An attempt to revive old IL2 wars.

[KG200_Volker]

Hello gents, it seems that we are not far from the coop missions patch. We have a server going (nothing too fancy) and I want to ask if anyone from some of the brilliant minds that go around the forums are interested in this.

 

We can provide (The KG200 team) a pc that has: win10 home, 7350k oced to 4.7 (chosen for the strong single core), 8gb memory, ssd main hd and nothing else running on it (apart from team viewer for handling), a line of 30mb Down 5mb up (it will be upgraded to 10mb up in time).

 

In order to make and old school coop online war from Il2. Since my brain is old I only remeber VEF name now.

 

For the ones that don’t know what I am talking about. There’s is a site that you register your pilot and squad if you have one. There is a map that is divided at the beginning of the war equally. Upon sucsefull outcome of the mission you fly the borders on map change. Upon capturing a predefined area the campaign ends. To win or loose a campaign might take days, weeks or months.

 

This is how it worked and of course we can change things also to fit our situation.

 

Each team requests the mission they want to fly by filling in the site the plane types (from the ones available) and the type of mission. Each team was dived in half let’s say 8x8, so 4 will be defending and 4 attacking. The selection of mission type was about the bombers, either an attrition bombing to reduce a cities deffences, or an airfield bombing to put it out of action for some missions, or a capture area attack that changes the borders. All of them important to fly cause the stronger the city and AF nearby the harder the square to capture.

 

After the “request” from both sides was done the host downloaded the mission from the site. Until the mission started you dint know what the opposing team is attacking. You could see that in the mission from the defending planes task. Which means at the same time that firstly you absolutely must fly as a team, with coms even better, usually squads invited solo pilots to their TS. You will find enemies for sure either you attack or defend. The strategy thow is your responsibility (cover go high to lure defenders and suicidal HE111 we go ground kissing), or leave 3 defenders instead of 4 and bring 1 more on attack escort cause this target is very important.

 

Each mission usual took from 45mins to 1 hr, at the end of it the host uploaded the mission log to the site and the results of each team changed the map for all the VVS or OKL teams.

 

It goes without saying that in this missions there is no reflly ! One life for each mission.

 

Now it was very rewarding to fly these kind of wars, you had the feel of participating in something grater, your skills where secondary to team work in squad level and team level. You had bigger responsibility against the side you choose to fly, it promoted communicating, which in the end is what makes wonderful in my opinion.

 

 

Now what are we missing (the part that you will lafgh) , first the patch!!! Then the mission generator, and lastly the site.

 

That’s why I am making the post to see if we have people that want to get involved and make something together

Edited February 17, 2018 by KG200_Volker

[Angus]

Those were the best times of IL-2 VEF and VOW...............if that worked again it would be a dream

[KoN_]

Yes the good old days il-46 Sunday nights campaign nights , moving battle fronts and real time moving war machines . Flying as squads and a stat system that worked . WTF has happend . I really hope the new patch makes changes to multiplayer. And the damage modeling of axis planes .

[KG200_Volker]

I hope guys, I hope...

 

1K people in HL flying, that's what BoX deserves again.

[LeLv30_Superbus-]

I have waited three days for someone, anyone to stop by this thread to say those lovely words: Why, yes, YES indeed their team has started to work on a proper online war. Cooperative flying and none of that 400 simultaneous player dogfight nonsense I have come to hate so passionately. Possibly based on old code or principles of Bellum or any of the dynamic online wars, really.

 

But there's been nothing. Surely they would have time to drop just one line. I'm afraid no one is busy at work making our dream come true.

 

 

[LLv34_Temuri]

No coop available currently, but TAW is quite nice.

 

I wouldn't hold my breath for any SEOW type of implementation, as the dserver can't handle the amount of players and AI.

[StG77_Kondor]

VEF/VOW were the best of times in the old IL-2 - before it was revealed that people were cheating. 

 

TAW is great for the tools we currently have. But it's far from perfect. Player imbalance and its 24/7 nature minimizes the vast majority of the individual pilot's efforts. Unless you're one of the pilots with 6+ flying hours everyday, your performance won't matter much in the grand scheme. A coop online war would be a great option to have. 

[KG200_Volker]

That will bring some memories: http://tafck.free.fr/index.html

 

I don’t know if I can find today any of this guys and ask help. The coding part is what makes me curse myself not learning how when I had the time.

