What difference does removing two guns from P40 make?

[56RAF_Roblex]

 

I know I can go out and do testing myself but I wondered if anyone had already done it and there was a thread or video hanging around?

[Psyrion]

I don´t know if it makes you much faster but the additional ammo load out changes giving you quite a bit more ammo.

[216th_Jordan]

less inertia for rolls and less weight for tighter turns. Or oyu can load up additional ammo for the 4 guns.

[CanadaOne]

Ya gotta love having six 50s. 

 

Worth their weight in gold.

[Livai]

Same answer as ->  "What difference does removing the 1000kg bombs under my plane in term of flight performance during climb, dogfight whatever"

 

[Avimimus]

Part of me wishes it was a P-40 variant that had a field mod for only two guns (as was the case in Russia). But I believe these were earlier P-40s with the cowl mounted guns!?

[Eicio]

31 minutes ago, Livai said:

Same answer as ->  "What difference does removing the 1000kg bombs under my plane in term of flight performance during climb, dogfight whatever"

 

 

Except that 2 50cal probably don't weight 1t and they are not outside or the plane.

 

So I can't see the usefulness of your post apart from being mean, for no reason...

 

To answer I often flew without 2 guns to get a huge more ammo for less machineguns, thus I would always take those bonus ammunitions but I found that 2 50cals make an actual difference and add a significant damage abilities to the plane.  

 

The thing is that having like 30s of firing time is not that helpful when you can't get more than few shots on 109s and 6 bombers can down any he-111 in a single burst, if you aim right obviously.

[Eicio]

44 minutes ago, Avimimus said:

Part of me wishes it was a P-40 variant that had a field mod for only two guns (as was the case in Russia). But I believe these were earlier P-40s with the cowl mounted guns!?

 

The earlier P40 (all versions until E) had indeed 2 mgs nose mounted like the P36 but I don't think that they were ever used alone. I also believe that if you look at the earlier P40 it really looks like the hurricane, not the wings though.

Edited March 8, 2018 by Eicio

[Ehret]

It makes a difference, especially when used with the reduced fuel load. Alone, the removed pair of 50 cals lightens standard takeoff weight by 4 percent. Firepower-wise (subjective) it is not worse than Soviet's 2x12.7mm, so it's a very useful mod to use when opposition is difficult.

[BlitzPig_EL]

It should be noted that the P40N, the most built and best performing Hawk 87 model, was initially delivered with only 4 M2 Browning guns, as one of it's many weight saving measures, but usually had the other two re-installed in the field.

[=362nd_FS=RoflSeal]

Only the first 2 blocks N-1 and N-5 were fitted in the factory with four machine guns. The other blocks all the way up to N-40 had 6 .50s fitted.

[Avimimus]

6 hours ago, Eicio said:

 

The earlier P40 (all versions until E) had indeed 2 mgs nose mounted like the P36 but I don't think that they were ever used alone. I also believe that if you look at the earlier P40 it really looks like the hurricane, not the wings though.

 

I believe some of the units (near Moscow?) actually removed the wing mounted .303s Part of it might have been ammunition availability, part of it was saving weight. I'll see if I can find the reference.

[busdriver]

For SP campaigns and MP, I select the 4 guns and extra ammo. I guess I employ the logic of the Pacific Fleet pilots' preference for the F4F-3 over the F4F-4.

[Vig]

"If you can't hit 'em with four, you can't hit 'em with six."

[Dutchvdm]

If you take the 4 guns, don't make the mistake of taking the extra ammo for those 4 guns. The 4 guns with extra ammo is the heaviest loadout for the aircraft. 

 

Removal of 2 external wing-mounted machine guns to reduce total weight

Weight savings: 156 kg

Removed ammunition mass: 64 kg

Removed guns mass: 92 kg

Estimated additional speed: 3 km/h

 

Additional ammo for machine guns: 312 for internal ones, 291 for middle ones, 240 for external ones (instead of 235 per each) or 615 per each for 4x MG.

6 machineguns:

Additional mass: 38 kg

Estimated speed loss: 0 km/h

4 machineguns:

Additional mass: 207 kg

Estimated speed loss: 2 km/h

[busdriver]

50 minutes ago, I./ZG1_Martijnvdm said:

If you take the 4 guns, don't make the mistake of taking the extra ammo for those 4 guns. The 4 guns with extra ammo is the heaviest loadout for the aircraft. 

 

 

 

I don't think that's a mistake at all. Simply take 288 liters (76 US gallons) less fuel if you want to offset the additional weight of the ammo. In SP campaign sorties I typically only take a half (50%) load of fuel. But I'll take all the extra .50 cal bullets I can.

[CrazyDuck]

1 hour ago, I./ZG1_Martijnvdm said:

If you take the 4 guns, don't make the mistake of taking the extra ammo for those 4 guns. The 4 guns with extra ammo is the heaviest loadout for the aircraft. 

 

I have to disagree as well. 4 guns + additional ammo gives you insane fire duration (most LMGs in the sim have lower ammocount, let alone the HMGs). Coupled with the fact that the M2 packs a hefty punch, this enables you to decimate half the Wehrmacht in a single sortie!

Yes the plane is a bit heavier, but that's a low price for all the firepower it gives you.

 

I guess the only situation I'm not taking the additional ammo on P-40 is on the quick action dogfight oriented servers. I usually don't last long enough for the additional ammo to count, so why bother. :D

[Dutchvdm]

Let me rephrase my statement. It's not that the 4 guns mod with extra ammo is bad. It's just that one might assume it's lighter than the normal load-out's, and if one would want to go for a lighter loud-out it's probably not the best choice. 

