ME 262

[Herne]

I was just watching this vid, which I thought was worth a share. Apparently the engine life was only 25 hours !!
 

 

[Ropalcz]

Yep, they had not enough resources for proper alloy which would withstand high temperatures. Lack of those crucial materials forced them to make those parts from steel, but steel was pretty bad for such use. Those circumstances lead to very short service life of Jumo 004.

[[APAF]VR_Spartan85]

Yikes! 25 hours...That’s insane!?  

“Ok we’re doing a run up, start the clock...”

Edited March 7, 2018 by spartan85

[RAY-EU]

The ME 262 start a new era of the aviation , it was a superior weapon ... With a lot of potential .

 

Edited March 7, 2018 by RAY-EU

[MiloMorai]

The turbine blades were hollow.

 

25 hours was the average time. Have seen 10 hours stated.

[Herne]

2 minutes ago, MiloMorai said:

The turbine blades were hollow.

 

25 hours was the average time. Have seen 10 hours stated.

 

Yes he mentioned in the video that he spoke to Galland ? after the war who said something about them only lasting 12.5 hours on average.

[Ehret]

2 hours ago, spartan85 said:

Yikes! 25 hours...That’s insane!?  

“Ok we’re doing a run up, start the clock...”

 

Could be matching life expectancy flying sorties...

 

 

[Wolfram-Harms]

The aircraft was getting produced, when German industrial supplies were already quite limited;

so the late war aircraft could not be produced under conditions comparable to the USA or Britain.

Also, it was a completely new technology, with all it's teething troubles.

 

Galland was amazed about the flying feeling; he said "It is as if angels were pushing!"

And with four Rheinmetall Mk-108 machine cannons 30mm they needed only a few hits even on

large structures like Liberators, to kill engines or make whole wings come off.

 

But the craft had it's weak spots. The jet flame might interrupt during a quick change of throttle,

and then the jet engine had to be re-ignited. At take-off and landings, they had to operate with care

for such reasons, and the Allies knew that and attacked them near their airfields, when they came in

slowly and were like "sitting ducks". They had to be shielded by Focke-Wulf 109 D fighters.

That could only happen, because air superiority was already mostly lost for the Luftwaffe.

 

Hitler's decision to use the craft mostly as a small bomber forfait even more chances.

But anyway - overall the craft came too late and in too small numbers to change anything.

 

Here are two videos showing the craft in flight and in detail.

No idea who those guys are in German uniforms, in the second video. I guess that was filmed in the USA?

It would be pretty much unthinkable in Germany.

The first video though was made by the German MESSERSCHMITT STIFTUNG.

 

 

 

Edited March 7, 2018 by Wolfram-Harms
More material added.

[[TWB]Sauerkraut-]

Ah, the 262. 

I have a feeling that a lot of people who are new to the sim genre (let's face it, this is probably the most popular sim for new sim players), and haven't gotten into full on history buff mode, will probably have very disappointing experience w/ the 262. I'd be prepared to see a lot of complaining about it on steam once Bodenplatte goes live.

 

In terms of performance, early jets were typically worse than late war designed propeller aircraft in every respect other than climb, top speed, and energy retention (when not turning hard). Even in the climb department, they would only have matched the performance of a late prop. They are heavier, so wouldn't be as maneuverable (why would you want to maneuver anyway) but as a result are better at zoom climbing out of a dive. They also have the obvious advantage of much higher top speed. That's where the advantages stop.

 

Most of the problems with early jet fighters stem from their engines. As already discussed, the 004 had a TERRIBLE service life. But in a more general sense, early get engines, for one thing, do not respond well to ANY damage whatsoever. Besides this, they respond very slowly to throttle changes, had overheating problems, and produced quite low thrust at low speeds. The practical upshot of this is that most props will out accelerate you if you let your speed get too low. One problem in particular with the 262 is that it has 2 engines. This is good for redundancy, but if a pilot let themselves get too slow on one engine, the asymmetrical lateral thrust would cause them some SERIOUS problems.

 

All in all, I look forward to flying the 262, but I'm under no illusion that it will be better than, for example, the D-9 or LF Mk. IX.

[Finkeren]

I do wonder if the jet engines will leave a visible trail of smoke like in IL-2-1946? If that's the case, the 262 will be a death trap in online scenarios, since 9 out of 10 times it will be spotted by its opponent well before the German pilot can spot the opponent, giving the Allied pilot a huge tactical advantage. 

[Gambit21]

29 minutes ago, itsthatguy said:

In terms of performance, early jets were typically worse than late war designed propeller aircraft in every respect other than climb, top speed, and energy retention

 

 

...to be fair, those things go a long ways, and it packs a punch as well.

If flown smart you'll be untouchable unless you get caught landing or taking off.

 

The flip side is that a fighter who's aware of you can dodge your attacks all day...gotta be sneaky and good at lining up that shot.

I could never shoot with it for crap in the old sim, but I liked flying it now and then anyway.