 

I am going to work on set pieces for the missions (I know that propably it is fruitless but still...hoping). Remind me if you remember. This pieces can be used if we manage to have a program that creates the mission. There are some tools allready, DED or TAW guys made them or developers helped them I don’t know really, but still it means mission generation.

 

We had armor attacking a camp when the mission was to capture a grid square. So we need a camp along with tanks attacking it.

We had something like a factory complex when we wanted to reduce a grids defence. (Less antitank canons on defending camps)

We had also supply missions to revive damaged grids (ju52 happy!)

 

Anything else?

Edited February 21, 2018 by KG200_Volker

[SCG_ItsDrifter]

Well there is currently a Campaign war,  (FNBF - Friday night bomber flight) As it says, once every friday. We're currently on the Kuban map, We usually get 30 on each side on a good friday, all coordinated, attacking targets as a whole group.

 

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/23544-friday-night-bomber-flight-topic/page-68?do=findComment&comment=577362

[KG200_Volker]

Thank you for mentioning it Dr1ft3r!

 

I haven’t tried you war, just read about it and it looks quite nice. The barrier is that it doesn’t run all day and time People in my age is hard to set specific times for our hobby.

 

PS If we manage to set up this war, another advantage apart from time freedom is that people from US or Australia can participate without troubles of time zones or server ping!

Edited February 21, 2018 by KG200_Volker

[LUZITANO]

Hi Volker, i love your idea

I tested your server and I liked it. Call me if you need someone to give feedback
If you plan to do something like "spit vs 109", man, I wish you lots of luck and I certainly want to join you too

If I'm not mistaken this server had a limit of 500 ping, I played a lot of it. In the area where I live my ping reaches 340 on European servers

I think it's important that there is a server where the distance from the targets is not as great as some are, with the compass, inside cockpit, no icons and ... maybe a simpler control for the engine

 

[SvAF/F19_Klunk]

online wars were just... fab

really... it was a great sensation when ALL (on each side mind u) in a mission had a specific task and we all worked together in order to be successful... thus affecting the outcome of the "war"

Alas, this was at a time when .. I had more time on my hand.. the only downside to the concept was the waiting in order for the mission to start... and then maybe the neccessity to restart the mission for some reason. 

Maybe this time around connections are more stable and organizing takes less time..

 

but it was good times!

s

[Mac_Messer]

Ok theoretically we have coop mode, what now?

[KG200_Volker]

It’s too soon, give it some time for people to check out patch.

 

Let’s see if guys able to program/code thins show interest.

[EAF_Starfire]

Are we talking SEOW?

(Scorched Eart Online War)

http://www.seowhq.net/

 

 

[KG200_Volker]

Sorry for answering so late. Job obligatios. SEOW I don’t remember it. I’ll check.

 

Maybe this will remind you: http://tafck.free.fr/

 

Now I started working on an example coop mission like the ones in those online wars. When I have it ready I will post here so people can get an idea and beta test for what is possible.

 

If all goes well we’ll have a starting point for what is demanded from the mission generator.

 

As you see on the other hand nobody that has coding/programming abilities showed any interest so far.

[LLv34_Temuri]

15 hours ago, KG200_Volker said:

SEOW I don’t remember it. I’ll check.

 

If all goes well we’ll have a starting point for what is demanded from the mission generator.

 

We already know what is demanded from the mission generator

http://seowhq.net/seowwiki-en/index.php?title=Main_Page

[KG200_Volker]

Some problems, for the time being SEOW system is hard. The VEF or Bellum types are propably easier to do and they give more freedom to squads flying them. Gather your flyers, request mission, download and host, upload results. 

 

You have to take in account also that current IL2 can’t handle so rich in content maps as the old one. Not too many  planes and objects make the mission unplayable so we need a lively, on one hand, battlefield but with the least amount of objects so it won’t bring PCs down to their knees.

 

Yesterday we test-flight a mission with 2 bombers and 6 fighters on each side (for a total of 16 pilots), it went well apart from mission design errors from my end. I hope I ll have the time today to correct some things and retest. I will post here before we start tonight so anyone wants to participate feel free to join!

Edited March 20, 2018 by KG200_Volker

[LeLv30_Redwing-]

Looking forward to hear more of your progress! I check later when you´re testing and try to get couple squadmates to join with myself.

 

[LLv34_Temuri]

59 minutes ago, KG200_Volker said:

Some problems, for the time being SEOW system is hard. The VEF or Bellum types are propably easier to do and they give more freedom to squads flying them. Gather your flyers, request mission, download and host, upload results. 

