To Devs. Enemy at the gates. Wisely choose the Battlefield. South-West of Stalingrad!!!

[BG09]

Dear Devs,

The main ground army battles for Stalingrad were fought South West, West, and North-West of the Stalingrad. The city is just pile of rubble, where infantry was trapped. This means that the massive air battles are far on West to the city.

If you create a map which has the Stalingrad in to the center of the map, this will be a big problem, because the city have to be loaded every time we fly, and this will bring a lot of stutering, and useless computer resources engagement.

Better development, is to be created two maps! The First Map must have the city in its East half; The Second map must be the battlefield South West of Stalingrad, ending to the city bordrs, but the city must be out of the map!

My arguments are: The city is just pile of rubble, which will exhaust all of the computer resouces, filled with just infantry hidiing in to the rubbles.

 

According to General Mainstain memories, the general battles were NOT in TO THE CITY, but ARROUND the city, a lot on WEST Stalingrad, where the german tank armies where attempting to break the russian encirclement wrom the West. At that time Paulus was doing nothing to break the encirclement. So the aviation is engaged to the west side of this BIG battlefield.

 

The air battles in Staligrad were mainly for Mamayev kurgan Hill, where Il-2 Shturmoviks, every day poured tons of bombs bulets and shels. Afther the battles, in 1944, of that hill, Mamayev  kurgan on 1 sq.meter (fne square meter) were counted more then 1000 (one tousand) piesces of bones and shrapnes! So the main air war efforts where oh West on Stalingrad, and this is good, because it gives the opportunity to exclude the Stalingrad city from the second map, which will be historicly acurate, will free computer resources.

 

And one more thing: The accurate, historical creation of the city (which is just pile of ruble) will engulfe the main developers resources. 

 

Also In the city will be impossible to understand at whom you are shooting at. Be sure. From aviation point of view the city is not important target. Aviation is for ground support of the main tactical operations, which where West and North West, and South West of Stalingrad.

 

Probably it will be the best, the BoS to be issued with first map with no city included, but 1 year later to be issued an add on with the city included. Otherwise, I expect a disastrous troubles just like those with London city in Cliffs of Dover! Just imagine how many development resources engulfed the creation of the city! Probably more than 50%! I do believe, that this was the main cause for all troubles of Olegs team later. The concentration of the city remained no any time left for software problems solving...than we know what happened. This even led to full disbandment of the team. Oleg is no more in industry, Luthier too. Plese have this in mind. You are the last hope...Act strategicaly...or in this battle you will lose your army...

 

~S! 

Edited December 29, 2012 by BG09

[FlatSpinMan]

Interesting post. I don't know enough of the air battle to comment on the accuracy. I think the current plan is to create one single map (see this link for the area http://users.teledisnet.be/web/mfe39146/HeeresMap0.jpg ). Wouldn't a pile of rubble with several key locations recreated accurately be easier on a computer than the whole of London?

The idea of saving resources by eliminating the city is interesting and certainly a good one for those of us with less than top-spec machines. Making two separate maps just adds to the team workload but I guess splitting one big map into three (full, partial with Stalingrad, partial in west) might be easier. Either, way, it doesn't seem to be part of their plan right now.

[Juri_JS]

I don't expect huge performance issues on the BoS map. First of all the area of Stalingrad is much smaller than London, it had around 500.000 inhabitants before the war. Moreover there will be few woods on the map and the other towns in the area are relatively small.

Edited December 29, 2012 by Juri_JS

[dburne]

Well they certainly have done a good job with the new channel map for ROF, so far my performance in it seems to be very good.

[SYN_Ricky]

From reading Black Cross / Red Star i have the impression that the biggest aerial engagements happened in the opening stages of the battle, before winter settled in.

 

After the 6th army got surrounded the german concentrated on their air supply operation from bases quite far away, with a few fighters left at Pitomnik...

[Mac_Messer]

Hey, we`ve had the Stalingrad map in the old IL2, didn`t we? Did the game slow down over the city? Yes, certainly, but not to make it unplayable. Flying directly over Stalingrad online happened rarely, and through a very short amount of time.

 

So I partly disagree of two map concept.

 

First off, online wars were fought on the whole map, which meant that both sides attacked and defended on multiple grounds. And that means that the Luftwaffe attacked from more or less every possible direction - yes, even south eastern, with much success. At some time we`ve had attacked Stalingrad from both direct south and north, but the LW rarely succeeded in surrounding the city, if even for several hours.

 

Another thing - even if we have an aerial game, the context of the campaign is clear , it is a ground battle. LW/VVS are only supporting the ground with supplies, bombing and tactical bombing. Even if LW gained air superiority, still the winning of the whole campaign rests 70% on what is going on the ground. Hence, I think we needn`t getaway from the character of what went in the Soviet WWII campaigns.

