Gunsight Tick Marks

[fiddlinjim]

Does anyone know the  values for the angle-off tick marks on the gunsight and also the ring value for the German and Russian Planes?

The Spitfire gunsight is easily adjusted and I doubt the values for the German and Russian planes change for their separate models. 

[ACG_pezman]

This has been talked about before in these forums, so there is more accurate information out there.

 

However I’ll save you the search and give you what I understand the values to be (and I’m not the best marksman):

German, U.S., R.A.F. and Italian:  Ring Size = 100mils

Russian:  Ring Size = around 91mils

Tick Marks  -

German, U.S., R.A.F.:  10 mils per tick mark (U.S. when equipped w/ gunsight with tick marks - not the P-40E)

Russian:  9 mils per tick mark

Italian:  No clue... no tick marks

 

Like I said, this is what I understand it to be but I big suck at A2A gunnery and it has been a long time since I looked it up.  Also the Russian PB-1 reflector sight seems to be difficult to find info on in English. 

[LukeFF]

Italian gunsight:

10 mils one line

65 mils small ring radius

100 mils large ring radius

Soviet gunsight: 

Edited March 2, 2018 by LukeFF

[LukeFF]

55 minutes ago, 19//p3zman said:

German, U.S., R.A.F. and Italian:  Ring Size = 100mils

The US gunsight is 70 mils.

[Requiem]

The US sight in the P-40 is the N-3A which is 70 mil diameter

The Revi is 100 mil diameter, each tick mark is 6 degrees which is 17.8 mil

 

Edited March 3, 2018 by SYN_Requiem
spelling

[ACG_pezman]

This is why I suck at gunnery.  This whole time I thought it was 100mils

[[APAF]VR_Spartan85]

Lol I don’t even know how to use the mild. I just line up and shoot... done pretty good with it to..

 

how owe do you use the mils?

[LukeFF]

22 minutes ago, spartan85 said:

how owe do you use the mils?

 

They function as a rangefinder. Some examples, using a 10-meter wingspan, which is the wingspan of most fighter planes in the game:

 

With a 100-mil gunsight, when the plane fills the entire gunsight, the plane is 100 meters away (10 meter wingspan / 100 mils * 1000 = 100). When half the plane fills the gunsight, it is 200 meters away.  When it fills 1/3 of the gunsight, it's 300 meters away. That's why so many gunsights were 100 mils - it was very easy to estimate range with that number.

 

With an 80-mil gunsight (the diameter of the tick marks on the Soviet sight), the plane would be 125 meters away. When the plane fills 40 mils, it's 250 meters away.

 

[SCG_Tzigy]

Luke, think u r wrong for the Italian San Giorgio tipo B is:

 

120 mil inner ring diameter,  28 mils between dots.  Outer ring 236 

 

[LukeFF]

1 hour ago, SCG_Tzigy said:

Luke, think you are wrong for the Italian San Giorgio tipo B is:

 

120 mil inner ring diameter,  28 mils between dots.  Outer ring 236 

 

 

You're right - I was copying old info.

[Wad]

On ‎04‎.‎03‎.‎2018 at 9:50 AM, SCG_Tzigy said:

Luke, think u r wrong for the Italian San Giorgio tipo B is:

 

120 mil inner ring diameter,  28 mils between dots.  Outer ring 236 

 

Sorry, but you are wrong for the S.Giorgio Type B too.

This data (118 mils outer ring radius) is about "Type A". This ring is correct for a target plane traveling 360 km/h at full deflection (see manual).

But "Type B" is equipped with 400 km/h (111 m/sec) outer ring (see manual).

So, the 400-km/h ring measures 111 * (250 / (750 + 111)) /250 = 129 mils in radius.

[SCG_Tzigy]

Great!!!!! Thx

[Alexmarine]

7 hours ago, Wad said:

Sorry, but you are wrong for the S.Giorgio Type B too.

This data (118 mils outer ring radius) is about "Type A". This ring is correct for a target plane traveling 360 km/h at full deflection (see manual).

But "Type B" is equipped with 400 km/h (111 m/sec) outer ring (see manual).

So, the 400-km/h ring measures 111 * (250 / (750 + 111)) /250 = 129 mils in radius.

Did you find them online? I would like to give the Type B a little reading as I have already the MC.202 manual and I never managed to understand the gunsight ... ?

[LukeFF]

@Wad, good info thanks! So, does BoS model the outer ring correctly?

[Wad]

1 hour ago, Alexmarine28 said:

Did you find them online? I would like to give the Type B a little reading as I have already the MC.202 manual and I never managed to understand the gunsight ... ?

I'v never seen this manual online but you can buy this copy on eBay.

[Wad]

1 hour ago, LukeFF said:

@Wad, good info thanks! So, does BoS model the outer ring correctly?

 

There is 360-km/h ring (118 mils) now (two I-16 are arrange at a distance 100 м each other and at a distance 1000 m from gunnery's eye = 100 mils).

So, this is "Type A" reticle, not "B".

 

 

Edited March 7, 2018 by Wad

[-SF-Disarray]

On 3/3/2018 at 8:30 PM, spartan85 said:

Lol I don’t even know how to use the mild. I just line up and shoot... done pretty good with it to..

