Coordinated flight.

[pixelshader]

I always wondered, is there a speed gain from keeping the ball in the middle? Or, is the drag from using the rudder equal to the drag from not using the rudder?

 

If you lower your total drag by keeping coordinated flight, is it because the rudder has good leverage on the rest of the plane and can move it with little force?

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Ooh, can't wait for this discussion to commence

 

I'm a stick and rudder guy - always have been. I try to use coordinated flight at all times. At high speed, my rudder inputs are very minimal but still there. I use rudder quite a bit for small adjustments during firing solutions, both ground targets and airborne contacts.

 

B is gonna tell you not to use the rudder above a certain speed, S is gonna tell you all about coordinated flight, and C is gonna argue with them simply to argue. Fortunately they all have good points to offer. Filter out the info and implement what you find useful.

 

I think the short answer for most top line prop fighters is the rudder gets marginalized and used less the faster you go. At least in sims.

Edited January 2, 2014 by HerrMurf

[6./ZG26_Emil]

I always wondered, is there a speed gain from keeping the ball in the middle? Or, is the drag from using the rudder equal to the drag from not using the rudder?

 

If you lower your total drag by keeping coordinated flight, is it because the rudder has good leverage on the rest of the plane and can move it with little force?

 

 

If you are trying to get from a to b as fast as possible then I would say absolutely. In combat it goes right out of the window, the rudder for me becomes another tool to extract the quickest maneuvers whether it is a flick roll or hammer head and in B&Z. I will never be looking at the ball when performing ACM. The one exception to the rule would be a spiral climb above an enemy aircraft prior to my attack.

[OBT-Psycho]

there will always be a speed gain from getting the ball in the middle. but trims are supposed to be reset after each change of aircraft attitude. and as far as air combat goes, it would need to be constantly adjsuted, which drains your focus out and it is never a good thing. 

 

So in combat I usually set the trim before engagment and stick with it. there are many other thing to think about and that are way more important.

 

But in close formation fight for instance, a well trimmed aircraft is easier to fly. 

 

and this will help you to get those few last kph to achieve max speed for quick transitions

[Sternjaeger]

a coordinated turn is the most efficient one, because your fuselage will not cause excessive drag. Most advanced WW2 aircraft tended to auto-coordinate, but a rudder input would be necessary from time to time.

[andyw248]

Most advanced WW2 aircraft tended to auto-coordinate

 

"advanced ww2 aircraft" as in Ercoupe? Sorry, couldn't resist...

[HansHansen]

 Most advanced WW2 aircraft tended to auto-coordinate

 

How did they do that?

[Fifi]

a coordinated turn is the most efficient one, because your fuselage will not cause excessive drag. Most advanced WW2 aircraft tended to auto-coordinate, but a rudder input would be necessary from time to time.

 

Exactely this IMO 

[pilotpierre]

a coordinated turn is the most efficient one, because your fuselage will not cause excessive drag. Most advanced WW2 aircraft tended to auto-coordinate, but a rudder input would be necessary from time to time.

Hi Sternjaeger. Can you elaborate on this? My father was a pilot in the RAAF during WWII. The first time I took him up for some aerobatics and let him have a fly, (the first time on the controls for 40 something years), he was surprised how little rudder was required then compared to the 1940's planes he flew (Tiger Moths, Wirraways, Wellingtons and Dakotas).

[Sternjaeger]

the dynamics of a correct turn are the use of aileron AND rudder input to initiate a turn, but once you're in, you should be able to continue your turn with little or no rudder input to keep the ball centred. 

 

The factors that determine the magnitude of the required control input are the aircraft design, the bank angle and the speed you're flying at.

 

A Tiger Moth (or small GA aircraft or microlights) will always need a great deal of coordination throughout the turn, because it has a small engine and is a very dirty aircraft aerodynamically, so it will bleed speed fast  and will need to be "kept on track"; a twin engined aircraft like the DC-3s will need rudder input because of the two engines' configuration (apparently the C-46 is even more needy in terms of rudder control, because the big fuselage section causes a lot of aerodynamic shadow); but a P-51 or a T-6 will need little rudder input, because the big propellers keep the rudder in constant effective prop wash, which in turns allows a great authority and response.

 

It's kind of like the propeller is pulling you harder through your turn when you turn on a powerful aircraft, and you'll need less effort to keep the manoeuvre coordinated, especially when your propeller and rudder are on the same axis. This changes at lower speeds of course, where a more substantial input will be needed. 

 

Next time I'll go up I'll make a video to show this better. 

[pilotpierre]

Ok, that makes sense.

