Wolferl_1791 Posted March 19, 2018 Posted March 19, 2018 (edited) 6 minutes ago, III/JG2Gustav05 said: Are you kidding? this is deferent to the Fw190 case. think about it twice please. No, I'm not kidding. Yes, I know that the top edge would be basically opaque (although it would look slimmer), but what you lose on the top edge, you gain on the bottom. And anyway, the game doesn't mimic refraction at all. Here's how the thing looked like (at 5:47): 3 minutes ago, hrafnkolbrandr said: Speaking of this issue, you would think this could be something the mirror technology could fix. Rather than being a piece of glass that you see through; model it as a "mirror" that displays what is in front of you. I'd just make it an animated object that alters shape and opacity depending on which angle you're looking from. But again, this is a discussion which has come up again and again for many many years. I don't think there are any plans to fix it. Anyway, the LA5 glass does look VERY weird in game, I agree. It looks worse than the War Thunder variant. Edited March 19, 2018 by Wolferl_1791
III/JG2Gustav05 Posted March 19, 2018 Posted March 19, 2018 you gain nothing on the bottom in La5 FN case in real life, because the big engine. but you gain on the top side in game, that's for sure.
Wolferl_1791 Posted March 19, 2018 Posted March 19, 2018 16 minutes ago, III/JG2Gustav05 said: you gain nothing on the bottom in La5 FN case in real life, because the big engine. but you gain on the top side in game, that's for sure. Indeed. Well, in the old video, you can see the edge of the glass much higher above the gunsight. A quick fix for our issue would probably to make the glass slightly higher, so that the ugly edge overlaps the metal frame and not the gunsight.
-=PHX=-SuperEtendard Posted March 19, 2018 Posted March 19, 2018 (edited) It would also help the FN with deflection shooting, as the refraction would make the nose appear lower than what it really is, so the pilot would need to raise less his head to look over the nose (same effect than with the 190 bar), also the gunsight would be able to be mounted lower to retain the same visibilty as it is currently, or if kept in the same position it would have a higher separation from the nose. The thickness of the opaque area would also appear smaller. Something along the lines of this? Edited March 19, 2018 by -=PHX=-SuperEtendard
Wolferl_1791 Posted March 19, 2018 Posted March 19, 2018 15 minutes ago, -=PHX=-SuperEtendard said: Something along the lines of this? In a perfect case, you'd lose most of the bottom frame as well. Something like this. Notice much thinner side frames as well. 1
-=PHX=-SuperEtendard Posted March 19, 2018 Posted March 19, 2018 (edited) Yep, just realized and edited the bottom while I received the notification of your new post ^^ good point about the side frames as well, this is also the 109G would benefit from, and the IL-2 with the edges of the different armored glass pieces making the windshield. Edited March 19, 2018 by -=PHX=-SuperEtendard 1
3./JG15_Kampf Posted March 20, 2018 Posted March 20, 2018 I do not have laf5fn, but he looks like a monster. Fw 190 can not compete with laf5. Watch this video in the 8th minute. La5 fn is running from a fw190. Its energy should be slightly higher, but la5 fn turns 90 degrees to the right and then reverts 180 degrees to the left. Then it goes back 90 degrees and points to trajectory of the Fw190, that maintains trajectory and begins a slight ascent. Fw190 is easily reached while la5fn with all the curves performed does not seem to lose energy
Cpt_Siddy Posted March 20, 2018 Posted March 20, 2018 190 is worse climber, so in a climb, La-5FN will get it.
