Suppression of Enemy Air Defences

[Royal_Flight]

Tired of being sent home trailing smoke or knocked down in flames, I'm taking the war back to the flak.

I've been experimenting with different aircraft types and loadouts for SEAD/DEAD (suppression/destruction of enemy air defences) missions and I've had a few results, but haven't quite cracked it yet and it's still a challenging and risky mission which probably results in being shot down or damaged to the point of forcing an RTB more than half the time.

Part of that is just down to the inherent risks, and the inability to cause morale damage or make the gunners duck plus the (in some cases) super-accurate flak doesn't help matters.

 

The useful criteria I've identified are speed and agility close to the ground (prioritising roll rate to jink out of ten way of incoming tracers), toughness (obviously), and having a good cannon armament mounted as close to the centreline as possible so convergence is less of a concern. I have a feeling that rockets are more useful than bombs due to their standoff range but I've been having difficulty aiming them accurately.

Bombs generally require overflying the target which makes for an easy shot on the part of flak, and slow you down before release, but tend to hit harder and have more 'splash damage' meaning perfect accuracy is less important than with rockets or guns.

 

What I've found so far is that single-engined fighters seem to do better than dedicated ground-attack platforms due to their speed and smaller profile, and the lesser armour is an acceptable trade-off as if the flak gets a bead on you, it will usually always win.

It's safer to try not to let it hit you at all than rely on armour to shrug off impacts. Interestingly I've found it's usually the wings and tail that take damage as you can't see incoming fire as clearly from behind and below. It's rarer to be hit from the front presumably because you can see tracers coming and can dodge them.

 

So far I've discovered the Fw 190A-5/U17 (F-3) is the best from a LW perspective, hardly surprising as it's a flying murder factory in the right hands. It's fast, durable, good roll rate and with a solid armament. The 2x20mm are centrally-mounted enough that convergence isn't a big deal, and while using bombs is a bit of a risk, if you can get close enough to drop them accurately then they'll put any gun out of commission. Useful for flak trucks in armoured columns as you can almost carpet-bomb the length of the road.

 

The Bf 110G is a solid runner-up as, although it's a bigger target and much less amenable to being thrown around as fast, it packs a killer punch with all the nose-mounted ordinance, is fairly fast and can carry a good few bombs. The 37mm cannon is the star turn though as with 66 rounds of HE you can dive on a target, lob a few heavy shells at a flak position and pull off, the circle and go back in.

Two engines also allow for a bit of redundancy.

That said, I wouldn't take this over the 190 as even though the 37mm is a better weapon for the job, the 110 isn't as good a platform for it.

 

The faithful Stuka is too slow and with wing-mounted 37mms you need to get too close. Dive-bombing at 90 degrees also makes you a nearly static target from the gunner's perspective and once you're out of bombs your input is over, although the pull-out from the dive sees you at your most vulnerable and this is when the majority of the flak impacts will get you.

 

The 109E with SC50s is like a budget 190 in this context, less tough and greater convergence though so I wouldn't choose it if I didn't have to.

 

For VVS, the LaGG-3 with NS-37 in the nose is the way to go. It's relatively fast and rolls well, plus the centreline cannon with HE is accurate and gives a reasonable-ish standoff range. Only 20 rounds though means choosing your shots very carefully which isn't always possible. The 23mm with HE isn't bad for this either, making up for less explosive power with a longer burst.

I can't consistently hit with rockets, and I find it better to use them in pairs which means six rockets only give you three shots. I find it hard to predict where exactly they'll end up after launch but if I can get this cracked then they offer a far greater standoff range than guns alone.

Failing this, 2xFAB-50s will do, it's harder to get in, release accurately and get out again if the target is a high-velocity AA autocannon but it's an option, and the FAB-100s cause too much drag and deuce the roll rate to lower than I'd like if I'm trying to dodge incoming fire.

