ME 262

[CountZero]

4 minutes ago, =BAIT=CG_Justin said:

 

Who says they shouldn't?

their sane brain, lol you as big fan of Pe-2 have clouded mined so i understand its hard for you to see their logic of not having Pe-2 on missions that represent west front battles, you can play with Pe-2 on eazt front battles, and dont need to use it on west front, im sure youll be able to avoid servers or missions not using Pe-2 since you love it so mutch

Edited February 27, 2019 by 77.CountZero

[Ehret]

17 minutes ago, 77.CountZero said:

who needs bomber when you have p-47 that turns like zero and carys more bombs and rockets then any bomber in game.

 

Well... there is interesting tactic which I didn't see yet - get a squadron of bomb loaded Jugs and one (or two - for a spare) A-20/Pe-2. The latter would lead and provide bomb-sight for level bombing. Once free of ordnance Jugs could engage enemy planes from high altitude or run away.

[=EXPEND=CG_Justin]

Just now, 77.CountZero said:

their sane brain, lol you as big fan of Pe-2 have clouded mined so i understand its hard for you to see their logic of not having Pe-2 on missions that represent west front battles, you can play with Pe-2 on eastz front battles, and dont need to use it on west front, im sure youll be able to avoid servers or missions not using Pe-2 since you nlove it so mutch

 

You make me laugh. Avoid servers....hahahahaha!!! I will avoid "servers" as much avoid a good fight in the 110. And, I don't love the Pe-2, but I do love Jesus, and he is the tail gunner.

 

You completely missed the point...but c'est la vie. I guess some folks have no sense of imagination, or humor for that matter. Cheers mate!

[CountZero]

9 minutes ago, Ehret said:

 

Well... there is interesting tactic which I didn't see yet - get a squadron of bomb loaded Jugs and one (or two - for a spare) A-20/Pe-2. The latter would lead and provide bomb-sight for level bombing. Once free of ordnance Jugs could engage enemy planes from high altitude or run away.

Because in this game bombing from high alt in group is waist of bombs, you need to hit single buildings to finish objective not area, so you constantly see low alt bombing, and if its high alt its one or two and not 10-15 airplanes. You cant make use of all your bombs as effective as you can when you just go low and pinpoint bomb every barn or what not on objective.

4 minutes ago, =BAIT=CG_Justin said:

 

You make me laugh. Avoid servers....hahahahaha!!! I will avoid "servers" as much avoid a good fight in the 110. And, I don't love the Pe-2, but I do love Jesus, and he is the tail gunner.

 

You completely missed the point...but c'est la vie. I guess some folks have no sense of imagination, or humor for that matter. Cheers mate!

I know you dont like to play with pe-2 you just apriciate its gunner, so why would axis player wont to see more Pe-2s on west front, they would gladly see no Pe-2 on west front, and no one with sane mined would force to have them there if you have no reason to have them. If you wont to get out frustrations build up from their great gunners you can shoot them down in QM with 262 when it comes out, but dont expect to have that oportunity online ?

Edited February 27, 2019 by 77.CountZero

[=EXPEND=CG_Justin]

2 minutes ago, 77.CountZero said:

 

I know you dont like to play with pe-2 you just apriciate its gunner, so why would axis player wont to see more Pe-2s on west front, they would gladly see no Pe-2 on west front, and no one with sane mined would force to have them there if you have no reason to have them. If you wont to get out frustrations build up from their great gunners you can shoot them down in QM with 262 when it comes out, but dont expect to have that oportunity online ?

 

Thanks for the enlightenment. I'll keep that in mind.

[CountZero]

1 minute ago, =BAIT=CG_Justin said:

 

Thanks for the enlightenment. I'll keep that in mind.

And world is at peace again, now some one tell that japan priminister to propose me for nobel prize

Edited February 27, 2019 by 77.CountZero

[CIA_Yankee_]

19 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

 

First - It’s threat was to the heavies which we don’t have.

 

Second - you have to be asleep to let yourself get shot down by a 262.  

 

 

 

I'm not sure we're you're coming from there... bouncing unwary aircraft was the single most common way people were shot down in the war, as many aces have attested. And the Me262 can bounce just as well as anything, and has the idea armament to kill its targets on a first pass.