3./JG15_Kampf Posted March 20, 2018 Posted March 20, 2018 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Cpt_Siddy said: 190 is worse climber, so in a climb, La-5FN will get it. In the same energy, yes. What surprises me and that despite all the maneuvers, la5 fn is still with much energy retained Edited March 20, 2018 by 3./JG15_Kampf 2
-=PHX=-SuperEtendard Posted March 20, 2018 Posted March 20, 2018 (edited) Yep, the 190 at low altitude has imho little to do because the FN combines 190-like speeds with 109-like climbrate. He lost a good amount of energy though in those maneuvers, when he started he was going close to top speed at the deck around 570-580 km/h, after the maneuvers he's down to around 390 km/h, and catches up the 190 that was doing a low speed climb which is easily caught by the 20 m/s climb rate FN at low altitudes. When Sheriff started turning the 190 didn't mantain it's trajectory though, from the 190's point of view at 13:25 he climbed and lost some energy that he couldn't get back with the little dive afterwards (it sounded like the 190 lowered the throttle as well?), then he had the FN on his six and started a low speed climb which set him up for a shot. Bare in mind that the FN has 150 more HP at sea level and weights 620 Kg less than the 190 A-5 at their standard weights. I don't know what the fw could have done, I would have been shot down in the same situation as well... maybe keeping the straight line and trying to hit the La as he passed in front of the gunsight? if that fails then running away?, it isn't faster than the FN but with the 190 already at top speed it would gain some separation from the FN before it regains 580 km/h from the 390 km/h it ended up after the turns. Edited March 20, 2018 by -=PHX=-SuperEtendard
Finkeren Posted March 20, 2018 Posted March 20, 2018 Having flown some more, I gotta say, that as strong as it is, it has one significant weakness, that makes it a lot less effective than it potentially could be: The heavy elevator. I don’t know why it took me so long to notice. Perhaps because I’ve been flying the MiG-3 so much, that the FN appears to have just fine elevator authority at high speed. But against a Fw 190 it is just gonna get outmaneuvered at higher speeds.
YSoMadTovarisch Posted March 20, 2018 Posted March 20, 2018 5 minutes ago, Finkeren said: Having flown some more, I gotta say, that as strong as it is, it has one significant weakness, that makes it a lot less effective than it potentially could be: The heavy elevator. I don’t know why it took me so long to notice. Perhaps because I’ve been flying the MiG-3 so much, that the FN appears to have just fine elevator authority at high speed. But against a Fw 190 it is just gonna get outmaneuvered at higher speeds. Brah, do you even trim?
Finkeren Posted March 20, 2018 Posted March 20, 2018 Just now, YSoMadTovarisch said: Brah, do you even trim? Yep, doesn’t help. It’s not that the La-5FN has overly heavy elevator, it is certainly no MiG or Bf 109, but it is at a significant disadvantage against a 190 at higher speeds or when coming in fast against a slower 109.
Ehret Posted March 20, 2018 Posted March 20, 2018 (edited) Power-loading at standard weights and full power: 190 A-5 - 0.433 hp/kg P-39 - 0.441 hp/kg La-5FN - 0.559 hp/kg Edited March 20, 2018 by Ehret
FTC_DerSheriff Posted March 20, 2018 Posted March 20, 2018 (edited) 4 hours ago, -=PHX=-SuperEtendard said: I don't know what the fw could have done, I would have been shot down in the same situation as well... maybe keeping the straight line and trying to hit the La as he passed in front of the gunsight? if that fails then running away?, it isn't faster than the FN but with the 190 already at top speed it would gain some separation from the FN before it regains 580 km/h from the 390 km/h it ended up after the turns. He should have turned in to get a shot on me, force me to evade therefore force me to use more energy. So as I turn to the rght he could have pulled lead. Then continue with that speed and climb fly south/west on a high engine setting. While I could have catched him after a while, that is unlikely since that would have been in deep enemy territory with his G-4 friend around. But that move would have robbed me of the oppertuntly to roll over and shoot. My lost energy didn't matter because he didn't used that energy advantage to get out of gunrage. He even lost some energy with the up/down movement and he even reduced the distance to him with turning to the left in the climb. Then the climb itself was a bad idea like you aready mentioned. The FN has the much better climb rate. Edited March 20, 2018 by DerSheriff
Finkeren Posted March 20, 2018 Posted March 20, 2018 45 minutes ago, Ehret said: Power-loading at standard weights and full power: 190 A-5 - 0.433 hp/kg P-39 - 0.441 hp/kg La-5FN - 0.559 hp/kg While power/weight ratio can be an interesting data point, we should also keep in mind, that the plane with the highest value in that regard is the Polikarpov I-16 at 0.585. We also know, that the Fw 190 is a complete dog with a full fuel load, which is much larger than most other fighters currently in the sim apart from the P-40, which is something that also needs to be taken into account.
