Tanks in Kuban

[Porkins]

Does anyone know if there will be more tanks in Kuban than the T-34 and P III? I'm not even talking player controlled tanks, just AI tanks to bomb. Because by 1943 the up gunned PIV would have been widely available, and the Panther and Tiger would also be in theater (though I don't know if any were at Kuban). Same goes for SU 85's and other AT options for the Russians.

 

I'm generally just interested in how they will represent the battle of the Kuban bridgehead in the game. 

Edited February 22, 2018 by Porkins

[BlackSix]

There were no any Panthers or Tigers, Germans used old models of Pz III, Pz IV and Stug III at Kuban during March - October 1943

So we did only two new tanks - T-34 model 1943 with new turret and KV-1s. You could see new T-34s here

 

[Porkins]

Thanks for the reply and info. Looking forward especially to seeing KV-1's in the game. 

 

My profile pic is not a fan of your profile pic. 

[SYN_Haashashin]

My profile pic is not a fan of your profile pic. 

 

:lol: :biggrin: 

[Gambit21]

I liked that one too.

[BlackSix]

My profile pic is not a fan of your profile pic. 

 

[Haza]

BlackSix,

 

Will we be able to man and control the new tanks?

 

Tanks or thanks in advance

 

Obi-Wan Haza

Edited February 23, 2018 by Haza

[ShamrockOneFive]

Probably not until Tank Crew releases: https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/32254-announcing-battle-bodenplatte-flying-circus-tank-crew-and-mo/

 

Still nice that we're getting a 1943 T-34 an KV-1s.

[Haza]

For the non-grunts here, I thought I might add this link to tanks!

The link below is for WW2 Russian tanks but you can select any country you want etc!

Hopefully it might be useful!?

 

http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/soviet/ww2_Soviet_Tanks.php

Edited February 23, 2018 by Haza

[Habu]

THX for the link Haza.

 

I'm looking for some informations how tanks are organised on the battlefield, the formation they use, for Moscow, Stalingrad and Kuban.

[Mesha44]

Habu,

 

I can give you most of those numbers, but I will not have time until I get home from work.  in general the Germans used a 5 tank Platoon.  The Soviets used a 3 tank platoon.  For a normal Soviet Tank Battalion, you would have 3 tank per platoon, 3 platoons in a company, plus the company commander vehicle (so 10 total) and 3 companies in the battalion.  But that is only for a normal, or medium tank unit.  For Heavy tanks you had only 5 tanks in the company (2 platoons of 2, plus the Co commander).  Off the top of my head I think 5 companies made up a Regiment, but my memory is a little foggy on this.  The Soviets had a hug number of different types of tank units, and the period of 41 to early 42 was chaos for the tank units. 

 

After the disaster of Barbarossa the Soviets dissolved all their higher level tank units and only operated Battalion sized units of mixed type.  So a Heavy tank company, a medium tank company and a light tank company might make up an independent tank battalion.

 

Gotta run, more later.

[Habu]

Cool, no problem. I will wait your information.

[Mesha44]

Ok, back from work (that didn't take long did it)

 

For 1941 I am going to disregard the staff units of the Regiment and Battalion and just give you  the Company strengths.  

A Light Panzer company was a company staff of two Pz III, I light tank Plt of 5 Pz II, and 3 Plt's of 5 Pz III's

A Medium Panzer Company was a company staff in two Pz IV's, A light Pz Plt of 5 Pz II's and 3 Medium Plts of 4 Pz IV's

 

I give you a few examples of actual Pazner Regiments here

 

Sept. 1941

 2nd Pz Div (which had 3rd Pz Reg.)

The regiment is made up of 2 battalions, each of 1 medium Pz company, and 3 light pz companies.

total strength is 63 Pz II's, 105 Pz III's (with short 50mm), 20 Pz Iv (short 75mm), 

 

5th Pz Div ( which had 31st Pz Reg)

Same structure as 2nd Pz Div

Total strenght is 55 Pz II's, 105 Pz III's, 20 Pz IV

 

23rd Pz Div (201st Pz Reg) (organization as of March 42)

composed of 3 Battalions, each is 1 medium Pz Company and 2 Light Pz Companies.

Total Strength 34 Pz II's, 112 Pz III's (short and long 50mm), 32 Pz IV (short)

 

To give you and idea of the losses I have stats for 4 different divisions

12th Pz Division started in June 1941 with 234 tanks, and by 11 Dec 1941 had only 33 operational.

10th Pz Division started with 176 and ended with 33 also

1st Pz Div started with 145 and ended with only 1

14th Pz Div started wiht 147 and ended with 5

 

My source for this is Panzer Truppen Vol 1 by Thomas Jentz https://www.amazon.com/Panzertruppen-Complete-Creation-Employment-1933-1942/dp/0887409156/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1519417856&sr=8-1&keywords=panzertruppen

Edited February 23, 2018 by Mesha44

[Mesha44]

For Operation Typhoon (the drive on Moscow) the Germans had Panzer Groups 3 and 4.  Panzer Group 3 was made up of 1st, 6th and 7th Panzer Divisions.  Panzer Group 4 is 2nd, 10th, 5th, 11th, 20th and 19 Panzer Divisions.

 

***************************************************

Stalingrad data

The Panzer units were reorganized in early 1942.