[Panthera]

36 minutes ago, Finkeren said:

I do wonder if the jet engines will leave a visible trail of smoke like in IL-2-1946? If that's the case, the 262 will be a death trap in online scenarios, since 9 out of 10 times it will be spotted by its opponent well before the German pilot can spot the opponent, giving the Allied pilot a huge tactical advantage. 

 

Yet in IL-2 '46 it wrecked so much havoc regardless that it was banned from most servers, hmmm..... 

[Gambit21]

....seeing you and being able to do anything about it are two different things.

[Finkeren]

1 minute ago, Panthera said:

 

Yet in IL-2 '46 it wrecked so much havoc regardless that it was banned from most servers, hmmm..... 

 

Spotting was a good deal easier in ‘46 though.

[Panthera]

10 hours ago, =FEW=Herne said:

I was just watching this vid, which I thought was worth a share. Apparently the engine life was only 25 hours !!
 

 

 

Nearing the end they got it up to 50 hours between overhauls, but it couldn't get much better considering the lack of proper metals, lubricants and in the end spare parts even. 

 

 

[Finkeren]

1 minute ago, Gambit21 said:

....seeing you and being able to do anything about it are two different things.

 

Personally I’d gladly trade a performance edge for the ability to nearly always spot my opponent first.

[Panthera]

Just now, Finkeren said:

 

Spotting was a good deal easier in ‘46 though.

 

Well I honestly have no problems spotting in this game, so I don't figure it will be any different. 

 

As for wether it should actually produce any smoke, I haven't seen any evidence that it did yet. 

[Gambit21]

Just now, Finkeren said:

 

Personally I’d gladly trade a performance edge for the ability to nearly always spot my opponent first.

 

Sure...but at the rate it closes I don't think jumping allied aircraft unawares is going to be an issue.

Hard to see a smoke trail that's behind you, I know that wouldn't be my issue, and it wasn't in the old days.

My issue was that I couldn't shoot with it!

[Finkeren]

1 minute ago, Panthera said:

 

As for wether it should actually produce any smoke, I haven't seen any evidence that it did yet. 

 

I don’t know that it should do that either.

[Finkeren]

1 minute ago, Gambit21 said:

 

Sure...but at the rate it closes I don't think jumping allied aircraft unawares is going to be an issue.

 

The 262 is not going to be flying at 800 km/h in every situation. During climb it is going to be extremely vulnerable to getting bounced from above, and if it is trailing smoke, spotting it against the ground will be very easy.

[Gambit21]

Just now, Finkeren said:

 

The 262 is not going to be flying at 800 km/h in every situation. During climb it is going to be extremely vulnerable to getting bounced from above, and if it is trailing smoke, spotting it against the ground will be very easy.

 

Of course.

[Panthera]

Climbing speed of the Me262 is in the order of 450-500 km/h, so most of the time the Me262 will be going quite fast. Esp. when you consider how quickly it can accelerate from that speed and up as compared to any prop fighter. 

 

All in all I think people are going to get a shock at how deadly this aircraft will be.

[Livai]

I love the Engine Overheating Myths across the internet - Fact is the Engine materials suffer under heat aging because the materials what the Germans used weren't heat resistance.  The only problem what the Engine had during Operation Bodenplatte.

 

Flying a perfect - working Engine without heat resistance materials is to stay below a certain temperature to keep their life-time high as possible and not to blow-up it within seconds going above this certain temperature...................

 

 

[Wolfram-Harms]

14 hours ago, Finkeren said:

I do wonder if the jet engines will leave a visible trail of smoke like in IL-2-1946?

 

No, they won't. They'd only make a vapour trail at higher altitude - but that's also made by prop-driven aircraft.

Here is how it looks in flight:

 

 

[Panthera]

The engines in the Me262 were generally kept at full throttle for most of the time, the final 50 hour overhaul time was achieved with this.

[Panthera]

3 minutes ago, Wolfram-Harms said:

 

No, they won't. They'd only make a vapour trail at higher altitude - but that's also made by prop-driven aircraft.

Here is how it looks in flight:

 

 

 

While I agree that the Jumo 004's don't seem to have produced any smoke during flight (all footage I've seen of it has it leaving no trail), the above is a rather poor example as it is not flying with Jumo 004 engines but instead a pair of GE CJ610's .

Edited March 8, 2018 by Panthera

[Wolfram-Harms]

13 hours ago, Panthera said:

All in all I think people are going to get a shock at how deadly this aircraft will be.

 

Deadly against bombers - yes.

But due to it's huge speed, the Me 262 cannot turn-fight very well.

So a Mustang or other prop fighter would have great chances to evade any attacks from Me 262s.

The jet would be so fast, that it could only make a boom&zoom attack.

It might catch a prop fighter by surprise, but once the Allied pilot is aware of it, the chances to kill

the Allied craft would be slim, I guess.

 

[Wolfram-Harms]

1 minute ago, Panthera said:

...the above is a rather poor example as it is not flying with Jumo 004 engines but instead a pair of GE CJ610's .