Ehret Posted March 20, 2018 Posted March 20, 2018 Just now, Finkeren said: While power/weight ratio can be an interesting data point, we should also keep in mind, that the plane with the highest value in that regard is the Polikarpov I-16 at 0.585. We also know, that the Fw 190 is a complete dog with a full fuel load, which is much larger than most other fighters currently in the sim apart from the P-40, which is something that also needs to be taken into account. The I-16 is a little different with low red-line, relatively high drag and only 1100hp at full power. The P-39 can be tweaked too, but the conclusion stays the same - the FN can out-energy opponents without too much effort, for now.
FTC_DerSheriff Posted March 20, 2018 Posted March 20, 2018 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Finkeren said: While power/weight ratio can be an interesting data point, we should also keep in mind, that the plane with the highest value in that regard is the Polikarpov I-16 at 0.585. We also know, that the Fw 190 is a complete dog with a full fuel load, which is much larger than most other fighters currently in the sim apart from the P-40, which is something that also needs to be taken into account. Nah usually the fuelload doesnt affect the 190 that much. At least when you fly the 190 to its strengh. Especially to call the fighter with the largest(?!) energy maneuverbility space a dog is a stretch. For me the 190 is still the best fighter in the game. Edited March 20, 2018 by DerSheriff 1
Finkeren Posted March 20, 2018 Posted March 20, 2018 8 minutes ago, DerSheriff said: Nah usually the fuelload doesnt affect the 190 that much. At least when you fly the 190 to its strengh. Especially to call the fighter with the largest(?!) energy maneuverbility space a dog is a stretch. For me the 190 is still the best fighter in the game. The 190 is the best fighter in the game, I agree. But I think it’s fair to say, that a full fuel load severely hampers the maneuvering it can do as well as its climb rate.
Panthera Posted March 20, 2018 Posted March 20, 2018 (edited) Calling the 190 the best fighter in the game is quite a stretch IMHO, esp. since currently it relies solely on speed to survive against a foe such as the Yak. Now that the La-5FN is here the 190 can't run away anymore, and it's slightly higher elevator authority at high speed only helps prolong the inevitable in any 1 on 1 fight. As it stands I will gladly take one any 190 pilot in the La-5FN with very high confidence of victory, and I know I'm far from the best pilot out there. With 1.58-1.65ata available without the burden of extra armour that might just change however, but it doesn't seem like we will ever get that option - atleast not until bodenplatte where clean A5's, A6's & A7's did run around with that boost setting along with the A8. Edited March 20, 2018 by Panthera
FTC_DerSheriff Posted March 20, 2018 Posted March 20, 2018 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Panthera said: Calling the 190 the best fighter in the game is quite a stretch IMHO, esp. since currently it relies solely on speed to survive against a foe such as the Yak. Now that the La-5FN is here the 190 can't run away anymore, and it's slightly higher elevator authority at high speed only helps prolong the inevitable in any 1 on 1 fight. As it stands I will gladly take one any 190 pilot in the La-5FN with very high confidence of victory, and I know I'm far from the best pilot out there. With 1.58-1.65ata available without the burden of extra armour that might just change however, but it doesn't seem like we will ever get that option. That can end in an endless discussion. But the 190 is much more flexible than any other fighter. The elevator autohority is not just "slightly" better at high speed. Its much better. Especailly if we talk about speeds the FN can't reach. I fly both sides 50:50. Score high scores on both sides, but the 190 is the much more rounded fighter. Yes in an 1v1 the FN has the advantage, but the 190 is much better in avoiding that 1v1. The FN is at the redline as soon as you enter a dive out of cruise. The 190 can dive at any time, always. Without fear of reaching that redline soon. While doing that the 190 is still highly manueverable. Can turn into aircraft. You can do all the shit fighter pilots like to do. If you hold me at gunpoint which fighter I want to fly my choose is the 190. Edited March 20, 2018 by DerSheriff 5