[Monostripezebra]

The whole point of the 4 guns with extra ammo for me.... is to use them with a looong reaching convergence setting. The ballistical properties and hitting power of the 50ies even at long range are a very good motivation to make the enemy weave and turn and ample of bullets mean you don´t need to worry about what shots you take.

 

So one possible role for the P40 with it´s diving capability is to create the engagement possibilities for the other russian fighters. If you have a bunch of let´s say I-16s defending against beeing pounced on by faster germans going all zoom and boom, bringing in some back-stepped P40 top cover to dive after them and make them turn creates the opportunity for the I-16s to get better into the engagement. it´s a bit of an anchor plane, if you will.

[Cybermat47]

18 hours ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

It should be noted that the P40N, the most built and best performing Hawk 87 model, was initially delivered with only 4 M2 Browning guns, as one of it's many weight saving measures, but usually had the other two re-installed in the field.

 

I recall hearing that the veteran Kittyhawk pilots were very, very disappointed to lose two of their beloved M2s.

[Eicio]

2 hours ago, FFS_Cybermat47 said:

 

I recall hearing that the veteran Kittyhawk pilots were very, very disappointed to lose two of their beloved M2s.

 

I understand why, the 6 mgs loadout is really powerful, I even wonder if it's more powerful than a plane with 2 mg151/20

[Poochnboo]

More firepower is what fighter pilots want. Kit Carson was in the minority when he used that "If you can't hit em with 4 guns you can't hit em with 6." He was also an excellant shot. Most fighter pilots aren't. So, the more guns, the more lead being thrown out, the more chance of hitting something. The P-51B/C's had 4 fifties. When North American designed the D they added the two guns because of pressure from Mustang pilots complaining that the airplane neded more hitting power. I keep my six guns because I suck at gunnery!

[Ehret]

The A36 had 6 50 cals - why was the nose pair removed in later versions? To fit the Merlin?

The P51-IA had quad Hispanos in wings - why this variant wasn't adopted instead? Was it because of poor reliability of cannons?

Edited March 9, 2018 by Ehret

[zebra0312]

4x20mm Hispanos didnt make much difference to 6x50 and were easier to get, thats why.

 

Edit: and faster firing of course. Makes more sense if you want destroy fighters in the role of an escort fighter.

Edited March 9, 2018 by zebra0312

[Eicio]

I thought the weight was also more heavier but not that much, maybe the extended barrels of the hispano were also a bad thing compare to the shorter m2 ?

[[CPT]Pike*HarryM]

The cannons sticking out probably disturbed airflow over the wings which was a concern for the 51 with it's laminar flow wing. They took pains to smooth out the wing surfaces to get max performance. Plus the US made Hispanos sucked.

[56RAF_Roblex]

All these replies have missed the point of my original question :-)    I did not ask about using additional ammo, that can be used with either four or six guns.  What I was asking about was what difference it makes to the performance which was why the option existed.   

 

It is supposed to help with the roll rate etc. but I was wondering if it really gives enough extra performance to be worth losing 1/3 of your firepower.   On the face of it it would seem the obvious answer is "Hell no! I would rather hit hard than fly pretty." but if you asked someone whether it is worth fitting gunpods to a 109 or I-16 many people would say "Hell no! The existing guns are good enough and and performance drop is too big."   I know removing two guns from the P40 will not give as big a performance increase as removing gun pods from a 109 but I just wondered if anyone had done any testing to see what it actually does.

 

As for using extra ammo with either four or six guns I am not convinced that having the ability to spray & pray for a long time is worth losing the hitting power of six guns.   I would rather kill three planes fast with short bursts than six planes spraying from extreme range.   It is not often I can get even find three suitable targets in one sortie,  never mind six and the ones I do find I want to kill quickly in a single pass and get to safety, not follow enemies round the sky spraying tracers for all to see.

[busdriver]

18 minutes ago, 56RAF_Roblex said:

All these replies have missed the point of my original question :-)    I did not ask about using additional ammo, that can be used with either four or six guns.  What I was asking about was what difference it makes to the performance which was why the option existed.   

 

 

To be fair, you asked a nebulous question. Some interpreted your question as pertaining to the efficacy of 4 vs 6 guns. I thought testing meant MP kill efficiency, or kills per sortie. A specific rather than a general (open to interpretation) inquiry might have saved the confusion. 

[56RAF_Roblex]

7 minutes ago, busdriver said:

 

To be fair, you asked a nebulous question. Some interpreted your question as pertaining to the efficacy of 4 vs 6 guns. I thought testing meant MP kill efficiency, or kills per sortie. A specific rather than a general (open to interpretation) inquiry might have saved the confusion. 

 

Agreed.  I did not expect people to interpret "What difference does removing two guns from P40 make?" as a question about using extra ammo.  One person did answer that it would improve the roll rate but I already knew that and was asking if anyone knew *how much* it affected the roll rate and climb etc.  I should have been more specific.

[busdriver]

1 minute ago, 56RAF_Roblex said:

 

Agreed.  I did not expect people to interpret "What difference does removing two guns from P40 make?" as a question about using extra ammo.  One person did answer that it would improve the roll rate but I already knew that and was asking if anyone knew *how much* it affected the roll rate and climb etc.  I should have been more specific.

 

No worries.

 

USN Pacific Fleet Wildcat pilots were royally p*ssed off that Grumman was adding two guns to the F4F-4. The reason for the change was a contract requirement for the FAA Martlet/Wildcat. I suspect those of us that did answer in that fashion were acutely aware of significant reduction in firing time between 4 guns and 6 guns in this case. So that's the simple answer, but having the ability to add .50 cal rounds...is a no-brainer option. I like to strafe in game, could care less about comparative roll rates, so it didn't dawn on me that you were asking about roll rates.