Take offs and landings should not be that easy.

[SCG_motoadve]

Wish they make it more realistic, even make it optional if it needs to be only for those who enjoy realism.

The other day I took off in a 109 without touching the rudder pedals, its a 1000 plus HP tail dragger and meant to be a tricky one to land or take off.

I know the landings and take offs were very difficult in the past in IL2 BOS (Never tried them) more difficult does not mean realistic though.

But for sure we should not be able to take off without touching the rudder pedals.

Landings are a pretty exciting part of flying, in IL2 BOS there is no reward, they are super easy.

Its a combat sim, but since everything is moving for more realism, that would be nice.

[Feathered_IV]

It is probably worth mentioning belly landings as well.   These are extraordinarily easy too.    

[Mitthrawnuruodo]

In my experience, takeoffs without any pedal movement are uncommon. What exactly do you want changed? More moment or torque?

In certain aircraft, it's already quite tricky. Yes, takeoffs and landings aren't entirely realistic, but I've seen very few combat sims do better.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Not sure what German voodoo you are using but that is atypical for this sim. P factor is definitely modeled and I have to stand on my right pedal (no curves) to get the Messer aloft.

[Mitthrawnuruodo]

4 minutes ago, Feathered_IV said:

It is probably worth mentioning belly landings as well.   These are extraordinarily easy too.  

You can't properly simulate belly landings without soft-body dynamics. 

Implementing this would waste CPU and developer time. Besides, the exact outcome of a belly landing rarely matters in the context of this sim.

[JimTM]

If you are flying offline, check the settings in your "Realism" screen, available before you choose a mission. You may have "Rudder assist" checked (or perhaps "Simplified controls" or "Simplified physics" ).  If you are flying online, the server that you are flying in may have the options just mentioned enabled.

Edited March 3, 2018 by JimTM

[Ribbon]

Takeoffs seems pretty realistic to me, only thing that can be improved regarding realism is modeled hard landings and damage associated to it.

BUT i'm no pilot or landed real plane ever so i would like to hear what our RL pilots think about it.

[SCG_motoadve]

Real pilot here, nose gear and tail draggers, have not flown a warbird (Yet   ) and I fly ofetn and in very challenging enviroments, so get to feel the airplane a lot.

The ground modelling is very simple, landings you can do a terrible one that bounces your plane back in the air pretty high, then bounces back and straightens , like nothing.

The torque is modeled but not to those big engines torque amount, it should pull a lot more, so you need to apply power smoothly or else you groundloop.

Yes compared even to the civilian sims the IL BOS FM and ground modelling is a lot better, DCS might have better ground modelling though.

[dhillr]

Haven't flown 109 for a couple of months now but the rudder control was essential when I flew 109 before.  You may want to try MiG-3 in full realism setting and see if it still feels unrealistic for you.

[Bilbo_Baggins]

There has to be something not right here. Are you on single player? Perhaps you have the rudder assistance on in difficulty options? 

Go onto Wings of Liberty server and I guarantee you will need strong rudder deflection to keep the ME109 from swinging hard left.

[SCG_motoadve]

I have no assist , expert mode in Single player, and I fly WOL, Coconuts etc.

There is torque yes, but definitely not enough to make a challenge out of taking off in a 1000HP plus tail dragger.

You can take off putting almost instant full power and rudder and it wont ground loop.

Its modeled but dumbed down.

[Field-Ops]

Try it without the tailwheel locked and see if thats the effect you desire 

[1_Robert_]

As a real life pilot who has never flown anything close to resembling a fighter, and therefore not a great authority on the subject, my personal feeling is it isn’t all that bad. Remember we’re not strapped into a real bird, handling a real stick and pedals connected to the real control surfaces. Not being able to feel and hear realistically has to be taken into consideration. 

As for rudder on takeoff, I believe you must have easy settings on as you can’t takeoff in a 109 without right rudder. The only discrepancy I’d state is I’ve read real life 109 pilots claim they needed FULL right rudder on takeoff, certainly not the case in BOx. 

[69th_chuter]

One thing that has killed a few civilian Mustang pilots is precession.  They got the plane rolling for takeoff at up to 55 inches (the green and blue gas limit) and then raised the tail as soon as the had reasonable elevator authority while holding full right rudder.  With the pitch forward the prop precession forced the nose left but they were already full right rudder ...

[Hoots]

5 hours ago, motoadve said:

Wish they make it more realistic, even make it optional if it needs to be only for those who enjoy realism.