 

Yes, the 262 will be moving faster, which will significantly reduce the window for shooting, but I am very confident that anyone sufficiently experienced will be more than capable of landing a salvo on a hapless target. And then it'll just keep on going and climb out of reach of any potential return fire.

 

That amazing capacity to boom and zoom is what makes the 262 so powerful, and it doesn't matter if the target is a fighter or a heavy bomber if the bounce is well executed. And speed alone is also a major bonus: you have a lot less time to react and spot the incoming bounce than with other fighters.

 

But as I wrote: we'll get to see who's right once the 262s flood the fantasy servers.

19 hours ago, Panthera said:

I won't ever forget how easy it was to catch even the most aware of people offguard in the Me262 back in IL46  The speed at which you can appear and disappear really is hard to guard against.

 

Exactly. Speed is an amazing assets, and it makes bounces not only easier to recover from, but also to delivery. Sure, you need to be super accurate to land your shots on your ludicrously fast pass, which no doubt gave trouble to 262 pilots in RL... but this is a sim. I'm sure most 262 pilots will develop the necessary skill in due time. And with 4 30mm cannons, it's not like a sustained burst is necessary.

 

As for the turning radius, I'm not quite convinced: I imagine a prop fighter will make life difficult to any 262 that tries to play the turning game. 

 

Indeed, it's not hard to demonstrate: hop in a 109 and try to turnfight an I-16 or a Po-2.  It generally will not end well. Or an F-16 vs a Spitfire. 

 

But the real question: why would you ever do something so stupid? If I run into a Sopwith Camel in my Spitfire, the _last_ think I would do is try to turn with it. I'd just fight in the vertical and keep doing slashing attacks until I won. Even with the camel being able to dodge better, the fact is I would have the initiative the whole fight. I expect it will be much the same with the 262. Why even think of putting yourself in such a situation? Make a pass, take your shot, power away, and reset.

 

So yes, absent the complete air superiority of the allies, the 262 will be a major threat. Hopefully mission designers will take that into account. There's a reason everyone went to jet engines ASAP, and its the same reason everyone went from Biplanes to monoplanes. Speed trumps maneuverability, every time.

19 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

262 vs Mustang etc is like an Oscar vs a Hellcat. (or better yet, P-38 vs Oscar)

 

If both pilots are on their toes neither can touch the other. One is far too maneuvable to worry, the other is much too fast to worry.

Someone makes a HUGE mistake then anything can happen.

 

Pretty simple equation really.

 

Except one of them can reset and disengage at will, while the others has to stay on the defensive. 

 

It's a lot easier to avoid making mistakes when you're the one holding the initiative the entire fight.

[Gambit21]

8 minutes ago, 71st_AH_Yankee_ said:

 

I'm not sure we're you're coming from there... bouncing unwary aircraft was the single most common way people were shot down in the war, as many aces have attested. And the Me262 can bounce just as well as anything, and has the idea armament to kill its targets on a first pass.

 

Yes, the 262 will be moving faster, which will significantly reduce the window for shooting, but I am very confident that anyone sufficiently experienced will be more than capable of landing a salvo on a hapless target. And then it'll just keep on going and climb out of reach of any potential return fire.

 

 

No argument from me on the bounce thing.  

 

During the war like I said (the way the war actually played out, not the “what if” war)

the 262 was only a significant threat to the heavies. A 262 would often take out 2B-17’s in a single pass.

 

Online remains to be seen...I don’t remember problems in the old sim...but yes I agree about the massive bounce advantage.

 

[Rjel]

5 hours ago, =BAIT=CG_Justin said:

 

Considering we don't have the BoBP map yet, and until we do....literally everyone. Until we have the map, everything is going to be fantasy.

WHAT???? You mean this all real after all???

 

I have to say, the virtual trash talk in this thread is impressive.

[=TBAS=Sshadow14]

LMAO is there another link to Original video..

Says youtube shut down account because too many goody two shoes (sheep)reported the copyrights.

 

Edited February 27, 2019 by =TBAS=Sshadow14

[JG7_RudeRaptor]

On 3/7/2018 at 8:37 AM, RAY-EU said:

The ME 262 start a new era of the aviation , it was a superior weapon ... With a lot of potential .