 

how owe do you use the mils?

 

As was said you can use the mil marks for range finding, but you can also use them for lead calculation for deflection shooting. It is a bit quick and dirty in actual combat but the theory is thus: determine the angle off, that is the difference in degrees from your course and the target course. For example if you are sitting close on your target's 4 o'clock you are at roughly 20 deg angle off; there are charts out there than can help you develop a feel for this estimation more quickly and accurately. Once you know your angle off you can start applying the mil marks. At 20 deg angle off if you place your target at the 50 mil mark you should land hits. In our earlier example of a 4 o'clock position on target you would use the 50 mil mark on the left side of the sight and also add mils on the vertical line based on your vertical angle off. For every 10 deg up or down add or subtract 25 mils as appropriate. Naturally if you are using a gun with a low velocity round these values may change a bit, say with some of the 37 mm guns or the pumpkin lobber on the P-39, but it is a place to start. Convergence plays a role too, for place with wing mounted guns so keep that in mind where appropriate.

 

I've been using this method for a few weeks now and, when I can get my estimations right, it works really well. I've even managed some long range shots with the Mig's cannons; I took a 109's engine out from what must have been around 700 m. With the Russian sights you can, for the purposes of aiming, treat each mark as 10 mils I have found. Like I said before, this is real quick and dirty work so being off by one mil won't make that much difference in the aiming, unless you are trying to hit a pin head at 1 km that is. Fortunately planes are big targets, even the littlest fighters, so you don't need to be a sniper.

Edited March 7, 2018 by Disarray

[SYN_Luftwaffles]

So, uh, maybe I'm late to the party, but what's a mil and how do we use them in planes?

[LukeFF]

29 minutes ago, SYN_Luftwaffles said:

So, uh, maybe I'm late to the party, but what's a mil and how do we use them in planes?

 

There are explanations right in this topic.

[SYN_Luftwaffles]

Yeah, sorry, I was using my phone at work cause I love the game and forum so much. 

[SCG_Tzigy]

 

9 hours ago, Wad said:

 

There is 360-km/h ring (118 mils) now (two I-16 are arrange at a distance 100 м each other and at a distance 1000 m from gunnery's eye = 100 mils).

So, this is "Type A" reticle, not "B".

 

 

 

Where have u been all this time??? 

 

While ago, it took few of us a little time to have the developers fix the original sight (was completely wrong)...but i guess all we could find was the documentation for tipo A ....

 

see this for fun:

 

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/25914-mc202-sgiorgio-tipob-gunsight/

 

[Alexmarine]

So, we have the outer ring's diameter for the Type A instead of the Type B? It should not be a problem that hard to fix I think... Was the recommended gun convergence for the guns left at 250m for the Type B too?

[Wad]

6 hours ago, SCG_Tzigy said:

 

 

Where have u been all this time??? 

...see this from fun:

 

Sorry, it's just now I noticed it.

I wrote about S.Giorgio's wrong reticle and quoted "Tipo B" manual some two years ago, but it was in the Russian site and you must to be registered to read it: http://www.rossteam.su/oldforum/index.php?/topic/15454-обсуждение-вооружения-и-прицельных-систем/page__view__findpost__p__199557

Edited March 8, 2018 by Wad

[Wad]

1 hour ago, Alexmarine28 said:

So, we have the outer ring's diameter for the Type A instead of the Type B? It should not be a problem that hard to fix I think... Was the recommended gun convergence for the guns left at 250m for the Type B too?

 

Yes, the guns convergence was the same:

 

 

[Wad]

It is noteworthy that I-16's sight (ПАК-1) has 400-km/h reticle too.

But there is 140 mils in radius instead of 129 mils in S.Giorgio.

This is because of differences in estimated distance and muzzle velocity.

So, there is no any difference in aiming between S.Giorgio "Tipo B" and "ПАК-1". 

[LukeFF]

So, the one question I have at this point is this: is it correct to have the Type A gunsight in the MC202, or does it need to be changed?

Edited March 8, 2018 by LukeFF

[Alexmarine]

39 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

So, the one question I have at this point is this: is it correct to have the Type A gunsight in the MC202, or does it need to be changed?

 

Series 9 to 11 had the Tipo B, probably the series 8 too as the B was introduced in 1939 to superseed the previous model.

[Wad]

I think that the reticle shall conform to the appearance of the sight.

[LukeFF]

1 hour ago, Wad said:

I think that the reticle shall conform to the appearance of the sight.

 

Ok, thanks. It looks to me like we should have the Type B sight parameters, then.

[fiddlinjim]

My main difficulty with all the various gun sights is that those inconsiderate AI pilots  just won't fly straight and level long enough for me to line up.

They just dodge and bob around all over the sky and make things difficult, I assume that this is the reason  in real combat flying that so few pilots were aces.

I feel really good after a fight if I have shot one down and smoked another, and then manage to get back to base and land safely.

[Icaro_07]

Does any body knows what is the measurement in Mils of the small v in the p51/p47 gunsight?