The other day I took off in a 109 without touching the rudder pedals, its a 1000 plus HP tail dragger and meant to be a tricky one to land or take off.

I know the landings and take offs were very difficult in the past in IL2 BOS (Never tried them) more difficult does not mean realistic though.

But for sure we should not be able to take off without touching the rudder pedals.

Landings are a pretty exciting part of flying, in IL2 BOS there is no reward, they are super easy.

Its a combat sim, but since everything is moving for more realism, that would be nice.

Are you sure you haven't got any aids on? I can't recall taking off in any aircraft without having to use rudder, often a lot of it too.

[sinned]

How can u takeoff in 109 without rudder?  

 

OP sounds like a big exaggerated rodent. 

[ZachariasX]

With regards to the OP, I‘m also sure that some control aids must have been on.

And a note regarding the take off with taildraggers, in normal circumstances I would not expect it to require full rudder ALL THE TIME during take off. This would imply that you have ZERO cross wind tolerance. This would be a no-go for any operational a/c.

What you need however are occasional quick and strong rudder deflections to keep the nose from veering off the center line on the initial part of the run. If you fail to do so, even in weaker powered aircraft you can expect you leaving the runway even with then constant full deflection.

Looking at Kermit Weeks videos him taking off with the Mustang, you can see him making corrections, but overall he depresses the pedal not so much.

 

Also you should know that on the initial run, a real tail dragger has very, very litte rudder authority until the tail comes up, and when its up then it strats to work as it does in flight.

Thus the concept „powerful tail draggers need constant full rudder input for take off“ is wrong on many levels. Intitially, the pedals do almost nothing and you‘re happy in in more luxurious planes to have differential brakes to stay straight (and if you decide to also flutter the rudder, you make coarse moves, else you might as well not do it). As soon as the tail is coming up a crossover from brake efficiency to rudder efficiency takes place. But by no means you will require full rudder to hold the plane. If you do and come back alive, go and see your flight instructor.

[Guest deleted@50488]

Well, the 109s are certainly in this sim probably those requiring more rudder input to counter the "various torques" that can plague a taildragger takeoff.

OTOH, I would expect that taking off with the tailwheel unlocked shouldn't probably be as easy as it is. In IL2 BoX the tail surfaces become alive and are effective at a higher rate than I would suppose they would. Also, I would expect that in the absence of any x-winds, permanent right rudder or toe brake input shouldn't be required to taxi along straight ahead, at low / taxi power settings. 

OTOH, for instance the Spitfire requires a lot less right rudder than I would expect on takeoff and initial climb away, at normal 8 or 12 boost takeoff power. Looking at NACA charts for flight tests reveals a good deal of right rudder being used. In our Vb we can take the feet off the rudder as we go above 120 mph aprox.

[rolikiraly]

About the landing: i agree that it feels like you can land very 'hard' and still remain in one piece.

Pulling off a really smooth and beautiful landing is probably not that easy, at least for newer pilots who also don't have RL flying experience.

[6./ZG26_Loke]

10 hours ago, motoadve said:

Wish they make it more realistic, even make it optional if it needs to be only for those who enjoy realism.

The other day I took off in a 109 without touching the rudder pedals, its a 1000 plus HP tail dragger and meant to be a tricky one to land or take off.

I know the landings and take offs were very difficult in the past in IL2 BOS (Never tried them) more difficult does not mean realistic though.

But for sure we should not be able to take off without touching the rudder pedals.

Landings are a pretty exciting part of flying, in IL2 BOS there is no reward, they are super easy.

Its a combat sim, but since everything is moving for more realism, that would be nice.

You must have been in vanila settings, as I have to use a lot of rudder to keep it on track. 

[SJ_Butcher]

BS, connect into online and you will see a lot of people breaking their aircraft in take off

[Yogiflight]

As motoadve stated, he was flying in expert mode, I would think, it is a bug, like I have it with the FW190 since a few weeks. Whenever I start flying the 190 after having flown another aircraft before, the locking of the tailwheel by pulling back the stick completely, doesn't work. When starting the takeoff run my aircraft starts going to the left and I need a lot of rudder to get it back to the correct direction. When I start the next time, everything works like it should. So if motoadve is able to start the 109 without rudder, it might be a game issue.

[303_Bies]

I can agree with one: torque  is dumbed down significantly in compare with real aircraft. It is for sure conscious  decision of developers, but why they decided to do like that? I don't know. 