[DD_Perfesser]

In a plane it's hard to push the rudder into the airflow but in the game with no feedback force it's easy to carry a ton of rudder input without realising it after a few maneuvers so yeah, you should have one eye on the ball to get the best speed.

Maybe not so much in a turning fight but when speed is a factor in your survival glance at that ball whenever you can. Depending of course on how much the game actually models the drag of uncoordinated flight.

[SYN_Speck]

Interesting discussion. I've been borderline obsessive about maintaining coordinated turns since my early days of simming, the result of a tutorial I read when my habits were very impressionable. Since then I've wondered if I was paying too much attention to keeping coordinated, perhaps at the expense of what should be higher priorities, especially in combat.

 

A Tiger Moth (or small GA aircraft or microlights) will always need a great deal of coordination throughout the turn, because it has a small engine and is a very dirty aircraft aerodynamically, so it will bleed speed fast  and will need to be "kept on track"; a twin engined aircraft like the DC-3s will need rudder input because of the two engines' configuration (apparently the C-46 is even more needy in terms of rudder control, because the big fuselage section causes a lot of aerodynamic shadow); but a P-51 or a T-6 will need little rudder input, because the big propellers keep the rudder in constant effective prop wash, which in turns allows a great authority and response.

 

This reflects exactly the contrast I've noticed between ROF and BOS (and IL-2 FB before). Of course the aircraft in ROF have no slip ball, but thanks to the tangible physics modeling one does get a sense that more rudder input is needed to maintain a coordinated turn. In BOS, just a bit of rudder to initiate the turn and then virtually none. So I'm finding I'm often applying too much, as the result of my ROF habits.

[Fifi]

 Of course the aircraft in ROF have no slip ball, 

 

Plenty has slip balls actually 

[JG27*Kornezov]

I made some tests  off line and I did not see any any difference between rudder assist turned on and off.

 

The turns in the planes get perfectly coordinated without any rudder input. No side slips, no torque effects, no p factor nothing. The ball is centered without any rudder input.

 

Is it possible that the il 2 BOS has always rudder assist on and you cannot switch it off?

 

That was shown to me by a friend who did test flights. In il 2 1946 it was necessary to constantly work with the rudder to keep the turns coordinated and the ball centered.

 

That is not the case in il 2 bos, basically you do not need rudder at all.

Edited May 2, 2017 by JG27_Kornezov

[=TBAS=Sshadow14]

really it should be 98% of turns regardless of speed.

Even F22 or F35 have rudder mixing programmed into their Elevons

Big thing about un-coordinated flight is not rudder drag but fuselage drag

Also wing stability if you are yawwed  20* Nose to the right then right wing will have Much less Lift and you must counter this with left aileron

Hello you are now Cross Configured and in a dangerous flight attitude.

Yeah Rudders work fine in BOS (on full realism settings)
Every turn still needs a little rudder the ball is NOT Centered on full realism and there is LOTS of Adverse yaw (main reason to co-ord turns in a plane)

Its easy to test..
Fly plane Roll left (does the nose rise above then dip below horizon - this is adverse yaw )
If yes you needed rudder)

 

Edited May 2, 2017 by =R4T=Sshadow14

[19//Moach]

mind that rudder behavior in the current state of BoX is, uh... what should we call it?...  yeah:  wrong

 

there is a much anticipated update in the works which should correct many things regarding sideslip and rudder control in general - it should also deal with the infamous "wobble issue" - as well as the unnatural reaction to adverse yaw that many planes exhibit

 

 

or so I hear.... but there's still no official word on when this will hit the download pipes, so one might as well take a seat while waiting for this one (maybe get some food, you know...)

 

 

also, as far as I can tell from my best sims, and the little real world experience I got before it got too expensive - you really need rudder the most when rolling in and out of turns (to counter adverse yaw, mostly) - during the turn itself, you need only slight pressure to keep the ball centered, and less and less with more speed... on fighters, you rudder in and out of turns, and very little in between for most of the time

Edited May 2, 2017 by 19//Moach

[Myscion]

Hmm I have to agree with 

JG27_Kornezov

 

I recall playing 1946 and having to fight the rudder or else I would slip out of a turn. I think ROF as well. The dr.1 was particularly needy with rudder input. You could get a tight turn but at times it was like a hair trigger. That's not to say those games got it right. 

 

I've never flown any thing bigger than an RC plane so I have no idea but the other implementations are food for thought. 

[JG27*Kornezov]

Thank you for the comments. I wanted to point out that there is no perceivable difference between rudder assist  turned on and rudder assist turned off. I think in that way I could simplify the issue.