1CGS LukeFF Posted March 20, 2018 1CGS Posted March 20, 2018 8 minutes ago, Panthera said: atleast not until bodenplatte where clean A5's, A6's & A7's did run around with that boost setting along with the A8. ...except that there weren't any A-5s, A-6s, or A-7s to speak of by the time of Bodenplatte on the Western Front. 1
Panthera Posted March 20, 2018 Posted March 20, 2018 (edited) 4 minutes ago, DerSheriff said: That can end in an endless discussion. But the 190 is much more flexible than any other fighter. The elevator autohority is not just "slightly" better at high speed. Its much better. Especailly if we talk about speeds the FN can't reach. I fly both sides 50:50. Score high scores on both sides, but the 190 is the much more rounded fighter. Yes in an 1v1 the FN has the advantage, but the 190 is much better in avoiding that 1v1. The FN is at the redline as soon as you enter a dive out of cruise. The 190 can dive at any time, always. Without fear of reaching that redline soon. While doing that the 190 is still highly manueverable. Can turn into aircraft. You can do all the shit fighter pilots can do. If you hold me at gunpoint which fighter I want to fly my choose is the 190. Keep in mind that the 190's elevator lock up too, so the speed margin in which it is more maneuverable than the La-5 is limited. The 190 is great for shoot & scoot attacks, but if you miss that first attack and don't have any back up to clear your tail, then you can't run away from a La-5FN. Sure you can dive and gain distance, but all the La-5 pilot has to do is do a shallower dive and keep his eyes on you and eventually he will catch up, and then you're in trouble. 2 minutes ago, LukeFF said: ...except that there weren't any A-5s, A-6s, or A-7s to speak of by the time of Bodenplatte on the Western Front. There were plenty, they were just not used much on that occasion. Mostly they acted as fighter cover for the bomber destroyers. Edited March 20, 2018 by Panthera
1CGS LukeFF Posted March 20, 2018 1CGS Posted March 20, 2018 11 minutes ago, Panthera said: There were plenty, they were just not used much on that occasion Plenty, but not used much? C'mon, you can do better than that. I see nothing but A-8s and A-9s in Western Front Fw 190 units from November 1944 onwards.
FTC_DerSheriff Posted March 20, 2018 Posted March 20, 2018 14 minutes ago, Panthera said: Keep in mind that the 190's elevator lock up too, so the speed margin in which it is more maneuverable than the La-5 is limited. Sorry, you have really no clue. And with more knowledge about both aircraft you would see how ridicolous that is. I just quickly checked. And I see no MP expierience on your side. SP only? Dunno. 1 3
Panthera Posted March 20, 2018 Posted March 20, 2018 (edited) 5 minutes ago, DerSheriff said: Sorry, you have really no clue. And with more knowledge about both aircraft you would see how ridicolous that is. I just quickly checked. And I see no MP expierience on your side. SP only? Dunno. That's a rude and completely uncalled for comment. I've currently flown both aircraft a lot online, esp. the 190. But if you're going to claim that the 190's elevators don't lock up then I'm not the one with no clue. I don't know where you "checked", but I fly a lot of MP, I'm constantly on the Berloga & WOL server. 10 minutes ago, LukeFF said: Plenty, but not used much? C'mon, you can do better than that. I see nothing but A-8s and A-9s in Western Front Fw 190 units from November 1944 onwards. Just not at Bodenplatte, but plenty in 1944. Remember ~1400 A6 & A7's were produced up to April 44. There were still a large number around by November, mostly used in the escort role. Edited March 20, 2018 by Panthera
ATA_Vasilij Posted March 20, 2018 Posted March 20, 2018 After another flying with this plane: This is soooo lazy to an elevator.