 

You have to take in account also that current IL2 can’t handle so rich in content maps as the old one. Not too many  planes and objects make the mission unplayable so we need a lively, on one hand, battlefield but with the least amount of objects so it won’t bring PCs down to their knees.

Yeah, to have SEOW scale things on BoX is currently not possible, but that is the ultimate goal

[EAF_Starfire]

1 hour ago, LLv34_Temuri said:

Yeah, to have SEOW scale things on BoX is currently not possible, but that is the ultimate goal

 

The question is: Do we believe that BoX will grow to be able to handle it?

 

If so,...when should we start looking into the requirements?

And who?

Not in terms of PC/server, but in terms of logfile entries, databases as well as information of roads and railroads.

I read that the campaign system on Cliffs fell apart due to the lack of a functional rail-system, roads and river crossing (bridges).

An issue which was not on Team Fusions fix list for the current patch.

 

 

On 2/20/2018 at 9:31 PM, LLv34_Temuri said:

I wouldn't hold my breath for any SEOW type of implementation, as the dserver can't handle the amount of players and AI.

 

The Dserver is in serious need of an overhaul

[LLv34_Temuri]

10 minutes ago, EAF_Starfire said:

 

The question is: Do we believe that BoX will grow to be able to handle it?

 

If so,...when should we start looking into the requirements?

And who?

Not in terms of PC/server, but in terms of logfile entries, databases as well as information of roads and railroads.

I read that the campaign system on Cliffs fell apart due to the lack of a functional rail-system, roads and river crossing (bridges).

An issue which was not on Team Fusions fix list for the current patch.

 

 

 

The Dserver is in serious need of an overhaul

Of course it's possible for BoX to grow to handle it, if the development team so decides. However, it currently looks like multiplayer is not a priority. Let's hope that changes.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by "information of roads and railroads", but I was testing supply convoys for our Finnish VirtualPilots' server some time ago. I found out that the only thing needed for a convoy to go from point A to point B via a road was to place the destination waypoint somewhere and then tell the convoy to move to the waypoint via roads (offroad is possible too). Simple, but IIRC for handling bridges that are destroyed on the way, you'll need to add more waypoints and trigger those after a bridge gets destroyed in the mission. Should be doable too. With trains near Moscow region I did have some trouble. I couldn't get a train to run the way I wanted through a junction, so there might be something for the devs to fix.

 

What would be good to have for a SEOW style system is the ability to get the coordinates of each moving ground vehicle at the end of the mission. Currently, the only way to get the coordinates is to give a Damage: Complete command to the object, which then results in the logs having entry about the destruction of the object. The system could be implemented so that there's a point in time close to mission end when this destroying of vehicles takes place.

[LeLv30_Redwing-]

No luck, got disconnected both times. I have no idea what is wrong with the coops, I´ve managed to join only a few hosts. I did see cockpit both times today but then back to lobby.

[KG200_Volker]

Redwing thanks for joining. I saw in another thread that if you raise your connection speed both for up/down in IL2 to 10mbits helps with kicks/disconnections. Try it out, I do not know what’s the reason for kicks.

We ll do a test again tonight, I m setting up a quick discord channel or you can join our TS so we can communicate better  than in game chat. Since you joined yesterday you have the mission in your coop folder and you can run it too.

 

For the test yesterday, it went well, nobody complaint for problems while flying. The low FPS during takeoff is normal with that many planes at the same spot. The pc that the mission was run has a 4790k. The mission had 6 bombers and 18 fighters.

 

OKL attack: 3 x Bf 110 //4 x Bf 109 F4 Defend: 5 x Bf 109 F4

VVS attack: 3 x Pe2 // 4 x Spit Defend : 5 x Yak7

 

Many elements are missing from the mission, like beacons, 3A at airfields etc. I will try to add them tonight and set a time to start which I will post here. We need more flyers to check how it works with more people.

 

The idea is to have set elements of flights and targets. Probably it is easier for creating a generator, this has to be confirmed by someone that knows how to make a mission generator. Three target types :

 

1. City. It has a power of 100% on the beginning of the campaign. Power is reduced when it is bombed. The reduction of a city’s power has an effect on the next target, the factory. (We can also have reinforce missions for cities and factories stricken but don’t get ahead of ourself yet!)

