ME 262

[69th_chuter]

In '46 the OP nightmare aircraft was the Komet.  Anyone remember that pesky little plane?

[MiloMorai]

On ‎3‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 9:04 AM, Wolfram-Harms said:

 

Yes, I know that. but jet engines are not rockets - they never make a smoke trail, Jumo 004 or not.

The "Komet" did make a smoke trail - because it was a rocket plane.

 

Actually it was a water vapour trail.

[PatrickAWlson]

20 hours ago, chuter said:

In '46 the OP nightmare aircraft was the Komet.  Anyone remember that pesky little plane?

 

Got to wait for it to run out of fuel.  Then you're targeting a glider.  Or just wait for it to spontaneously combust on its own

[69th_chuter]

3 hours ago, PatrickAWlson said:

 

Got to wait for it to run out of fuel.  Then you're targeting a glider.  Or just wait for it to spontaneously combust on its own

 

 

I was referring to IL-2 1946 the game - lol.  The Komet was utterly dominating.  The only thing that came close to equaling it was the Bi-1 but it would suddenly knuckle under in a Mach-tuck if you got too greedy for speed and so the Komet could power away in a dive and then zoom up to the satellites while the BI-1 would try to stay lower to avoid Mach.

[[DBS]Browning]

I never saw many Komets getting fighter kills however.

[II./SG.1-MarkWilhelmsson]

Full length automatic slats and constant thrust at almost all speeds (no parasitic drag increase as speed increases as with prop aircraft) allows the 262 to actually turn far better at high speeds than any other aircraft. 

[=EXPEND=CG_Justin]

On 4/4/2018 at 1:26 PM, chuter said:

In '46 the OP nightmare aircraft was the Komet.  Anyone remember that pesky little plane?

 

I loved flying it in '46! I literally felt invincible!

[BornToBattle]

Either way folks, it’ll be fun setting up quick combats to test out theories!

[EAF19_Marsh]

6 hours ago, 1/LG1-MarkWilhelmsson said:

Full length automatic slats and constant thrust at almost all speeds (no parasitic drag increase as speed increases as with prop aircraft) allows the 262 to actually turn far better at high speeds than any other aircraft. 

 

Drag increases by the square of the speed for a 262 as well so it will suffer a similar drag curve to everything else minus that of the prop. It also might offer a good turn rate at speed, but unless it pulls a lot of g then its radius will tend to be wider than opponents.

[=EXPEND=13SchwarzeHand]

On 4/2/2018 at 8:47 PM, Legioneod said:

Of course they should be in multiplayer. There will only be a few of them most likely and they have enough weaknesses to balance out their advantages.

 

I love how it’s the people that always point out the weaknesses are also the ones demanding that they should be limited ?

 

a server full of this sitting duck good for nothing plane should be your wet dream come true!!

Edited February 26, 2019 by =EXPEND=SchwarzeDreizehn

[EAF19_Marsh]

Quote

 

I love how it’s the people that always point out the weaknesses are also the ones demanding that they should be limited ?

 

a server full of this sitting duck good for nothing plane should be your wet dream come true!!

 

 

I think you misunderstand the concepts.

[=EXPEND=13SchwarzeHand]

6 hours ago, EAF19_Marsh said:

I think you misunderstand the concepts.

 

No, no I get you... ?

[=621=Samikatz]

Even if a plane is bad, if there weren't that many of them flying at one time I feel they should be limited. E.G, the Spitfire Vb is fairly outdated by Kuban as its a 1941 spec version (though still competitive enough to get guns on Lufties, for sure) but only one squadron operated the barely-triple-digits stock of them, so it should be limited

[Reggie_Mental]

I did a campaign on '46 with 'der schwalbe'

 

Can't remember what it was called but it might have been a retreat, 'From the Bug to the Oder'

 

72 kills in 13 sorties!

 

Mostly TU2s, Peshkas and IL2s, but a few fighters like La5s and Yak3s

 

An absolute killer plane. In one sortie I had the entire port engine nacelle shot off during a head on pass with an La5! Still carried on with one engine to knock down an IL2 and a Pe2 and return to base landing on just the starboard engine. Assymetric thrust is not as much of a problem as you might think, but its not easy either.

[CIA_Yankee_]

I'm definitely of the opinion that the 262 will be a major threat to the allies, and if allowed in large quantities could even be a decisive one.

 

There's a reason the Me262 was seen as such a threat. The only reason it didn't have a major impact in the war is because it came too late and the allies already had secured air supremacy (and worked hard to maintain it). This supremacy is not something we can simulate, at least not in a way that would be fun for LW pilots.

 

So in our servers, the Me262s will have the freedom to take off and land like we can now, and thus will be able to speed up and get into their zone of comfort (namely, super fast and high)... and from there they will be devastatingly effective in the hands of good pilots (that is, those who keep their speed up, focus on slashing attacks, and don't let themselves get low and slow).