 

 

 

Hahah I posted that video on Youtube ...

[RAY-EU]

Thanks to you Rude Raptor ! With your permissions very good YouTube Video .

& The day after Tomorrow …..

                        ME 262 A1b 

ME 262A1b was powerful armed 4x30mm , 2X250 SD Bombs & the 24 R4M 55mm Antitanks rockets!

This 30mm OOVOO should be more lethal than a 15 mm °°°v°°° machine  gun?

Edited March 2, 2019 by RAY-EU

[Panthera]

7 hours ago, 71st_AH_Yankee_ said:

As for the turning radius, I'm not quite convinced: I imagine a prop fighter will make life difficult to any 262 that tries to play the turning game. 

 

In radius for sure, and I'd never advice anyone to engage in a prolonged turning fight with a prop fighter. Depending on entry speed you should in general refrain from attempting to follow a turn past the first 120 deg. Hence I was refering more to rate and not radius, as at the speeds where the Me262 would normally operate it could achieve quite an impressive turn rate, way above what the pilot could even tolerate, and the slats allow for that little extra lead you often find yourself needing when taking a shot at an evading prop job. The key is just to avoid turning with the target past the first 120 deg and never do hard maneuvers below ~450 km/h as you lose your acceleration advantage below this speed. Follow that advice and should you fail to attain proper lead the first time, well then you just level off and accelerate away out of reach only to come back in for another try. 

 

On 2/26/2019 at 10:15 PM, Gambit21 said:

 

To be clear - we were never talking about being the “guy that I never saw”

I made that clear in our conversation before. Surprise tips the balance for any aircraft, not just the 262.

 

The 262 Just has a larger margin in this department.

 

I look forward however to our head to head duel so that you can prove you’re ability to shoot me down with a 262 “no matter how aware I am” 

Remeber I just have to stay away.

 

I think I can eat a sandwich and avoid your feeble attacks with ease - but we shall see.

Going to be a good time in any case.

 

Retaining energy will aid you in staying away from the Mustang or Spit...but doesn’t help you get your guns on him.

 

Ask the Oscar pilot who evaded a pair of P-38’s for 20 minutes until the 2 38’s gave up and went home.

 

That’s what I’m talking about.

I remember Beowulf making high speed passes and trying to shoot down my I16 until he ran out of ammo. I couldn’t touch him, but avoiding his attacks was very easy.

 

Same thing. 

 

I get what you're saying, and I would ofcourse be lying if I claimed I had never run across a prop fighter in the Me262 that proved difficult to shoot down or in some cases even ended up shooting me down instead. My point though is that in general, assuming both pilots are experienced & aware of each other, the Me262 will prevail far more often than not vs a prop fighter, as that was overwhelmingly the case in my experience.

 

So yeah, you could very well end up getting the better of me during our jousting, esp. since I definitely wouldn't call myself an "ace" or "experten", but what I really want to prove to you though is that you wont be able to eat a sandwich at the same time, atleast not without messing yourself  I'll make you work for it ?

Edited February 27, 2019 by Panthera

[Gambit21]

17 minutes ago, Panthera said:

 

In radius for sure, and I'd never advice anyone to engage in a prolonged turning fight with a prop fighter. Depending on entry speed you should in general refrain from attempting to follow a turn past the first 120 deg. Hence I was refering more to rate and not radius, as at the speeds where the Me262 would normally operate it could achieve quite an impressive turn rate, way above what the pilot could even tolerate, and the slats allow for that little extra lead you often find yourself needing when taking a shot at an evading prop job. The key is just to avoid turning with the target past the first 120 deg and never do hard maneuvers below ~450 km/h as you lose your acceleration advantage below this speed. Follow that advice and should you fail to attain proper lead the first time, well then you just level off and accelerate away out of reach only to come back in for another try. 

 

 

I get what you're saying, and I would ofcourse be lying if I claimed I had never run across a prop fighter in the Me262 that proved difficult to shoot down or in some cases even ended up shooting me down instead. My point though is that in general, assuming both pilots are experienced & aware of each other, the Me262 will prevail far more often than not vs a prop fighter, as that was overwhelmingly the case in my experience.