 

2. Factory. Again a power factor like the city. When it’s reduced by bombing it affects the next target.

 

3. Sector. And that’s the ultimate goal. The side that captures a set part of the map , consisting from various sectors, will win the campaign. To take one sector you have to do a bombing mission once more. The more powerful (or un-bombed) the city and factory that support the sector are the hardest to capture it (more targets need to be destroyed and mora 3A to cover it)

 

In general: demoralize the city that feeds the factories with workers to diminish the defensive ability of the enemy.

 

In the site you ll see the map with enemy targets and their respective defense power, each side will request a target to strike, the generator will create the mission and the host will download it and run it. Upon ending the host will upload the mission log to the site so the map is updated for the rest of OKL or VVS participating in the campaign.

 

There are other details but I just wanted you to get an idea for the idea

 

In the mission we tested supposedly the OKL requested a sector capture and the VVS a factory bombing.

 

WARNING: If anyone flies tonight with us keep in mind that in 4 planes group (defenders) No2 is actually No1 (leader), if you take No1 from list you will start in the second position right behind the leader, some bug there maybe or something that don't understand.

 

Edited March 21, 2018 by KG200_Volker

[KoN_]

On 17/03/2018 at 2:49 PM, EAF_Starfire said:

Are we talking SEOW?

(Scorched Eart Online War)

http://www.seowhq.net/

 

 

II./JG77 flew many campaigns there . Sunday nights with THor. Great stats reports and moving front lines . 

This game cant handle that kind of campaign . Gone backwards imho.

And SOW has gone to DCS that was part of cliffs of dover . 

Edited March 22, 2018 by II./JG77_Con

[LeLv30_Superbus-]

On 3/21/2018 at 1:31 PM, KG200_Volker said:

In the mission we tested supposedly the OKL requested a sector capture and the VVS a factory bombing.

 

There were no VVS ai at OKL target area. No ai waypoints perhaps?

[KG200_Volker]

Dunno, I ll check.

[Retnek]

7 hours ago, II./JG77_Con said:

...

This game cant handle that kind of campaign . Gone backwards imho.

...

Looking at Coconuts server I say IL2-BoX is able to handle comparable campaigns already, including moving front-lines, resource economics and attrition. I never have been deep into managing good old SEOW, but playing around with my little server and (mini-) campaigns I remember there was A LOT administrative work to do! So in both cases the campaign magic comes from behind the sim-engine itself. Recent IL2-BoX server projects f.e. by Coconut or Volker already revive the old IL2-wars. Considering today's much smaller community I'm grateful and confident. We'll get there!

[LLv34_Temuri]

The dserver chokes on the amount of moving ground objects and AI flights that are a staple in SEOW. Sure you can have smaller scale wars, and they are enjoyable, but let’s call a spade a spade: currently, SEOW scale online war can’t be done due to dserver’s lackluster performance.

Edited March 22, 2018 by LLv34_Temuri
Typo

[KG200_Volker]

Discord invite: https://discord.gg/cm8desE

 

[KoN_]

20 hours ago, 216th_Retnek said:

Looking at Coconuts server I say IL2-BoX is able to handle comparable campaigns already, including moving front-lines, resource economics and attrition. I never have been deep into managing good old SEOW, but playing around with my little server and (mini-) campaigns I remember there was A LOT administrative work to do! So in both cases the campaign magic comes from behind the sim-engine itself. Recent IL2-BoX server projects f.e. by Coconut or Volker already revive the old IL2-wars. Considering today's much smaller community I'm grateful and confident. We'll get there!

It cant be done , not yet anyhow `this is what im asking for that multi-player needs a overhaul . Even today with new patch its struggles . The reason so small is because it dont work and the numbers have given up with on-line wars , if we had a 100 player server i can guarantee 100 players . We have a long way to go and the plan is from 1c/777 is a online battlefield .

[KG200_Volker]

That is why I m trying to revive this kind of war. The missions are light (or I hope), they end in about 1 hour and people can host them without a supercomputer (like it used to be back then:). The guys that participated in these wars know how much fun it was.

 

I 've completed 3 missions to use as example or template. They take place in Stalin, Mosc and Kuban, all have different types of AC and showcase the 3 types of targets for each side. We need some people to test them.

 

On Monday at 19:00 GMT I hope I ll see some of you.

 

[Retnek]

18 hours ago, LLv34_Temuri said:

The dserver chokes on the amount of moving ground objects and AI flights that are a staple in SEOW. Sure you can have smaller scale wars, and they are enjoyable, but let’s call a spade a spade: currently, SEOW scale online war can’t be done due to dserver’s lackluster performance.