 

I just hope our MP mission designers take that in mind and balance the scenarios properly... but the good news is: with the Me262 coming out soon, the fantasy servers (like KOTA) will no doubt add them in large quantities, and we'll finally be able to tell how effective they are. That should provide plenty of data for the mission designers to balance things properly once the BoBp map comes out.

[Voidhunger]

13 minutes ago, Reggie_Mental said:

Assymetric thrust is not as much of a problem as you might think, but its not easy either.

 

in the old game, not in reality

[Gambit21]

15 minutes ago, 71st_AH_Yankee_ said:

I'm definitely of the opinion that the 262 will be a major threat to the allies, and if allowed in large quantities could even be a decisive one.

 

There's a reason the Me262 was seen as such a threat. 

 

First - It’s threat was to the heavies which we don’t have.

 

Second - you have to be asleep to let yourself get shot down by a 262.  

 

 

[Panthera]

The biggest advantage of the Me262, aside from it's speed, is how well it will retain speed during maneuvers as compared to any propeller driven aircraft.  This is what makes the Me262 a dangerous air superiority fighter despite the fact that it couldn't turn as tightly (radius) as the propjobs. Instead it could however pull an impressive rate turn (deg/sec) and lose comparatively little speed in the process (providing the entry speed was high enough ofcourse), allowing it to gain a favorable position in a dogfight. Problem is that maneuvering at these higher speeds also means increased G forces, and in real life only experienced pilots will be able to perform under such forces - where'as  inexperienced pilots often would not even dare pull such G forces in the first place, and thus we see examples of  rookie 262 pilots making the crucial mistake of attempting to dogfight at a more comfortable speed (for the pilot) below 400-450 km/h where the propjobs had every advantage. Even for the seasoned pilots it would've no doubt taken some time getting used to the higher fighting speeds as it was after all the first ever fighter to regularly operate at such speed. 

 

9 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

Second - you have to be asleep to let yourself get shot down by a 262.  

 

Looking forward to proving how wrong that is ? But we already have a date on that

 

I won't ever forget how easy it was to catch even the most aware of people offguard in the Me262 back in IL46  The speed at which you can appear and disappear really is hard to guard against.

 

 

Edited February 26, 2019 by Panthera

[PatrickAWlson]

Did 262s ever do hunter patrols or were they always used for vectored intercepts?

 

[Gambit21]

262 vs Mustang etc is like an Oscar vs a Hellcat. (or better yet, P-38 vs Oscar)

 

If both pilots are on their toes neither can touch the other. One is far too maneuvable to worry, the other is much too fast to worry.

Someone makes a HUGE mistake then anything can happen.

 

Pretty simple equation really.

Edited February 26, 2019 by Gambit21

[=621=Samikatz]

42 minutes ago, Reggie_Mental said:

An absolute killer plane. In one sortie I had the entire port engine nacelle shot off during a head on pass with an La5! Still carried on with one engine to knock down an IL2 and a Pe2 and return to base landing on just the starboard engine. Assymetric thrust is not as much of a problem as you might think, but its not easy either.

 

Oleg's quality flight modelling strikes again

[Reggie_Mental]

34 minutes ago, Voidhunger said:

 

in the old game, not in reality

I think Eric 'Winkle' Brown flew a captured 262 in 1945 and he tested it's assymetric thrust and said he didn't find it impossible to control, but he was an exceptionally experienced pilot.

[PatrickAWlson]

12 minutes ago, Reggie_Mental said:

I think Eric 'Winkle' Brown flew a captured 262 in 1945 and he tested it's assymetric thrust and said he didn't find it impossible to control, but he was an exceptionally experienced pilot.

 

I have read plenty of stories of the 262 flying with one engine.  Does not seem to have presented too much of a problem.  In general a 262 pilot was going to be reasonably experienced.  Might be a bomber pilot and therefore not a great dogfighter, but still experienced and capable of handling a damaged plane.

 

[Gambit21]

21 minutes ago, Panthera said:

The biggest advantage of the Me262, aside from it's speed, is how well it will retain speed during maneuvers as compared to any propeller driven aircraft.  This is what makes the Me262 a dangerous air superiority fighter despite the fact that it couldn't turn as tightly (radius) as the propjobs. Instead it could however pull an impressive rate turn (deg/sec) and lose comparatively little speed in the process (providing the entry speed was high enough ofcourse), allowing it to gain a favorable position in a dogfight. Problem is that maneuvering at these higher speeds also means increased G forces, and in real life only experienced pilots will be able to perform under such forces - where'as  inexperienced pilots often would not even dare pull such G forces in the first place, and thus we see examples of  rookie 262 pilots making the crucial mistake of attempting to dogfight at a more comfortable speed (for the pilot) below 400-450 km/h where the propjobs had every advantage. Even for the seasoned pilots it would've no doubt taken some time getting used to the higher fighting speeds as it was after all the first ever fighter to regularly operate at such speed. 