 

So yeah, you could very well end up getting the better of me during our jousting, esp. since I definitely wouldn't call myself an "ace" or "experten", but what I really want to prove to you though is that you wont be able to eat a sandwich at the same time, atleast not without messing yourself  I'll make you work for it ?

 

Well remember I just have to dodge for a few minutes.  I can go up empty! 

[Drawbar]

I was a IL-2 1946 mission designer on Warbirds of Prey server for a couple years.

 

The Me-262 just doesn't work well in online servers.

-In a dogfight oriented server it is impossible to balance (I hate that idea by the way, but today everyone wants to be equal).

-If you limit them they are used up in 15 minutes, everyone will be on the same side trying to fly them until they are gone.

-If you don't limit them everyone will be on the same side.

-They break easy, Boneheads who won't take the time to read up and learn to fly it offline will waste them

-They can't dogfight so they end up vulching or ground attacking.

-Guns are way to powerful, no one wants to spend 20 minutes in a bomber to get wiped out in one pass so no one flies bombers until the 262's are gone (huge problem with the under attack notifications when you have a 700k plane that can run anything down).

 

What ends up happening is they get the crap limited out of them, put at the very back of the map, and the fuel limited so they can't do much.

 

Unless we get some AI high level heavy bombers it's gonna be a "Gee this thing is really cool, too bad there isn't a good use for it" plane.

 

Edited February 28, 2019 by Drawbar

[Gambit21]

That post made me laugh...just thinking about online antics back in the day.

[=EXPEND=13SchwarzeHand]

The fear is strong in you

[Panthera]

16 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

 

Well remember I just have to dodge for a few minutes.  I can go up empty! 

 

Oh no, I wont let you RTB until the fight is over ? One of us aint coming home ?

[SYN_Haashashin]

Hi all,

 

Same as what happened with the other 262 topic. Get back on topic.

 

All off topic posts will be deleted from now on. Next one that simply ignore this post will be warned.

 

Haash

[JG7_RudeRaptor]

On 2/27/2019 at 4:36 PM, RAY-EU said:

Thanks to you Rude Raptor ! With your permissions very good YouTube Video .

& The day after Tomorrow …..

                        ME 262 A1b 

ME 262A1b was powerful armed 4x30mm , 2X250 SD Bombs & the 24 R4M 55mm Antitanks rockets!

This 30mm OOVOO should be more lethal than a 15 mm °°°v°°° machine  gun?

 

 

No problem sir . S!

[PatrickAWlson]

On 2/27/2019 at 10:12 PM, Drawbar said:

...

 

Unless we get some AI high level heavy bombers it's gonna be a "Gee this thing is really cool, too bad there isn't a good use for it" plane.

 

 

In single player they can be used for bomber intercept.  It will be A20s and B25s instead of B17s and B24s, but it should still be fun.  I will try to alter PWCG to have airfield patrols for the allies just to give 262 pilots something to think about.

[LukeFF]

On 2/27/2019 at 7:12 PM, Drawbar said:

Unless we get some AI high level heavy bombers it's gonna be a "Gee this thing is really cool, too bad there isn't a good use for it" plane.

 

That ignores the fact that 262s did intercept medium bomber formations.

[Gambit21]

29 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

 

That ignores the fact that 262s did intercept medium bomber formations.

 

Not to mention that for gameplay purposes a flight of B-25’s makes a decent stand-in for heavies.

[EAF19_Marsh]

1 hour ago, LukeFF said:

 

That ignores the fact that 262s did intercept medium bomber formations.

 

And for the purposes of BoBp was often used as a fighter-bomber by the units in the map area. In that sense, think of it as a very fast Mosquito with a few particular weaknesses and some specific strengths.

 

I think it will be smashing fun.

[7.GShAP/Silas]

I know that they shot down IL-2s, IL-10s and fighters on the eastern front.  Oh man, an eastern front edition of the BoBP timeframe....  That would be so sweet.  Battle of Budapest,  Battle of Bohemia...

Edited March 4, 2019 by 7.GShAP/Silas

[MiloMorai]

Galland mentions that he made a run on some B-26s but when he went to fire off his rockets he couldn't. Forgot to throw a switch.