FTC_DerSheriff Posted March 20, 2018 Posted March 20, 2018 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Panthera said: That's a rude and completely uncalled for comment. I've currently flown both aircraft a lot online, esp. the 190. But if you're going to claim that the 190's elevators don't lock up then I'm not the one with no clue. I don't know where you "checked", but I fly a lot of MP, I'm constantly on the Berloga & WOL server. ok, you haven't played in march at all on WoL. So that assessment is indeed wrong. my apologies. Berloga isnt a natural combat enviroment tho. Still. Yes the Fw elevator "locks up". But at that point the elevator of the FN is not attached anymore. Before that the FW is much much more maneuverable and can get shots. The FW can hold energy much better. Since it doesn't have to throttle down for the attack. All this, tells me that you are lacking the essential knowledge to judge what the Fw makes so good. I know that sounds arrogant. But my dunning kruger alarm is right now over 9000. So dont be offended. Thats not the intention. There is more to it than just a bit of speed and climbrate Edited March 20, 2018 by DerSheriff 2
303_Kwiatek Posted March 20, 2018 Posted March 20, 2018 (edited) 11 minutes ago, 3.IAP_Vasilij said: After another flying with this plane: This is soooo lazy to an elevator. Maby it is time to adjust elevator response also for LA5 and Lagg3. Other hand La5FN is roll like the hell where German raport says that La5FN roll between Fw 190 and 109. I didnt buy La5FN ( and i really dont want to do it now) but fight against it and shot a few of them in WOL server but what i see these planes got really most atuts. Its really very fast both at deck and 6 km, incredible roll rate and boost which could use for 10 minutes ( RL manual for 1943 says only 5 minutes). Still i think she is too much on the optimistic side of performacne expecially in roll rate, 10 minutes boost time and high alt speed. Other hand 109 still got only 1 minute emergency power where it should have 3 minutes.. Edited March 20, 2018 by 303_Kwiatek
Max_Damage Posted March 20, 2018 Posted March 20, 2018 (edited) 190 has a much better instantaneous turn as does the 109. But what makes the la5fn unique fw190 me109 la5fn good speed? yes no yes good t:w? no yes yes That at low altitude of course. If you accumulate your speed and do a vertical chandelle, the la5fn will win by far at low alt. With 200+ meters advantage in altutude gained. But you cant really shoot down an ace fw190 or a me109 if you arent an ace yourself. Edited March 20, 2018 by Max_Damage
Panthera Posted March 20, 2018 Posted March 20, 2018 (edited) 17 minutes ago, DerSheriff said: ok, you haven't played in march at all on WoL. So that assessment is indeed wrong. my apologies. Berloga isnt a natural combat enviroment tho. Still. Yes the Fw elevator "locks up". But at that point the elevator of the FN is not attached anymore. Before that the FW is much much more maneuverable and can get shots. The FW can hold energy much better. Since it doesn't have to throttle down for the attack. All this, tells me that you are lacking the essential knowledge to judge what the Fw makes so good. I know that sounds arrogant. But my dunning kruger alarm is right now over 9000. So dont be offended. Thats not the intention. There is more to it than just a bit of speed and climbrate Again the margin of superiority is debatable, esp. since the La-5 seems to retain roll rate just as well as the 190. As for the elevators not locking up before the La loses its elevators, that again is an exaggeration, making it hard to really have a serious debate. What makes the 190 good is obvious, doesn't take a genius to figure out. The 190 lives on speed, firepower, roll rate and overall good controllability at high speed unless you go too far. This doesn't automatically make it the best fighter ingame though, esp. not if you're in a 1 v 1 or up against equal numbers with the same flying discipline. As for Berloga, I find it the best place to explore the aircraft's limits as you're up against pilots actively scanning and constantly checking their six. On WoL I can't count the amount of times I've shot down or been shot down myself without even knowing someone was there. 