 

 

Looking forward to proving how wrong that is ? But we already have a date on that

 

I won't ever forget how easy it was to catch even the most aware of people offguard in the Me262 back in IL46  The speed at which you can appear and disappear really is hard to guard against.

 

 

 

To be clear - we were never talking about being the “guy that I never saw”

I made that clear in our conversation before. Surprise tips the balance for any aircraft, not just the 262.

 

The 262 Just has a larger margin in this department.

 

I look forward however to our head to head duel so that you can prove you’re ability to shoot me down with a 262 “no matter how aware I am” 

Remeber I just have to stay away.

 

I think I can eat a sandwich and avoid your feeble attacks with ease - but we shall see.

Going to be a good time in any case.

 

Retaining energy will aid you in staying away from the Mustang or Spit...but doesn’t help you get your guns on him.

 

Ask the Oscar pilot who evaded a pair of P-38’s for 20 minutes until the 2 38’s gave up and went home.

 

That’s what I’m talking about.

I remember Beowulf making high speed passes and trying to shoot down my I16 until he ran out of ammo. I couldn’t touch him, but avoiding his attacks was very easy.

 

Same thing. 

[PatrickAWlson]

29 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

262 vs Mustang etc is like an Oscar vs a Hellcat. (or better yet, P-38 vs Oscar)

 

If both pilots are on their toes neither can touch the other. One is far too maneuvable to worry, the other is much too fast to worry.

Someone makes a HUGE mistake then anything can happen.

 

Pretty simple equation really.

 

Give me the Hellcat or P38 (or 262) any day.  I have read way too many accounts from very good pilots that were on occasion caught unaware.  I want to be in the plane that lets me take advantage of that moment.

 

I remember Saburo Sakai's account of being attacked by multiple Hellcats.  He escaped and certainly his skill played a major role.  However, he said about the fight (paraphrasing from memory so not an exact quote) "if only one of them led me I would be dead".  The Hellcats always tried to shoot him and none of them tried hosing the space in front of him and letting him fly into it.  Reverse the situation and the Hellcat pilot could just dive away from the Zeros.  

 

[DSR_A-24]

I'm more excited about the firepower of 4x30mm rather than the actual performance of the aircraft. This means there will be no follow up passes to guarantee a kill which is something all BNZ planes yearn for.

[Gambit21]

8 minutes ago, PatrickAWlson said:

 

Give me the Hellcat or P38 (or 262) any day.  I have read way too many accounts from very good pilots that were on occasion caught unaware.  I want to be in the plane that lets me take advantage of that moment.

 

I remember Saburo Sakai's account of being attacked by multiple Hellcats.  He escaped and certainly his skill played a major role.  However, he said about the fight (paraphrasing from memory so not an exact quote) "if only one of them led me I would be dead".  The Hellcats always tried to shoot him and none of them tried hosing the space in front of him and letting him fly into it.  Reverse the situation and the Hellcat pilot could just dive away from the Zeros.  

 

 

No doubt - give the aircraft that's untouchable due to speed any day.

The point is that the slower, massively more maneuverable aircraft so long as he's on his toes can be equally untouchable (if requiring much more attention and awareness on the part of the pilot)

 

Edited February 26, 2019 by Gambit21

[Ehret]

Just now, DSR_T-888 said:

I'm more excited about the firepower of 4x30mm rather than the actual performance of the aircraft. This means there will be no follow up passes to guarantee a kill which is something all BNZ planes yearn for.

 

I would not... check with the 190-A8 how much debris just two 108 generate. Now it's going to be much more and your closure speed much higher.

[=EXPEND=CG_Justin]

It's going to be fascinating to see if the Pe-2's AI gunners can hit something moving so fast.

 

My guess is, yes.

 

Foolhardy are they, who attack an aircraft with Jesus as the tail gunner.

 

I do however feel sorry for any Pe-2 (or any aircraft for that matter) that comes under the fire of the 4x 30mm. Whatever it hits will quickly become nothing but a memory.

[Kurfurst]

10 hours ago, PatrickAWlson said:

 

I have read plenty of stories of the 262 flying with one engine.  Does not seem to have presented too much of a problem.  In general a 262 pilot was going to be reasonably experienced.  Might be a bomber pilot and therefore not a great dogfighter, but still experienced and capable of handling a damaged plane.

 

 

The thing even had enough thrust to climb, albeit more slowly with only one engine.

 

Flight on one engine isnt that much of a thrust issue anyway, its more of a plane handling with slightly assymetric loads. Prop jobs did fly and land regulalry on one engine too, and there you also have to mind the propeller torque.