[sevenless]

2 hours ago, 7.GShAP/Silas said:

I know that they shot down IL-2s, IL-10s and fighters on the eastern front.  Oh man, an eastern front edition of the BoBP timeframe....  That would be so sweet.  Battle of Budapest,  Battle of Bohemia...

 

Battle of the Vistula to Berlin would fit perfectly and would be great. Hope they´ll do it sometime in the future. Would be an instand buy for me. All the late war VSS stuff alone would make it worth it.

[Gambit21]

35 minutes ago, MiloMorai said:

Galland mentions that he made a run on some B-26s but when he went to fire off his rockets he couldn't. Forgot to throw a switch.

 

He forgot to map his “fire rockets” key...ha! What a loser amirite?

Edited March 5, 2019 by Gambit21

[BlitzPig_EL]

Galland = n00b!!

 

[Gambit21]

Probably flying around with Icons on too...what a dork.

[sevenless]

they might even have used aimbots...

 

https://theaviationgeekclub.com/b-26-vs-me-262-the-marauder-close-encounters-with-the-jets-flown-by-luftwaffes-experten/

[EAF19_Marsh]

4 hours ago, MiloMorai said:

Galland mentions that he made a run on some B-26s but when he went to fire off his rockets he couldn't. Forgot to throw a switch.

 

Random anecdote: Walter Dahl, RVL formation leader and possibly massive fibber, had a second safety switch on his 190 (See Caldwell books). A pilot borrowing it at the last minute for a scramble found that the guns did not work when he pressed the normal sequence of buttons. Only after he landed did the crew chief show him the moddification.

 

Not terribly relevant, but that always intrigued me. 

 

FalleEins blog does not like Dahl.

http://falkeeins.blogspot.com/2014/06/walter-dahl-defence-of-reich-jg-300-his.html?m=1

Edited March 5, 2019 by EAF19_Marsh

[LizLemon]

7 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

Probably flying around with Icons on too...what a dork.

 

Its well known that Galland had trim on a slider.

[ICDP]

On 2/27/2019 at 10:36 PM, RAY-EU said:

Thanks to you Rude Raptor ! With your permissions very good YouTube Video .

& The day after Tomorrow …..

                        ME 262 A1b 

ME 262A1b was powerful armed 4x30mm , 2X250 SD Bombs & the 24 R4M 55mm Antitanks rockets!

This 30mm OOVOO should be more lethal than a 15 mm °°°v°°° machine  gun?

 

Now I know why I never ever contemplated watching that movie or any other Holywood A list move to do with air combat.  Utterly laughable.

[Dogbert1953]

Being a newcomer to this game. Can i ask if they are adding the ME 262 and the Tempest.

 

Shouldn't there also be ai V1's, for the allied aircraft to engage.

 

Mike.

[CountZero]

34 minutes ago, Dogbert1953 said:

Being a newcomer to this game. Can i ask if they are adding the ME 262 and the Tempest.

 

Shouldn't there also be ai V1's, for the allied aircraft to engage.

 

Mike.

Me-262 should be added to game in few weeks or so as they said its one of next two airplanes to come in early acces.

Tempest will be added in game later this year from what they said.

for V1 no words about it

[Elem]

48 minutes ago, Dogbert1953 said:

Being a newcomer to this game. Can i ask if they are adding the ME 262 and the Tempest.

 

Shouldn't there also be ai V1's, for the allied aircraft to engage.

 

Mike.

They are for Battle of Bodenplatte. No V1's involved with that.

https://il2sturmovik.com/store/battle-of-bodenplatte/

[Dogbert1953]

The V1's were still being launched.

 

So surely they should be in the picture somewhere.

 

Yup i know the 262 and Tempest are for Bodenplatte thank you.

 

Mike.

[7.GShAP/Silas]

I would certainly hope that rocket complexes would be represented and that there would at least be static models for the rockets themselves.

[sevenless]

1 hour ago, 7.GShAP/Silas said:

I would certainly hope that rocket complexes would be represented and that there would at least be static models for the rockets themselves.

 

They have surprised us numerous times so far. Let´s see what they can come up with. AFAIK Belgium and especially Antwerp suffered badly under V1s and V2s from 10/44 on.

 

See here:  https://pieterserrien.be/english/the-terror-of-the-v1-and-v2-in-belgium/