 

There does not seem to be much rhyme or reason to it.

 

A Panzer battalion is normally a Medium Panzer Company and two light companies. The variation comes in at the Regimental organization.

 

1st Pz division has one panzer battalion

2nd Pz division has one panzer battalion

4th Pz division has one panzer battalion (but each have 1 medium and 3 light companies)

3rd Pz division has 3 battalions

5th has 2 battalions (but each have 1 medium and 3 light companies)

[Habu]

Thank you very much for all these informations.

 

What is the formation they use on the battlefield (like in V, or left/right edge, etc.. for plane), light tank in front, etc.. ?

[Mesha44]

I can't find my documents on the Soviet Tank forces, but this is a good start but should be taken with a grain of salt

 

http://usacac.army.mil/cac2/CGSC/CARL/nafziger/942RXAD.pdf

 

http://usacac.army.mil/cac2/CGSC/CARL/nafziger/942RDXC.pdf

 

Soviet order of battle for Stalingrad

http://usacac.army.mil/cac2/CGSC/CARL/nafziger/942RJAA.pdf

 

http://usacac.army.mil/cac2/CGSC/CARL/nafziger/942RXAH.pdf

[Mesha44]

Thank you very much for all these informations.

 

What is the formation they use on the battlefield (like in V, or left/right edge, etc.. for plane), light tank in front, etc.. ?

 

I think any of those formations are fine, and the german documentation I have does talk about them using those formations.  I don't know how well the game editor will let you control this, so I would not stress too much over it.

 

In general practice I would think the light tanks would be scouting ahead, but would withdraw if they take fire.  Keep the platoons together, and spread them out to cover each other.  

 

If you have specific units you are interested in let me know.  I have some unit names for the various Soviet Fronts and what Tank or Motorized forced were attached.

[Mesha44]

Or just watch this video

[Habu]

Thx, i'll have a look.

 

Here is the kind of thing i'm looking for, in addition to those you gave above. It's the formation used by Panthere in russia in the summer 1943 for Koursk.

[Mesha44]

This is kind of a trope perpetuated by video games. 

Ok, so tell us what the real world use for the platoon of light tanks in every German Pz company is used for.

[C-Bag]

Having watched the video I suspect the example where light tanks are engaged and pull back was hypothetical, and not literal. And even then it would make more sense as a group of light tanks that was accidentally engaged, and not on the attack leading a formation (though this is not specified).

After watching the video(thanks Mesha44!) I disagree. What I get from the whole vid is tank tactics seem to directly mirror infantry tactics. Depending on the situation I see a direct correlation between light tanks and infantry scouts. If the idea is to move fast and keep the enemy off balance how does it make sense to have your slowest tanks out front in a situation where you don't know the enemy positions for sure? Even assaulting a known enemy position it might make sense to have the heavies out front with the lights flanking quickly. I thought the vid was excellent in that I never got that there was much tactics going on with tanks from the movies I'd seen.

[Haza]

Might help somebody!

 

https://www.bookdepository.com/Panzer-Tactics-Wolfgang-Schneider/9780811732444?ref=pd_detail_1_sims_b_p2p_1

[PatrickAWlson]

Early on the light tanks were used to attack rear areas after the initial penetration.  In 1939/1940 there were far more Pz IIs than IIIs.  That's what  made the Czech tanks (Pz35t and Pz38t) so important.  By 1941 the PzIII was much more common.  I'm pretty sure that the Czech tanks were still in use in 1941, although none are listed in the posts above.

 

Later they were used as recon units.  Infantry support would always be on the table.  

[Dakpilot]

A bit off topic from where this has gone, so sorry 

 

but does anyone know which Tanks (if any) the Russians used during the amphibious landings around Novorossiysk ?

 

Am sure I remember reading something about lend lease M3 (stuart) but my memory may be playing tricks 

 

not a biggie 

 

Cheers, Dakpilot

 

[Porkins]

 

A bit off topic from where this has gone, so sorry 

 

but does anyone know which Tanks (if any) the Russians used during the amphibious landings around Novorossiysk ?

 

Am sure I remember reading something about lend lease M3 (stuart) but my memory may be playing tricks 

 

not a biggie 

 

Cheers, Dakpilot

 

 

Pretty sure they were using Stuarts. Not sure how good this source is, but it mentions the Soviets using Stuarts during this operation.

 

http://warfarehistorynetwork.com/daily/wwii/soviet-soldiers-by-sea-liberating-novorossiysk/

[Mesha44]

I found a link in Google Books to Steven Zaloga's "Soviet Lend-Lease Tanks of World War II"  which states that the 563rd Separate Tank Bn landed with 33 M-3 tanks.  Only about a dozen made it to shore, most were trapped on a barge that was hit by artillery fire, others were unloaded in water that was too deep and their engines drowned. 

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=NXgnDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA16&lpg=PA16&dq=Soviet+forces+landing+in+Novorossiysk&source=bl&ots=WI1mh_mHo6&sig=y8_-QdJwQEznDuu3EK7VdRoHuz0&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjupo6m0cTZAhWH2YMKHb2eAZ44ChDoAQgrMAE#v=onepage&q=Soviet%20forces%20landing%20in%20Novorossiysk&f=false