[EAF19_Marsh]

Quote

The thing even had enough thrust to climb, albeit more slowly with only one engine.

 

Of course it did, or it would be completely under-powered. However, 'more slowly' is a relative term: at take-off weight and slow speed, the loss of one engine would have been pretty serious given the characteristics of 1940s gas turbine technology - more so than for a contemporary piston-engined type in terms of raw power available (Meteor would have been no different).

 

Quote

Flight on one engine isnt that much of a thrust issue anyway, its more of a plane handling with slightly assymetric loads. Prop jobs did fly and land regulalry on one engine too, and there you also have to mind the propeller torque.

 

 

It is a problem because low-speed flight means that for a gas turbine the engine thrust is low : the spool-up and hence acceleration is also slow so an attempt to land on a single engine would be unforgiving of errors. It also has quite a high wing-loading and circuit speed.

 

Quote

Did 262s ever do hunter patrols or were they always used for vectored intercepts?

 

Vectored: too few in number, too precious, too maintenance-intensive all meant limitations on sortie generation, combined with limited loiter time once airborne.

[halowraith1]

itll be interesting to see whether the exhaust cone is animated. i have only seen that in one simulation before.

[Hawk-2a]

For me the most interesting thing will be if we‘re actually able to spot targets. Considering the higher speed in general in combination with a 10 km draw distance for aircraft, it‘ll be pretty hard to spot stuff...

[[DBS]Browning]

If there are two ME 262s approaching each other at top speed, they would pass each other 20 seconds after they pop into the 10km visual bubble.

 

Edited February 27, 2019 by [DBS]Browning

[CountZero]

3 hours ago, =BAIT=CG_Justin said:

It's going to be fascinating to see if the Pe-2's AI gunners can hit something moving so fast.

 

My guess is, yes.

 

Foolhardy are they, who attack an aircraft with Jesus as the tail gunner.

 

I do however feel sorry for any Pe-2 (or any aircraft for that matter) that comes under the fire of the 4x 30mm. Whatever it hits will quickly become nothing but a memory.

on what fantasy mission or server youll gona have pe-2 vs 262 ? maybe some will host it but youll only be fighting vs AI on vvs side then lol there is no 1944-45 vvs airplane in game to fight axis 1944-45 airplanes

[=EXPEND=CG_Justin]

1 minute ago, 77.CountZero said:

on what fantasy mission or server youll gona have pe-2 vs 262 ? maybe some will host it but youll only be fighting vs AI on vvs side then lol there is no 1944-45 vvs airplane in game to fight axis 1944-45 airplanes

 

So, you have inside information saying no one will host a mission like this? Even with our current lack 44-45 bombers? What else would you prefer stands in for the role until we the B-25? The U2 perhaps?

 

Until we get something else to shoot at, I'm certain it will be Pe-2's and A-20's. We literally HAVE NO OTHER OPTION.

[CountZero]

43 minutes ago, halowraith1 said:

itll be interesting to see whether the exhaust cone is animated. i have only seen that in one simulation before.

considering we have mixture smook added few months ago, i expect to have big smooky exost so you can easy see it from 10km away

4 minutes ago, =BAIT=CG_Justin said:

 

So, you have inside information saying no one will host a mission like this? Even with our current lack 44-45 bombers? What else would you prefer stands in for the role until we the B-25? The U2 perhaps?

 

Until we get something else to shoot at, I'm certain it will be Pe-2's and A-20's. We literally HAVE NO OTHER OPTION.

who needs bomber when you have p-47 that turns like zero and carys more bombs and rockets then any bomber in game.

Also i dont see any USAF or RAF skin in offical skins for Pe-2, so its not good stand in for sure, who would be crazy to use that on USAF/RAF vs Germ missions on BoBp map.

 

Edited February 27, 2019 by 77.CountZero

[=EXPEND=CG_Justin]

6 minutes ago, 77.CountZero said:

 

who needs bomber when you have p-47 that turns like zero and carys more bombs and rockets then any bomber in game.

Also i dont see any USAF or RAF skin in offical skins for Pe-2, so its not good stand in for sure, who would be crazy to use that on USAF/RAF vs Germ missions on BoBp map.

 

 

Considering we don't have the BoBP map yet, and until we do....literally everyone. Until we have the map, everything is going to be fantasy.

[CountZero]

Just now, =BAIT=CG_Justin said:

 

Considering we don't have the BoBP map yet, and until we do....literally everyone. Until we have the map, everything is going to be fantasy.

and who uses pe2 on thouse missions that are ment to be west front 44-45?

[=EXPEND=CG_Justin]

Just now, 77.CountZero said:

and who uses pe2 on thouse missions that are ment to be west front 44-45?

 

Who says they shouldn't?