11 minutes ago, 303_Kwiatek said: Maby it is time to adjust elevator response also for LA5 and Lagg3. Other hand La5FN is roll like the hell where German raport says that La5FN roll between Fw 190 and 109. I didnt buy La5FN ( and i really dont want to do it now) but fight against it and shot a few of them in WOL server but what i see these planes got really most atuts. Its really very fast both at deck and 6 km, incredible roll rate and boost which could use for 10 minutes ( RL manual for 1943 says only 5 minutes). Still i think she is too much on the optimistic side of performacne expecially in roll rate, 10 minutes boost time and high alt speed. Other hand 109 still got only 1 minute emergency power where it should have 3 minutes.. The La-5FN's bane atm is the 109, and that mostly because La pilots try to turn with it which usually leads to the 109 coming out on top (In my experience at least). But if you stay fast and use the same tactics as the 190 can use against most other VVS fighters, then you're going to retain the advantage rather easily it seems. Edited March 20, 2018 by Panthera 1
216th_Jordan Posted March 20, 2018 Posted March 20, 2018 22 minutes ago, Panthera said: The 190 lives on speed, firepower, roll rate and overall good controllability at high speed unless you go too far. This doesn't automatically make it the best fighter ingame though, esp. not if you're in a 1 v 1 or up against equal numbers with the same flying discipline. Sorry but if those attributes don't make it the best fighter then I don't know. To have the best top speed by a 10-15 kph margin doesn't make a plane the best. If you are in a high speed chase with a La-5 you scissor a little and make it overshoot and then pull shots on it or just dive away from it if you have a bit of altitude. If you are too afraid to scissor and roll around an La-5 the 190 maybe isn't the plane for you. 1
Panthera Posted March 20, 2018 Posted March 20, 2018 (edited) 30 minutes ago, 216th_Jordan said: Sorry but if those attributes don't make it the best fighter then I don't know. To have the best top speed by a 10-15 kph margin doesn't make a plane the best. If you are in a high speed chase with a La-5 you scissor a little and make it overshoot and then pull shots on it or just dive away from it if you have a bit of altitude. If you are too afraid to scissor and roll around an La-5 the 190 maybe isn't the plane for you. A good pilot will easily counter that by simply pitching up and climb above you, leaving you to scissor away all your energy. Sorry but the 190 really has proven no problem in MP for me in the La-5FN, it's mostly the 109F that causes problems now and then. Edited March 20, 2018 by Panthera
216th_Jordan Posted March 20, 2018 Posted March 20, 2018 Even a good pilots would be in a very bad situation for a good amount of time if he justpulled up, as he needs to make a separation of at least 500 meters to be safe from your shells.
CrazyDuck Posted March 20, 2018 Author Posted March 20, 2018 So, are we discussing whether the Fw 190 is the best fighter in the sim or the best dogfighter? I'm confused. 1
FTC_DerSheriff Posted March 20, 2018 Posted March 20, 2018 (edited) 15 minutes ago, CrazyDuck said: So, are we discussing whether the Fw 190 is the best fighter in the sim or the best dogfighter? I'm confused. Best fighter. e.g tactical effectiveness. Edited March 20, 2018 by DerSheriff
Panthera Posted March 20, 2018 Posted March 20, 2018 (edited) IMHO as it stands the La-5FN is the best fighter without a doubt, closely followed by the Spitfire which is let down by its ammo count. For shooting down unsuspecting victims, sure the 190 is probably best. Edited March 20, 2018 by Panthera
FTC_DerSheriff Posted March 20, 2018 Posted March 20, 2018 6 minutes ago, Panthera said: IMHO as it stands the La-5FN is the best fighter without a doubt, closely followed by the Spitfire which is let down by its ammo count. For shooting down unsuspecting victims, sure the 190 is probably best. Now you lost me completely. Cheers 6
ATA_Vasilij Posted March 20, 2018 Posted March 20, 2018 Nevermind the type of plane or graph of performances in different heights, temperatures or even Luna eclipses depends for sure, .... the german planes will be always shooted down. So what are we debating about?
Panthera Posted March 20, 2018 Posted March 20, 2018 17 minutes ago, DerSheriff said: Now you lost me completely. Cheers Again it's all about who you're fighting. If you opponent knows you're there, well then the 190 simply doesn't rank in the top 2 IMHO. In the 190 you need to be constantly going faster than your target, if you're not then you avoid him. So yeah, on WoL I do great in the 190, heck also on Berloga, but the kills are mostly going to be unsuspecting victims.
Recommended Posts