 

The Sturmovik is well-armoured and armed to the teeth but I find it to be a bit too sluggish and heavy in the air as a result of the weight of steel it carries. Also, the visibility to the sides and rear is shocking, again thanks to the armour, and because the canopy can't be relied on to stay open in a dive it's difficult to keep situational awareness of tracers.

I'd pick 23mm VYas over NS-37s just for the ammo count, but guns at convergence puts you too close for my liking. ROS-132 rockets are good, higher explosive radius and four pairs rather than three, but again hard to aim. 6xFAB-50s is better than -100s again for the weight and drag, but there's the same difficulty in bombing flak and surviving.

 

The Kittyhawk isn't bad either, it's tough and can get fast enough in a dive, but it doesn't like climbing very much and trying to get away after a pass is usually where it's gotten me killed.

It can carry rockets as well as a 250 or 500 kilo bomb which will make a mess if it gets on target, but the heavier bombs reduce performance and it's overkill for a single flak position, of which there may be five or six. Also, wing guns mean convergence issues are still a factor.

 

My beloved Peshka isn't much use for this type of mission, not as agile in getting out of the way, a bigger target and the twin MG armament isn't as useful as a cannon would be.

If I could aim with rockets then having ten -132s would be great and might make me reconsider just for that.

On the plus side the Peshka is notoriously hard as nails and I've flown it 50+ km home before on only one engine so I'd feel safe inside the cockpit.

 

In terms of how to make an attack run, I've found that a curving approach at 1000m until the target is about to disappear under the wing root allows you to keep separation and not present as predictable a target while keeping an eye out for tracers. Then, roll over into the target at about 50/60 degrees of dive, get wings level and open fire from about 500m altitude (probably equates to about 700/800m slant range), get the shots in and then roll out again, climbing back the way you came away from the guns.

Every few seconds, roll and change direction until about 1500m. Then go around and approach from a different angle.

 

Also, if you can see tracers coming up, wait for them to stop as sometimes they seem to be reloading and if you catch them like this, you can obviously press an attack closer on an enemy who's not trying to kill you first.

 

*********************************

 

Has anyone else ever set out to deliberately target flak, and if so are there any tips, tricks or techniques that have worked?

Or conversely, what hasn't worked and is worth avoiding?

 

Also, any suggestions on how to consistently hit things with rockets without having to park next to them?

 

Any input welcome. Excuse the wall of text.

 

TL;DR help me hunt the deadliest foe in BoX. Posthumous medals for all.

[unreasonable]

I've found climbing away after the attack run to be hazardous (maybe I'm just bad at it)...prefer to just run away at best speed to get out of AA range while jinking. P-40 with extra ammo makes a good Wild Weasel thanks to good dive speed and high-speed agility IMO.

 

Climbing away is hazardous because it is hazardous....     My Spitfire Handbook has an interesting section (a contemporary document) which discusses the tactics used by 2nd TAF Spitfires in ground attack, in which the attack profiles are laid out. Climbing away from the target is labelled as "wrong"!  The right way is to use your speed to clear the target area while staying at the height of the pull out from bomb release (for bombing) or the end of the strafing run, with a slight turn to clear the target for the next attacker.  I actually think jinking is a mistake, since it will slow you down - as long as you are not flying straight you have done enough to give the guns a harder shot. 

[JimTM]

I like flying SEAD missions and I too use the curved approach to the target and a curved departure away from it. I keep a close eye on the light AA and dive or climb slightly to avoid it until the last few seconds of my attack run. It's a nice feeling to be able to announce that the AA is clear at the target. Usually, I go back and pick up a bomber, knowing that I have one less thing to worry about on the bomb run.

[Finkeren]

Fw 190A5 in U17 configuration is great for this.

 

The IL-2 with 23mm guns is great too because of the excellent survivability. It can almost shake off machine gun fire and can actually be lucky enough to survive 1-2 hits from a 37mm and still limp home.