 

Yes, I know that. but jet engines are not rockets - they never make a smoke trail, Jumo 004 or not.

The "Komet" did make a smoke trail - because it was a rocket plane.

Edited March 8, 2018 by Wolfram-Harms

[Panthera]

Just now, Wolfram-Harms said:

 

Deadly against bombers - yes.

But due to it's huge speed, the Me 262 cannot turn-fight very well.

So a Mustang or other prop fighter would have great chances to evade any attacks from Me 262s.

The jet would be so fast, that it could only make a boom&zoom attack.

It might catch a prop fighter by surprise, but once the Allied pilot is aware of it, the chances to kill

the Allied craft would be slim, I guess.

 

 

Well that wasn't my experience flying it in IL2 '46, esp. since the slats allow you to pull some steep angles. The massive advantage in speed also means you can extend quickly to come in for another attack. As a result the Me262 wrecked absolute havoc on the servers before it was banned from most of them.

[BlitzPig_EL]

Yup the modern reproductions use modern engines, that are more reliable by far, and more powerful than the 004 as well, hence the modern 262s have a very strict VnE.

 

Oh, so jets don't leave smoke trails?

 

 

The F4 Phantom is also notorious for smoky exhaust.

 

 

Edited March 8, 2018 by BlitzPig_EL

[Panthera]

6 minutes ago, Wolfram-Harms said:

 

Yes, I know that. but jet engines are not rockets - they never make a smoke trail, Jumo 004 or not.

The "Komet" did make a smoke trail - because it was a rocket plane.

 

Not true, American post war jets for example were for a very long time known to produce a black smoke trail behind them, the main reason being the rather unclean fuel they used. It was a cause for complaint both in Korea and Vietnam where whilst US jets would leave a thin trail of black smoke behind them Russian jets left no such visible trail. For the "North Korean" pilots it turned out to be an effective means of ID'ing friend from foe.

 

EDIT: Beat me to it Blitzkrieg, the above is pretty conclusive example

 

Edited March 8, 2018 by Panthera

[Wolfram-Harms]

No idea what you Americans burnt in your jet engines - Diesel? Heating oil? Cod liver oil?? German jets don't smoke like that.

 

 

 

Edited March 8, 2018 by Wolfram-Harms

[CrazyDuck]

We have to consider the camera angle as well. That B-52 is filmed almost directly from behind, looing "through" exhaust at a very narrow angle - it's normal that smoke appears thicker this way. Have we been looking through the same exhaust perpendicularly, it would appear a lot more transparent.

 

Viewing angle (and consequently the distance that light has to travel through the medium) is cruical when observing transparency of the medium.

[Ghost666]

4 minutes ago, Wolfram-Harms said:

No idea what you Americans burnt in your jet engines - Diesel? Heating oil? Cod liver oil?? German jets don't smoke like that.

 

 

 

Used cooking oil from MC Donalds

[Livai]

51 minutes ago, Panthera said:

American post war jets for example were for a very long time known to produce a black smoke trail behind them, the main reason being the rather unclean fuel they used.

 

That black smoke trail is caused -> usually from unburnt or partially burnt fuel (or by water injection).  Another reason for the smoke is inefficient combustion

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

16 hours ago, Finkeren said:

I do wonder if the jet engines will leave a visible trail of smoke like in IL-2-1946? If that's the case, the 262 will be a death trap in online scenarios, since 9 out of 10 times it will be spotted by its opponent well before the German pilot can spot the opponent, giving the Allied pilot a huge tactical advantage. 

 

In IL-2 1946 they left a smoke trail when the engines were run above 95% throttle, less than that and they didn't smoke. It also had a blue flame above 85% or so which looked kinda like a little afterburner...

 

[wtornado]

In 1946 you would dive down from high altitude and spot some planes and set up your line of attack

and blast them with the cannons and give the bird full power and go back up and there was nothing

anyone could do about it online.

 

They were not banned for nothing 

[[N.O.G.F]_Cathal_Brugha]

Here are some situations the ME 262 could be in. These are generalizations and exact tactical situations are many, this is just to give an idea about using the ME 262.

 Dogfight 

ME 262s high speed will allow fast attacks, and make it difficult to catch. Aware enemies will dodge its attack. It was after all designed as a heavy bomber attacker. 

Bomber Attack

ME 262s high speed will allow it to engage bombers quickly, four 30mm cannons will shred the bombers, and it's high speed will carry it to safety from the escorting fighters. Success!

Defending against Fighter Bombers

Allied fighter bombers will need to jettison their bombs to effectively dodge the ME 262s attack. ME 262 mission Success without even needing to fire (Bombs did not reach target) 

Speed is life, and the ME 262 is fast.

Success in the mission was not how many fighters it could shoot down, but weather it disrupted or halted the enemies mission. 

 

 

[Livai]

Flight-tests in 1945 with a captured 262, no black smoke behind the engines...........

 

 

[=362nd_FS=RoflSeal]

Jet engines don't smo-

 

Edited March 8, 2018 by RoflSeal