Correct - next to well done small scale scenarios there might be a way to larger scales. Starting parallel server events or one phase divided into several sessions stretched over time. Since military pilots mostly had tight orders to follow, this won't hurt sim-pilots interested in realism.

 

Parallel servers - one can imagine to separate elements of one large conflict over several servers. Running at the same time, later all the logs are pooled, plotted and influence the next phase - f.e.

Server 1: missions for (strategic) level bombing, recon and escorts versus high fighter cover blocking sectors or patrolling (strategic high)

Server 2: missions for air transport and plane supply runs plus escorts versus long range fighters and intruders aiming for trains and bridges (strategic low)

Server 3 to 5: the "usual" tactical air war missions, but separately for three sectors North, Middle and South (3 x tactical low)

Once a day a high-command-board of gamers is able to re-direct a limited number of planes between the servers to adapt, build up a focus, counter enemy activity.

 

The other option might be stretching a single two hour in-game-phase on one server, so the missions now are presented in sequence. If there's a way to couple it with a clever selection tool during times of low demand small groups of pilots can select what kind of mission-setup the server presents next. Maybe it's wise to choose the tactical scenarios during the usually crowded evening hours and the Golden Eagles fly the transports during the morning hours?

 

One can combine both ways, too: two parallel servers, one presenting more or less "strategic" 3 h long mission types dealing with level bombing, recon and supply. While the other offers 1.5 h tactical missions better suited for the action crowd.

 

As long as there is a common mission building database all the missions are build on the results of all the missions before. Such divided setup might help to get near to old SEOW results with today's limited resources. That system needs in a lot of administrative work and an additional level of "strategic data design". If there's a mind looking at it as an interesting challenge?

Edited March 23, 2018 by 216th_Retnek

[KG200_Volker]

We need some VVS to test now guys! Join at discord here if you like:  https://discord.gg/cm8desE

[KG200_Volker]

Hello again guys, Easter Holliday’s ended and we are back for the efort.

 

I ve made 4-5 missions to test, If anyone is interested, especially VVS, we can set a rantevou.

 

The missions are for 11 pilots each side, 5 defenders against 3 escort fighters and 3 bombers. The ones not occupied by humans are occupied by AI and as long as someone is the leader in a flight orders and controls the AI too.

 

There is one attack target where the bombers+escort goes and defenders that whait for them there for each side. Duration is for 1 hour per mission.

 

The targets are 3 of a kind. A factory that has parked vehicles which must be destroyed up to a number to be a sucsefull mission. A city that needs to be carpet bombed due to very heavy AAA at low alt. A “sector capture” artillery camp where the cannons need to be destroyed.

 

Many aspects have not been tested to find the flaws so any help, recommendations, ideas are highly welcomed.

 

We allready flew some witch where posted here

 

http://kg200.net:8000

 

Also the discord server which if you join by time of mission will help a lot communicating than chat.

 

I also made a post requesting help for  mission generator but none replied sigh.

 

Edited April 12, 2018 by KG200_Volker

[[N.O.G.F]_Cathal_Brugha]

I am interested Volker, if my time lines up. I am usually around between 1600 and 2000 hrs US Eastern time due to my job, but usually once a week I have a whole day free. Let me know when you fly and I will see what I can do.

Edited April 12, 2018 by Cathal_Brugha

[ITAF_Rani]

We remember well the co op time...was early 2000 years..lot of fun...!!

My first co op was Bellum War..great !

[KG200_Volker]

Yes  I know what you mean, I am trying to get in contact with DED Zlodey which has created something that might work. We try out missions to see what’s possible and so far it looks relatively good. Unfortunately we don’t get VVS pilots and we fly against AIs, whoever wants to join can post here and set up time and day.

 

Once again, discord server invite at the bottom of this page:  http://kg200.net:8000/

Edited April 26, 2018 by KG200_Volker

[KoN_]

Is CO-OP dead ..??? Or broken . 

[KG200_Volker]

JG77_Con, unfortunately it seems that people don't get so interested. Over to my side I am bit drowned by work but if we gather pilots I already have a bunch of test missions ready.

-DED- Zlodey has created a generator for coops, I tried to contact the guys there, gave them thhe examples, offered my help if I can do anything. They don't seem interested, maybe its too hard to do or something I don't know.

 

I cant create code or programs so without help I can't offer much