[56RAF_Roblex]

I would agree that rockets are not an effective way to suppress AA.  I don't think bombs are either but maybe I am just not accurate enough with them.  When my squad attacks a TB or Airfield or Depot we always leave the bombers circling a few km out and send in fighters first,  Yaks are our usual choice because they are very agile and their guns are good enough.   I see the point about Laggs having more powerful guns, also LA-5s,  but we still stick with Yaks because if we are going to get caught on the deck by 109s the Yak is more survivable and better able to protect the bombers if they get spotted loitering.   It is all very well saying an LA-5 can extend and climb and come back but that does not help the bombers :-)   

[CanadaOne]

Fw 190A5 in U17 configuration is great for this.

The IL-2 with 23mm guns is great too because of the excellent survivability. It can almost shake off machine gun fire and can actually be lucky enough to survive 1-2 hits from a 37mm and still limp home.

Yep. An IL2 with just 23mm and low fuel for as much speed as possible.

 

That's my baby.

[Nocke]

You'll loose an aileron.

[CrazyDuck]

Has anyone else ever set out to deliberately target flak, and if so are there any tips, tricks or techniques that have worked?

 

Drag'n'bag works best in my experience. Your teammate distracts the flak from distance while you swoop in and take it out.

 

In other words, each friendly plane should go for the flak firing at someone else, not for the AAA shooting at him.

 

I agree - Fw seems to be the (obvious) choice for the blue side, IL-2 with 23mm for the red.

Edited February 11, 2018 by CrazyDuck

[CanadaOne]

You'll loose an aileron.

I always carry an extra.

[ACG_pezman]

The basic tenants of SEAD are:

1. Approach
   • Don't fly a straight path to your target
   • Come from an odd direction (from behind the column or position works best)
   • Know when to break off your attack - if the AAA decides you're their target, better abort and try again.
2. Speed
   • Speed is kinetic energy, so store that stuff as altitude for a later payday on your attack run.
   • Achieve your maximum dive speed on your attack and maintain it through the dive
3. Egress
   • Hug the deck on your egress, the higher you are the more guns will have an angle to shoot at you with
   • Know what way to go immediately after your attack to egress
   • Make sure your bomb run heading is, or is very close, to your egress heading

 

Now, all these have been listed many times by many people above, in one form or another, so it really comes down to aircraft choice.  And that even differs depending on the number of pilots, the target, enemy forces, distance, etc...

 

If I had to choose one for each side, I would choose:

 

VVS:  P-40E w/ 6x .50" MG w/ extra ammo, 4x RKT, 1x 250kg

 

The P-40E is exceptionally tough and carries a variety of A2G weapons that are devastating against multiple types of targets.  Combine this with it's exceptional dive speed (I do believe it's the fastest in the game... faster than the FW-190!) and high speed handling, you can attack, evade, and egress quite easily.  After the first pass you have plenty of bullets to spray, so distance and convergence are less of an issue.  Great fuel economy too, however the top speed in level flight lacks... but that's why we dive in.

 

LW:  BF-110E2 w/ 2x 7.7mm, 2x 20mm, varying bomb load (mission dependent), Armor Windscreen and Headrest, Additional Engine Armor.

 

The BF-110E2 is great for this role.  It has additional armor that allow it to absorb any unexpected punishment (we don't plan on getting shot, it just happens) so you can RTB if necessary.  However if you attack with altitude and speed you usually wont see any flak hit you.  The plethora of ammo (in case you didn't know, and I flew with someone the other day who didn't, you can reload your 20mm cannons after you run out of ammo) and center-line guns, you can begin a strafe from very far away, and as you overfly the target pickle a bomb.  The fuel capacity is mammoth on this aircraft, you shouldn't run out of it from a fuel leak.  The two engines do provide durability and redundancy and the prop feathering also helps here too.