Edited May 2, 2017 by JG27_Kornezov

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

I always had impression that the is to little adverse yaw modeled, it's hard to sideslip. During 30 deg airelon turn without rudder nose of plan stays at horizon and in the time of input which initiate turn plane nose do not yaw in opposite direction.

[gnomechompsky]

+1 from me on not needing rudder to do coordinated turns in this game, although I almost exclusively use single engine planes. Not sure if this is realistic or not but the ball never seems to stray from the centre anyway.

[ACG_pezman]

Wow, I constantly have to trim the ball and step on it in turns to keep the aircraft coordinated. Why is my experience so different from everyone else's?

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

Wow, I constantly have to trim the ball and step on it in turns to keep the aircraft coordinated. Why is my experience so different from everyone else's?

For me i need to step on the ball in F4 109 during dives (left rudder) and climb (right) but i think it should be needed more during turns. I'm​ curious what new rudder patch bring in that matter...

[71st_AH_Mastiff]

I always wondered, is there a speed gain from keeping the ball in the middle? Or, is the drag from using the rudder equal to the drag from not using the rudder?

 

If you lower your total drag by keeping coordinated flight, is it because the rudder has good leverage on the rest of the plane and can move it with little force?

in essenes yes, and the more hours you put in you will see how much better and faster you get..

[FTC_Etherlight]

For the most part, stick to trying to keep the ball centered during situations where you absolutely need speed in a stable flight pattern, in BoS that's mostly a) running away from a dude and b) trying to chase down a dude at high speeds, especially in a dive. While just flying around and doing moderate turns, it's mostly negligible in my experience. Yeah, sure, do it for training purposes and when you're bored, but in a combat situation, your mental capacity is better spent in combat maneuvers and planning the engagement.

[Holtzauge]

The most important aspect of keeping the ball centered is IMHO for gunnery: If you want to hit anything in a chase scenario when the range gets bigger you need to ensure you are not sideslipping.

 

OTOH remember the old IL-2  before BoX? You yourself could be flying with a perfectly centered ball but the AI were always sideslipping there to spoil your aim when you were chasing them.......

[19//Moach]

Wow, I constantly have to trim the ball and step on it in turns to keep the aircraft coordinated. Why is my experience so different from everyone else's?

 

 

it wildly depends on the plane you're flying...

 

 

some of them behave like the stuff of Crimson Skies

 

whereas others (*cough*P-40*cough*... excuse me) are so touchy that any error in control gets punished by a physics defying DeathSlide™ which most often causes ^{(not "results from")} a violent accelerated spin throwing you out of control, and out of this life unto what lay after

 

 

 

you will not find consensus here - for the current state of things is one in where rudders behave in alien, contradictory, and mutually exclusive ways across various aircraft (albeit some of which are very similar types and configurations) 

 

 

and this in a nutshell, is why we desperately await the eagerly anticipated deliverance of the Rudder Fixes, whilom foretold in prophecy

[StickMan]

I'm going to necro this thread but I believe it's for a valid reason. Now that the FM update is live coordinated flight is more important than ever.

 

IRL you get a seat of the pants feel for the aircraft and keeping turns coordinated. Something we do not have in a sim. I can keep coordinated during normal flying and turns just by using the horizon or glancing at the ball. However once the 1v1 BFM starts happening I find it difficult to pay attention to the bandit and to keeping the aircraft coordinated especially in rolls.

 

So how do you guys do it? Have any of you changed your habits since the update? Or do you simply forget about it once you're in a furball?

Edited September 10, 2017 by StickMan

[=ARTOA=Bombenleger]

I would strongly advise against even thinking about the ball when dogfighting.
You should be able to develop a general feeling of how much rudder is needed in what kind of turn, depending on speed and plane.
The only thing i use the rudder for in a dogfight is to get my nose pointed where i want it to be, which most often will lead to a coordinated turn, or a sideslip if you want it.
But you dont need the ball for that, because you will know it by watching the other plane or the horizon, which is way easyer to read than a little cockpit gauge.

Edited September 10, 2017 by =ARTOA=Bombenleger

[JG13_opcode]

Hi Sternjaeger. Can you elaborate on this? My father was a pilot in the RAAF during WWII. The first time I took him up for some aerobatics and let him have a fly, (the first time on the controls for 40 something years), he was surprised how little rudder was required then compared to the 1940's planes he flew (Tiger Moths, Wirraways, Wellingtons and Dakotas).

Many modern aircraft have much better dynamics.

Edited September 11, 2017 by JG13_opcode

[WWGriphos]

In a knife fight, the argument can be made that uncoordinated turning has advantages. You'll lose a little energy (with actual cross controls), but you'll throw off the aim on a closely pursuing enemy trying for a solution.