 

Probably one of two:

 - current game engine can't cope with realistic amount of torque and it causes some additional problems

 

 - they decided realistic torque will be too difficult to manage for inexperienced players and it would cause a lot of frustration during landings

 

The situation we have right now is some form of compromise, the torque in the game is modeled as about 50% of real torque.

 

(The amount of force landing gear can absorb looks also far too big. You can jump in the air after touchdown and strike again falling from 20-30 meters without consequences.)

Edited March 3, 2018 by bies

[Trooper117]

I use expert mode... I always have to have quite a bit of rudder input on take off.

[Yogiflight]

Wasn't there a change in ground modelling after a lot of players had issues with taking off in the Mig3 and La5 some time ago?

[curiousGamblerr]

Sure, an experienced pilot can pretty much throw themselves at the ground going 250kph and generally still manage to get the bird down, but there's still plenty of personal challenge to be had if you try for a really beautiful, professional landing.

 

Slowing down just right as you proceed through your pattern and holding that perfect approach speed and angle on final are plenty rewarding and make landing pretty much my favorite part of the game in many ways.

[Wolfram-Harms]

I fly mostly the Bf 109 verions, and with "full expert" settings, I have to balance quite a bit with the rudder.

 

[Ribbon]

Good thing modeled is if you ground loop plane with higher speed, high amount of force is produced on landing gear and it snaps on it's weakest point, sideways.

[MeoW.Scharfi]

Bad Airfield conditions would be awesome! Especially on raining weather. Then planes with bigger wheels like Bf 109 G4 would make even more sense!

 

 

[SCG_motoadve]

Just took off again without touching the rudders in a 109G2, slowly and smoothly applying the power.

Expert mode.

From an aerodrome not runway by the way.

I have the track file , recorded a video, dont know how to post a track  in Youtube though, so if anyone wants to see I I can send it.

[BlitzPig_EL]

Something is wonky here.

 

I need to use rudder to counter torque in every plane in the sim that I have flown.

 

Very odd.

[SCG_motoadve]

Go try it whoever does not believe me.

109 G2 20 degrees of flaps, aerodrome (not runway)

Apply power very smoothly, give some right aileron once you get speed and more power, and it will fly.

Will try to post the track somehow.

[wtornado]

I have to use full rudder or I end up on top of an ack ack gun or building.

Edited March 3, 2018 by SCG_wtornado
Damn auto correct

[Vig]

They are hard enough for me, thanks.

[Jade_Monkey]

I would definitely not be able to take off without rudder input in a 109.

Something doesn't add up.

People have different settings, input sensitivity etc, so it's hard to assess what's wrong here.

[Pupo]

Harder != Realistic.

 

We always get factory fresh planes in this game. Rough landings will not necessarily cause a catastrophic failure now, but rather  severely reduce the number of cycles the landing gear will be able to go through. Unfortunately, as with the engines, this cannot be modeled in the sim  properly until we can get some way to create persistent planes with "wear and tear".

 

Regarding taking off without rudder input in the 109, I can't do it. The thing just goes into a circle until I hit the dirt.

Edited March 3, 2018 by Pupo

[9./JG27golani79]

14 minutes ago, motoadve said:

Go try it whoever does not believe me.

109 G2 20 degrees of flaps, aerodrome (not runway)

Apply power very smoothly, give some right aileron once you get speed and more power, and it will fly.

Will try to post the track somehow.

 

Just tried it out with every 109 in the game - no chance I could take off without rudder input.

Gotta be a bug or you´ve overlooked some settings.

[Ribbon]

He's using field airfield so he doesn't takeoff straight, he also use flaps which helps directional stability by it's drag and slowly adding throttle building enough airflow over the vertical stabilizer to not ground loop.

I believe him!

[ZachariasX]

2 hours ago, bies said:

I can agree with one: torque  is dumbed down significantly in compare with real aircraft. It is for sure conscious  decision of developers, but why they decided to do like that? I don't know. 

I don't think that torque is "dumbed down". What we have is excessive rudeer control at very low speeds in the initial phase of the take off run. Same goes for landing once the tail comes down.

 

But I guess it is a good choice like that. It makes things a bit more accessible while not beeing wrong "in principle".

[SCG_motoadve]

 

Look at the pedals, not a single movement, outside view look at the rudder, straight.

 

Edited March 3, 2018 by motoadve