 

Long story short, whatever aircraft you feel most comfortable in is what works best for you.  As long as you plan your approach, keep your speed up, and egress as low as (or lower than) the tree-tops, you should be able to SEAD virtually any position successfully.  However also remember this:  Shooting close or getting explosions near enemy AAA will make the less experienced crews (most AAA in this game) abandon their positions for about five minutes (Ace AAA crews will laugh at you then shoot you down).  This is why strafing as much as possible, and getting bombs near target too, is critical for a successful sortie.  If you don't scare the crews away they will shoot at you much quicker and every approach after the first will be much harder.  For this reason I usually take bombs because the splash damage is a lot more effective than my strafing when there is turbulence.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

I haven't done dedicated flak suppression in a while but my experience is that in pairs you should draw fire and clear your wingman, but when flying solo the best technique is a medium altitude bomb drop from a 30-45 degree dive.

 

Light to medium calibre guns are only effective up to a certain altitude. If you start your dive from 3000m or up, don't drop below about 1500m and immediately pull up, you'll essentially only spend a few seconds within range.

 

The challenge here is making your delivery accurate since from those altitudes and speeds dropping half a second late lands your bombs in China. A solid understanding of the bombing triangle goes a long way here, and once you develop a feel for it you'll become a human CCIP pipper. With proper accounting for bullet drop you can also spray the area from higher up.

[Lensman]

VIZ-TIPS:

 

Land and taxi towards the AA gun then open fire. It won't be able to fire low enough to hit you.

[ACG_pezman]

VIZ-TIPS:

 

Land and taxi towards the AA gun then open fire. It won't be able to fire low enough to hit you.

I'd love to believe that, but I got wasted in a 110 cutting grass.  And by the large AAA gun of all types.  He got one shot and nailed it... asshole.

[56RAF_Roblex]

I'd love to believe that, but I got wasted in a 110 cutting grass.  And by the large AAA gun of all types.  He got one shot and nailed it... asshole.

 

I wish I knew what the secret is but I have crash landing in the middle of a base and been totally ignored by all the AA and I have crash landed on the far side of a wood so none of the AA can see me but had four of them open up on me through the trees as soon as I stopped and take me apart. :-)

[Royal_Flight]

I'm going to get back on at the weekend and run more trials. I usually fly with a wingman anyway and we get alright results, so a more systematic approach to dragging the flak might be in order.

 

I'm wondering about how the P-39 will fare as a SEAD tool. Fast close to the deck, heavy cannon in a centreline mount with HE rounds, and the engine to the rear might make it a bit more resilient.

 

How is the Airacobra for roll rate?

I've also heard that the Oldsmobile 37mm has quite a low muzzle velocity, so it might not be a case of bowling a fast ball as much as tossing a brick.

 

The bare metal skin might also dazzle the gunners and gain an extra few seconds...

[Dakpilot]

Tired of being sent home trailing smoke or knocked down in flames, I'm taking the war back to the flak.

I've been experimenting with different aircraft types and loadouts for SEAD/DEAD (suppression/destruction of enemy air defences) missions and I've had a few results, but haven't quite cracked it yet and it's still a challenging and risky mission which probably results in being shot down or damaged to the point of forcing an RTB more than half the time.

Part of that is just down to the inherent risks, and the inability to cause morale damage or make the gunners duck plus the (in some cases) super-accurate flak doesn't help matters.

 

 

 

Has anyone else ever set out to deliberately target flak, and if so are there any tips, tricks or techniques that have worked?

Or conversely, what hasn't worked and is worth avoiding?

 

 

 

 

Pretty sure that you can suppress Flack with close hits, the crew will be seen running and ducking for cover, same as when attacking 'soft targets' truck crew can be seen abandoning vehicle and hiding

 

Not sure how long the gun will then remain inactive...but I have definitely experienced this and had screenshots (but cannot find now) although this was a while ago I am sure the feature is still active

 

If working as a pair one this can be useful, although rather hard to see or judge if you suppressed it or not  but it is a good to know

 

Cheers, Dakpilot