[BG09]

Dear friends,

 

Stalingrad was destroyed completely from Luftwaffe into the first stage of the battle with usage of big quantity of ignition bombs. The efect was DEVASTATING: even the asphalt of the streets and the telegraph poles were burning. In to the first burn-out assault more than 60 000 civilians died. The city was completely devastated. So the city is useless to be created at this stage of the project. The city creation will bring the project in dead end street. I do thing, even, that probably it will be wise decision, the devs, to buy the city's 3D model fro "The Red orchestra" team, and just to paste it in to the "Battle Of Stalingrad"!

 

Hitler gave orders to general Paulus not to break the encirclement from inside but to hold the "Fortres Stalingrad". So this makes the city, useless for the battle simulation. And one more thing, the city was not evacuated from the civilians, because Stalin ordered this: The civilians to remain in to the city, in order Red army to be motivated to fight for the civilians. This way, when you are fighting above or bombing the city you will be abble just to shoot at unknown infantry units and civilians. There was memories of Stalingrad defenders: "There was a lot of occasions, like this - on the first floor of the buiding are the germans, on to the second floor of the building are we, the russians, on the third floor again are the german troops... and we constantly was changing the floors of the building. Some bulding changed hands more than 18 times!".

 

The interesting part from the battle begins when the Sovier masive reinforcemants arrive and the massive FIELD battles began oh the vast planes on the WEST of Stalingrad.

 

The massive tactical battles are on front 40-120 kilometers away to WEST of Stalingrad.

 

The Soviet Ace Pokrishkin was hunting german supply cargo planes Ju-52 OVER Black sea, equiped with external fuel tanks of his aircraft! After his flights, he gives his external fuel tanks to his comrades, because they were thrown away their external tanks earlier, thinking them for useless, because of the close combats of the opposite sides. 

 

The Germah Ace Ruddel was making his Ju-87 air strikes on the far WEST of Stalinglad, where the romanian troops were, and even was a witness of their withdrawal from their positions under the strike of the soviet infantry. He said that if he was having at that moment any amo left, he would be using it to shoot at the runing romanian ifantry, recognizing it by the brown uniforms from the air.

 

Interesting point at this moment is that fact that Ruddel was hunting foxes in to the snow with his Ju-87, shooting them with Ju-87 wing mashineguns, but their furs were so ridled with bullets, that they fit for nothing.

 

One more argument not to create the City of Stalingrad, is this: The battles in to the spring and summer of 1943 above Cuban south-West of Stalingrad were the most intense ever: clashes of 200-300 arcrafts strong air goups in to the air, with more than 80 aircrafts from the both sides engaged in one dogfight. Again the city of Stalingrad haves nothing directly connected with this aviation events.

 

And finaly...I am realy afraid from this city: It can bring the devs team in to the trap, in which General Paulus was trapped. This will bring the aviation simulation on its knees. Draining of financial resources will put wooden cross over this wonderful project. Dear Devs.... Stay away from this City... Stay at the fields at the first stage of the project!

Please be cautious!

 

~S!

[Laser]

Didi, don't press the red button! Noooooooo!

 

(Seriously, why the panicked tone)

Edited December 30, 2012 by Laser

[LG1.Farber]

As stated by the devs, this is a flight sim, they are probably not bothered really with the back drop...

[=BKHZ=Furbs]

Its a Trap!

[Bearcat]

It would be nice to have an accurate Stalingrad map thoug.. with the partly destroyed city.

[SYN_Vander]

So many concerns already! I woud let the devs worry about how to create a Stalingrad that will not cause stutters. From what I know, they will not accept anything less.

It's good to point out where the main area of interest is for the aerial battles though.

[Monk]

Definatelythe focus would be on the are west of the city. I've read a fair bit on the ground war in this area, but not a lot on the air war, but I would assume, especially for the IL2 itself most of the work would be on the airfields and armor tryng to supprt the city. The game gives a good chance to support the later Soviet offences to encircle the 6th army. I would still like to have the opportunity to bomb the barges crossing the Volga to reinforce the Soviet troops on the bank

[Black-Hussar]

Definatelythe focus would be on the are west of the city. I've read a fair bit on the ground war in this area, but not a lot on the air war, but I would assume, especially for the IL2 itself most of the work would be on the airfields and armor tryng to supprt the city. The game gives a good chance to support the later Soviet offences to encircle the 6th army. I would still like to have the opportunity to bomb the barges crossing the Volga to reinforce the Soviet troops on the bank

 

Not only the barges crossing the Volga. I hope that there will be also huge parts east of the river available in order to attack supply / deployment zones and artillery untis of the red army.  

[AX2]

 BG09 Thanks for the  all data. 

OK, Is BoS no RoF.. but..

 

I can only say two things , I play RoF and Is a great game engine  :D

 

RoF has no problems with cities or stutering. 

 

I Think ...easily handles the city of Stalingrad. 

 

But I must tell my true, That's what I get online,

 

Online..,  ten planes in close doghfight..weigh more than three Stalingrad. together ..

  

But I'm sure that will not be a problem in the future,  :D

[Monk]

Not only the barges crossing the Volga. I hope that there will be also huge parts east of the river available in order to attack supply / deployment zones and artillery untis of the red army.  

 

Definately would be the Luftwaffe's focus for sure.