adjusting it anymore then I spend time thinking on how to move the stick in order to make the plane do what I want.

 

Trimming with a rotary gives you much finer control inputs then are generally possible with a stick. If you're on the edge of a stall you can very finely tighten up your turn a bit more with trim, when a stick movement could be to drastic and result in a stall.

 

 

 

Really? You don't know why the Il-2 series trim is a cheat? It's not trim, it's full control surface deflection which allows the control surface to go beyond the limits of the stick's movement.

 

I don't see how useful this would be though, at slow speeds extreme input would send you into a spin, at high speeds this would twist the airframe or even snap a wing off in Il2. I know it's historically incorrect, but I wouldn't go as far as saying it would give you a huge advantage in the current versions. Maybe in older versions where it was nearly impossible to damage your airframe with Gs.

[Sternjaeger]

I have my thumb constantly on a rotary adjusting elevator trim during manoeuvres, I don't need to spend time thinking about adjusting it anymore then I spend time thinking on how to move the stick in order to make the plane do what I want.

 

Trimming with a rotary gives you much finer control inputs then are generally possible with a stick. If you're on the edge of a stall you can very finely tighten up your turn a bit more with trim, when a stick movement could be to drastic and result in a stall.

call me a simulation taliban, but to me that's already a cheat: they surely didn't have thumb control for their trims in WW2.. 

 

I don't see how useful this would be though, at slow speeds extreme input would send you into a spin, at high speeds this would twist the airframe or even snap a wing off in Il2. I know it's historically incorrect, but I wouldn't go as far as saying it would give you a huge advantage in the current versions. Maybe in older versions where it was nearly impossible to damage your airframe with Gs.

you said it yourself: it's really easy to fiddle with trims once you assign the right thumb control to it..

[Rama]

I have my thumb constantly on a rotary adjusting elevator trim during manoeuvres, I don't need to spend time thinking about adjusting it anymore then I spend time thinking on how to move the stick in order to make the plane do what I want.

Was talking about real fighter pilots in real warplanes... not about simmers.

Workload and stress of a simmer isn't an issue, neither the fight outcome.... "just a game".

If you want to game the trim, I can understand.

[=RvE=Windmills]

Well, I was making the point that you can get an advantage from trim during dogfighting ingame.

 

This was all in response to the suggestion that lack of trim wouldn't be a disadvantage.

[Brano]

 From my experience in old sturmovik I always used to trim  (if possible) for ''cruise speed'' .Depending on a/c (350-500km/h). That was usualy also speed when entering into fight/ground attack.And that was important,to have your planed trimmed well to have better aim possibility for FIRST shot which always counts as decisive.Either you take enemy by surprise with well aimed shot,or you miss (cause you have to fiddle with stick) and you have to fight in turns.Then,of course,trim becomes less important as you do not have so much time to play with it.But it doesnt mean you can not.And sometimes it can even save your life.I remember Sasha Pokryshkin story when he used his MiG3 elevator trim to get his plane leveled from steep dive in combat (because of damaged elevator itself).And he did land the plane thanks to trim.

 LaGG,as it is now,is (maybe factory) trimmed to ~200km/h.Useless for air combat or ground attack.That is why I will most probably not enjoy early access until that is sorted out.Only if IL2 comes out sooner

[FuriousMeow]

I've had no problems with the LaGG in ground attack or air combat, aside from it's naturally inferior flight capabilities to the 109.

[VBF-12_Snake9]

All things I adjust (if needed) DURING a dogfight. . .

 

Elevator trim

Rudder trim

Throttle

Flaps

Supercharger

Zoom

leaning around post

Rads

Prop Pitch

Mixture

Open canopy

landing gear(for drag) 

rudder

pitch

roll

WEP

track record

adjust sight for distance

 

I know I have done more but those are the ones I can remember.  They are like second nature, or "adjusting the radio dial in the car."  Not all are realistic but this is a game of gaining advantages.  Guys remember not all dogfights last 30 seconds. I've had plenty last longer then 20 minutes.  Those were the fun ones.  Of that long list TRIM is near the top during a dogfight for me.  X52 is not a super precise stick so a little trimming makes a huge difference.    

[79_vRAF_Friendly_flyer]

 LaGG,as it is now,is (maybe factory) trimmed to ~200km/h.Useless for air combat or ground attack.That is why I will most probably not enjoy early access until that is sorted out.Only if IL2 comes out sooner 

 

The the main problem really is with how the plane is trimmed, not the lack of trim per se?

[Sokol1]

This trim "mimimi"  remember Warbirds Online times, wheres some Fw190 pilots rarely touch the elevator (on joystick), only use ailerons to roll, and elevator trim for vertical movements, and bag a lot of TnB, trim "with arms" people.

 

Sokol1

[ShamrockOneFive]

The the main problem really is with how the plane is trimmed, not the lack of trim per se?

Oh no... the lack of trim on this plane makes flying it an exercise in frustration. It's ok for during circuits around the airfield but anything else is irritating. The nose is always wandering excessively...

[BeastyBaiter]

The the main problem really is with how the plane is trimmed, not the lack of trim per se?

 

 

Exactly. If it were trimmed for 300km/h then it would be fine, if trimmed for 500km/h that's also fine. The problem is it's trimmed for a 220km/h prop hang like thing. For all those saying it's not important; hop in the 109, set the trim to full up while sitting on the ground and then go about your business without changing it. Tell me how you like the 109 then.

[BraveSirRobin]

If you fly RoF enough you don't even notice the lack of trim.

[jaydee]

Exactly. If it were trimmed for 300km/h then it would be fine, if trimmed for 500km/h that's also fine. The problem is it's trimmed for a 220km/h prop hang like thing. For all those saying it's not important; hop in the 109, set the trim to full up while sitting on the ground and then go about your business without changing it. Tell me how you like the 109 then.

I decided to stay out of the discussion until now..Jason answered a post of mine "Saying" "They are working on it and will fix it". That's good enough for me !

Whether you need trim or don't,in combat/level flight.  whether WW1 planes had trim or not..How is any of that relevant ?

King_Hrothgar put it very well in this post ! To fly the Lagg in its "natural balance" for a given speed or AOA is very difficult at the moment !

They are going to fix it..my 2 cents ~S~

[SR-F_Winger]

I dont get it

Its broken

It will be fixed

so where is the problem?

I dont see it